Posted by Paul Ferrara: 
It's all negotiable.

Paul

What he said. Because I wouldn't poay you while you're on your lunch break or getting your make up done or even changing clothes.

This is why my shoots last about an hour, if that.

Posted by Myla Chenoa: 
I wouldn't expect too much sympathy from the photographers on this site, most don't even seem to think models should get paid.

whats really funny about this, is that online models are the only people that see photographers as customers..landbased agency rep'd models know that they have to hire good photographers, to get the good paying gigs from the commercial clients..

so yes, the professional photographers see amatuer models as customers.. its the GWCs that are hiring the models..
and FYI..the guy paying gets to make the rules..escort or no escort..

Posted by Mary: 
The internet photography/model relationships seem to be more loose.  I would certainly make it very clear up front what your expectations are.  I would never agree to be paid for just shooting time, the photographer could piss around for hours on the internet or on the phone and ignore you if he likes while I just sit and waste my time. 

Then you aren't dealing with someone who isn't serious about what they're doing. If i have 2 themes in mind, I can have a model in and out within an hour as long as she doesn't bullshit around with touching up her make up, wardrobe and checking her cell phone messages and then (gasp!) calling people back to hold bullshit conversations.

And personally, i'm not going to pay a model for being on a lunch break, because 9 times out of 10 i'm paying for her lunch anyway. When you're at lunch, you're off the clock, that goes with a LOT of jobs.

Posted by Doug Swinskey: 

Posted by Myla Chenoa: 
I wouldn't expect too much sympathy from the photographers on this site, most don't even seem to think models should get paid.

whats really funny about this, is that online models are the only people that see photographers as customers..landbased agency rep'd models know that they have to hire good photographers, to get the good paying gigs from the commercial clients..

so yes, the professional photographers see amatuer models as customers.. its the GWCs that are hiring the models..
and FYI..the guy paying gets to make the rules..escort or no escort..

First off, she's not with an agency. Who cares? That doesn't make her less of a model. So why you're mentioning agencies, I have no clue.

I go though my agency and through myself, and paying for a proof sheet for your first pictures to show to the clients, ah yes I remember being 14, is a one time deal generally. At that point your book is your WORK, not paying for photographers to shoot you.

The hypocrisy in what you're saying is pretty funny. So the models are customers to photographers, but how dare a photographer be a customer to a model? Thank you for proving my point, I guess that's why you quoted me.

Posted by Myla Chenoa: 
I wouldn't expect too much sympathy from the photographers on this site, most don't even seem to think models should get paid.

not true.  Most don't think the photographer should be the one to pay.

So from a model to another model, that is frustrating. I hate when a "photographer" does that, agrees to everything and then at last minute changes what he found acceptable when the original agreement was formed.

It's all part of hashing out the details.  Disagreements happen, it's a part of doing business.  Maybe I'm wrong, but the way I read it, it didn't sound like they had come to any final agreement yet.

I'm sorry you lost the job and suffered unwarrented verbal abuse (that seems to be the norm for those guys so I'm assuming when you say he was rude, that's what you meant), but I would say you are lucky that you didn't shoot with this guy.

The verbal abuse was completely out of line.  No disagreement justfies that and it is not the norm (it certainly shouldn't be).


You won't get much sympathy because, except for the verbal abuse, we all put up with it, photographers and models.  No need to make this into another "us vs them" thread.  It's frustrating but unfortunately a part of the business that you have to learn to deal with if you want to continue with it.  If you think that's bad, it gets even worse.  Just wait till you go through all that, have everything agreed upon and set, get prepared and drive out to the shoot location only to have the other person not show up, no phone call, nothing.  Stay with it long enough and it will happen.

Anyway, Kalika, you do have my sympathy regarding the rudeness.  There's no reason for anyone to be treated that way, especially over a simple dissagreement on terms, and it always saddens me to hear these stories.  Based on what you've told us, I really don't think there is anything you could have done differently that would have improved the situation.  In fact, it sounds like you did a good job of getting the issues out before it was too late, i.e. at the shoot.  I think the best advice is to put it behind you and move on.

Posted by Monsante Bey: 

Posted by Mary: 
The internet photography/model relationships seem to be more loose.  I would certainly make it very clear up front what your expectations are.  I would never agree to be paid for just shooting time, the photographer could piss around for hours on the internet or on the phone and ignore you if he likes while I just sit and waste my time. 

Then you aren't dealing with someone who isn't serious about what they're doing. If i have 2 themes in mind, I can have a model in and out within an hour as long as she doesn't bullshit around with touching up her make up, wardrobe and checking her cell phone messages and then (gasp!) calling people back to hold bullshit conversations.

And personally, i'm not going to pay a model for being on a lunch break, because 9 times out of 10 i'm paying for her lunch anyway. When you're at lunch, you're off the clock, that goes with a LOT of jobs.

Try telling Elite or any other agency that you wont be paying for their models luch hour.  It wont fly, not with crew in the real world.   When you start working with agency crew the rules change

Posted by Monsante Bey: 
as she doesn't bullshit around with touching up her make up

Wow. If you don't use an MUA, don't get mad at your models for wanting to look good.

Posted by Mary: 
I can't even believe we are having this conversation.  The whole internet world is very different then the one I work in.  I'm never called on jobs where photographers are paying to shoot a model so I don't see this sort of thing, it kind of suprises me to be honest. 

I really think the web photographer/ model industry plays by very different rules then the main stream industry.   

Just learning that huh. 


(all comments this week are made by Jack's mama..... no I mean his human for Jack is mussled but  thinking and sulking)

Posted by Jack D Trute: 

Posted by Mary: 
I can't even believe we are having this conversation.  The whole internet world is very different then the one I work in.  I'm never called on jobs where photographers are paying to shoot a model so I don't see this sort of thing, it kind of suprises me to be honest. 

I really think the web photographer/ model industry plays by very different rules then the main stream industry.   

Just learning that huh. 


(all comments this week are made by Jack's mama..... no I mean his human for Jack is mussled but  thinking and sulking)

I'm not really just learning that, it's just starting to really sink in that these worlds are so far apart that they share almost nothing in common other then the titles we call ourselves.   

It seems to be all about TFP, testing, glamour, bikini, nude, fetish type stuff here. Model and photographer relationships, escorts, managers etc, Issues that dont exsist in the commercial, editorial and fashion world. I'm not saying one is better then the other, I am just saying they dont relate much to each other. 

Posted by Mary: 

I'm not really just learning that, it's just starting to really sink in that these worlds are so far apart that they share almost nothing in common other then the titles we call ourselves.   

It seems to be all about TFP, testing, glamour, bikini, nude, fetish type stuff here. Model and photographer relationships, escorts, managers etc, Issues that dont exsist in the commercial, editorial and fashion world. I'm not saying one is better then the other, I am just saying they dont relate much to each other.   

that makes two of us

Posted by Mary: 
I'm not really just learning that, it's just starting to really sink in that these worlds are so far apart that they share almost nothing in common other then the titles we call ourselves.   

It seems to be all about TFP, testing, glamour, bikini, nude, fetish type stuff here. Model and photographer relationships, escorts, managers etc, Issues that dont exsist in the commercial, editorial and fashion world. I'm not saying one is better then the other, I am just saying they dont relate much to each other.

Imagine the frustration of those who want to escape the virtual world of The Matrix, and want to take the red pill, but we just can't find Morpheus?

Posted by Kalika: 
I received an offer to shoot with a photographer in Seattle. I am in Vancouver. At the very beginning of our correspondance I told him my rates, that I would require travel compensation (travelling by train, pretty cheap), and that I need to be allowed to bring an escort with me.

He said this was all fine, and how long could I stay, as he wanted me to be there for several hours (5+). I said I could stay as long as he needed me, and that I would even give a discount on my rates if it was for more than 5 hours, as I realize it ends up being a lot of money for someone who is simply trying to update their portfolio.

Then when we are working out the dates and times, he mentions that he does not want me to bring a male escort-that he would prefer a female escort. I said that my escort would most likely be male, and that if he was having doubts about that, to let me know.

Also, he then said that he would only pay me for time actually in front of the camera. He wanted me to be there for 10 hours and pay me for 3, as he needed to do several set/location changes. I told him this was unacceptable, that I must get paid from the time we begin to the time we finish. This is how I have always done things, and this is my understanding of how others do business. He then seemed very surprised and was quite rude, saying that it wouldn't be worth it to him at my rates (which are average rates).

I am frustrated that I wasted my time organizing a shoot with him, only to have it come to nothing and have him be very rude to me.

Any thoughts, advice, criticism of how I handled this? Any sympathy?? lol

Your first clue should have been that he couldn't find a model in Seattle.

Posted by Mary: 

Posted by Monsante Bey: 

Posted by Mary: 
The internet photography/model relationships seem to be more loose.  I would certainly make it very clear up front what your expectations are.  I would never agree to be paid for just shooting time, the photographer could piss around for hours on the internet or on the phone and ignore you if he likes while I just sit and waste my time. 

Then you aren't dealing with someone who isn't serious about what they're doing. If i have 2 themes in mind, I can have a model in and out within an hour as long as she doesn't bullshit around with touching up her make up, wardrobe and checking her cell phone messages and then (gasp!) calling people back to hold bullshit conversations.

And personally, i'm not going to pay a model for being on a lunch break, because 9 times out of 10 i'm paying for her lunch anyway. When you're at lunch, you're off the clock, that goes with a LOT of jobs.

Try telling Elite or any other agency that you wont be paying for their models luch hour.  It wont fly, not with crew in the real world.   When you start working with agency crew the rules change

I guess I won't be working with them. The model and crew can eat on their own time. If I am paying you are working, not chatting or eating.

Posted by photofashion: 

Posted by Mary: 

I'm not really just learning that, it's just starting to really sink in that these worlds are so far apart that they share almost nothing in common other then the titles we call ourselves.   

It seems to be all about TFP, testing, glamour, bikini, nude, fetish type stuff here. Model and photographer relationships, escorts, managers etc, Issues that dont exsist in the commercial, editorial and fashion world. I'm not saying one is better then the other, I am just saying they dont relate much to each other.   

that makes two of us

well I guess I'm in good company then.  I love your work.

Posted by Mary: 

Posted by Monsante Bey: 

Posted by Mary: 
The internet photography/model relationships seem to be more loose.  I would certainly make it very clear up front what your expectations are.  I would never agree to be paid for just shooting time, the photographer could piss around for hours on the internet or on the phone and ignore you if he likes while I just sit and waste my time. 

Then you aren't dealing with someone who isn't serious about what they're doing. If i have 2 themes in mind, I can have a model in and out within an hour as long as she doesn't bullshit around with touching up her make up, wardrobe and checking her cell phone messages and then (gasp!) calling people back to hold bullshit conversations.

And personally, i'm not going to pay a model for being on a lunch break, because 9 times out of 10 i'm paying for her lunch anyway. When you're at lunch, you're off the clock, that goes with a LOT of jobs.

Try telling Elite or any other agency that you wont be paying for their models luch hour.  It wont fly, not with crew in the real world.   When you start working with agency crew the rules change

While you're trying to be condescending, I used to shoot for an agency. So when i needed girls for my own personal I didn't pay for lunch breaks. That's just common sense.

Secondly, if I hire someone per hour and we reach our time limit, i'm done and you're gone. Period. Slim and Paul have seen me shoot, they know i'm in and out. Most of the time spent is the girl getting ready for the session and/or next session.

BTW, if money is exchanging hands, then I hire and pay the mua. If it's just some BS "take my pictures because I think i'm cute" situation, girlie is on her own. I'll recommend, but... Hey. lol

Posted by Mary: 
I can't even believe we are having this conversation.  The whole internet world is very different then the one I work in.  I'm never called on jobs where photographers are paying to shoot a model so I don't see this sort of thing, it kind of suprises me to be honest. 

I really think the web photographer/ model industry plays by very different rules then the main stream industry.   

I completely agree.

Net modeling made up it's own rules as it grew. I've been on the net for over 7 years and have watched it change and adjust itself into a whole new meaning for modeling. Stick around, it will definitely make you nuts.

Also most of the commercial clients I've worked for paid the model a set fee the same as myself, not by the hour. There were no deductions for going to the ladies room or having something to eat. If the model was being paid $300, that was her pay from the time she arrived until the time she left.
And written logs were kept during those times.

Posted by Kalika: 
I received an offer to shoot with a photographer in Seattle. I am in Vancouver. At the very beginning of our correspondance I told him my rates, that I would require travel compensation (travelling by train, pretty cheap), and that I need to be allowed to bring an escort with me.

He said this was all fine, and how long could I stay, as he wanted me to be there for several hours (5+). I said I could stay as long as he needed me, and that I would even give a discount on my rates if it was for more than 5 hours, as I realize it ends up being a lot of money for someone who is simply trying to update their portfolio.

Then when we are working out the dates and times, he mentions that he does not want me to bring a male escort-that he would prefer a female escort. I said that my escort would most likely be male, and that if he was having doubts about that, to let me know.

Also, he then said that he would only pay me for time actually in front of the camera. He wanted me to be there for 10 hours and pay me for 3, as he needed to do several set/location changes. I told him this was unacceptable, that I must get paid from the time we begin to the time we finish. This is how I have always done things, and this is my understanding of how others do business. He then seemed very surprised and was quite rude, saying that it wouldn't be worth it to him at my rates (which are average rates).

I am frustrated that I wasted my time organizing a shoot with him, only to have it come to nothing and have him be very rude to me.

Any thoughts, advice, criticism of how I handled this? Any sympathy?? lol

My advice is to look at your portfolio and think.

You are aiming your portfolio at the GWC crowd. They are not professional.

If you want to deal with professionals, then you should at least pretend to target your portfolio towards a professional market.

It's all your fault this happened. You are to blame for whom you attract by marketing yourself in the way that you are.

Posted by Myla Chenoa: 
I wouldn't expect too much sympathy from the photographers on this site, most don't even seem to think models should get paid.

So from a model to another model, that is frustrating. I hate when a "photographer" does that, agrees to everything and then at last minute changes what he found acceptable when the original agreement was formed.

I'm sorry you lost the job and suffered unwarrented verbal abuse (that seems to be the norm for those guys so I'm assuming when you say he was rude, that's what you meant), but I would say you are lucky that you didn't shoot with this guy.

Anyone who is concerned about the gender of escort is a red flag for both professional and, most importantly, safety reasons.

I would not expect much understanding from models on this planet, who think a it is a privelidge for a photographer to use his £10,000.00 studio to give them free photos for their ports.

Do you need a chaperone when filling your gas tank?

We all have to take chances in life, otherwise we can sit at home and rot.

I am sorry if the sensitive types are upset by my view, it was not my intention to upset anyone, and I can't take any responsibility for anyone with an hormonal imbalance.

While you're trying to be condescending, I used to shoot for an agency. So when i needed girls for my own personal I didn't pay for lunch breaks. That's just common sense.

I had no intention of sounding condescending, not sure why you think that.

What ever works for you, makes no difference to me.  I was just pointing out that the good agencies like Elite, Ford, IMG etc won't play by those rules. 

Posted by Kalika: 
I received an offer to shoot with a photographer in Seattle. I am in Vancouver. At the very beginning of our correspondance I told him my rates, that I would require travel compensation (travelling by train, pretty cheap), and that I need to be allowed to bring an escort with me.

He said this was all fine, and how long could I stay, as he wanted me to be there for several hours (5+). I said I could stay as long as he needed me, and that I would even give a discount on my rates if it was for more than 5 hours, as I realize it ends up being a lot of money for someone who is simply trying to update their portfolio.

Then when we are working out the dates and times, he mentions that he does not want me to bring a male escort-that he would prefer a female escort. I said that my escort would most likely be male, and that if he was having doubts about that, to let me know.

Also, he then said that he would only pay me for time actually in front of the camera. He wanted me to be there for 10 hours and pay me for 3, as he needed to do several set/location changes. I told him this was unacceptable, that I must get paid from the time we begin to the time we finish. This is how I have always done things, and this is my understanding of how others do business. He then seemed very surprised and was quite rude, saying that it wouldn't be worth it to him at my rates (which are average rates).

I am frustrated that I wasted my time organizing a shoot with him, only to have it come to nothing and have him be very rude to me.

Any thoughts, advice, criticism of how I handled this? Any sympathy?? lol

Posted by Ephotique: 
As for the rudeness issue... the only fact stated in the original post was "...it wouldn't be worth it to him at my rates (which are average rates)."  This statement does not seem to be rude.  It does seem to be a clear statement by the photographer that the cost is not worth it to him.  Where's the rudeness in that?

What was stated in the orignal post was, "He then seemed very surprised and was quite rude, saying that it wouldn't be worth it to him at my rates..."

I interpret this to be a statement by the model that the photographer was rude to her, along with a brief paraphrase of his opinion rather than a specific quote of said rudeness.  Granted, if all he actually said was, "it wouldn't be worth it to me at your rates" I wouldnt consider that alone to be particularly rude.  But the models statement seems to me to indicate that other things were said that haven't been relayed to us which the model felt was rude.

If this were a court of law, I would expect quotes etc., but given the way she presented herself in her post and the fact that all she wanted was a little sympathy and advice on an internet forum, I'm willing to give her the benefit of doubt.

Posted by Myla Chenoa: 
I wouldn't expect too much sympathy from the photographers on this site, most don't even seem to think models should get paid.

What makes you think that a photographer doesn't want to get paid??  When someone goes to Glamour shots and have pics done do they expect to get them for free??  When a model wants to do a specific type of shot (copying anothers idea), I have to pay her to do a photo she specifically wants??