DigitalCMH wrote:
Ignore the differences between cash and photos.  The way you and everyone should look at this is as compensation.  If they want pay AND photos. Asking for $150+photos or $1,000 cash only are the same thing, compensation.  It is up to two the parties involved to negotiate.

Examples:

If a model is willing to shoot TFP, you're giving them photos right? right.

If a model is willing to accept a paid job at $150, you do NOT want to give them photos, right?  right.

What if the model said hey, how about I reduce my rate to $25 and can I then get a copy of the photos?  This amounts to them paying $125 for the photos.  Are you opposed to this as well?  how about if they said $5 and a CD?

If this makes sense, then no photographer should be offended/bothered by a model that asks for $$ and photos.  It's up to you to say yes or no.  And if you say no, it is then up to them to decide yes or no. 

If either of you say no, then there is no shoot.  If both of you say Yes, then you have successfully negotiated a shoot along with expected compensation.  Everyone should be happy.  If you're not, then it was your fault for not properly negotiating what you wanted in the first place.

Yes.
Excellent detail.

The Picture Place wrote:
Hello everyone,

My name is Danny and I recently got on to MM and have been contacting models for TFCD and paid sessions. My question is if a model turns down a TFCD offer but accepts a paid offer is it reasonable for the model to exspect images as well without me charging for my services? Should the model not respect my time, services and product as valuable also? I am very good at what I do and am very generous. I'm not looking to get something for nothing, but when I am paying how far in being generous should I be? Models, photographers, stylists and make-up artists please give me some feed back.

Thanks

jusjen77 wrote:
That does not necessarily mean she did not need your images or that she was greedy. Some models do this work because they need the money. I accept very few TFCD shoots not because i dont need images but because I get paid to model that is what i do. You always need more images. I always negotiate images into my paid shoots. If i get paid for the shoot and i get no images then all i got was money and i might as well get another job just for that. What have i got to show in my port then. this is what i dont understand. If u pay a model for images why wouldnt u want her to have some to show in her port to advertise you as a photographer and to show what u can do? please explain that to me.

OK, let me play devils advocate for a moment:

"If u pay a model for images why wouldnt u want her to have some to show in her port to advertise you as a photographer and to show what u can do?"

How about because I don't get any return value from your "advertising"?  The people you will be showing your portfolio to may not be people who hire photographers for the type of work I do.

If you want something to show in your port, then that something should be of value to you.  You value your time, abilities and image enough to charge the photographer, why wouldn't you value the photographers time, abilities and product enough to compensate him for photos for you to put in your portfolio?

Again, just playing devils advocate, not saying that's always the way it is.  It varies depending on the situation.  As others have said, if it's a commercial shoot for some other client, a tear sheet at least is probably in order.  But if a photographer is just shooting for their own book for example, why should you be paid your normal rate and get photos for free?  If they're worthwhile enough for you to have in your portfolio, shouldn't you at least negotiate a reduced rate in echange for the photos?

jusjen77 wrote:
This is the situation. I thought that when the model turned down the TFCD offer that meant they didn't need my style of images. When I offered to pay and we discussed the shoot the model now like the images that I am wanting to shoot and wants them in their book.

That does not necessarily mean she did not need your images or that she was greedy. Some models do this work because they need the money. I accept very few TFCD shoots not because i dont need images but because I get paid to model that is what i do. You always need more images. I always negotiate images into my paid shoots. If i get paid for the shoot and i get no images then all i got was money and i might as well get another job just for that. What have i got to show in my port then. this is what i dont understand. If u pay a model for images why wouldnt u want her to have some to show in her port to advertise you as a photographer and to show what u can do? please explain that to me.

Its not that I wouldn't want them to have my images, because yes this is a good advertisement for me, I 'm new to offering TFCD, in the past I have always been paid for my services (the clients came to me and paid my rates) and now that I'm offering my services for trade and being turned down, then I offer to pay their rate it seemed unfair to also give my images for free (but again I think it will be good advertising).

As for a paid model not receiving images after a shoot and saying that they should just go do some other type of job is kinda of strange. That's like saying if I get paid to photograph a family and can't use the results to promote myself (which does happen) I shouldn't photograph that family. I'm a professional and got paid to do my job.

I'm not getting paid myself, this session is only for my website and portfolio.

Claire Elizabeth wrote:
Another subject that has been beaten to death lol. Paid models should NEVER expect images, although some generous photographers will provide them.

I am one of those generous artists who provides high res CD images of my choosing
with my dgold logo inset for the model's personal portfolio use, and, I pay a cash
an agreed upon rate plus expenses.
I think the aforementioned is fair given I require a signed Adult Model Release Form
for my protection and copyright of images.
However, I am not a paid fashion/professional photographer who derives income from his/her avocation....business is, after all, business.
david
dgoldphoto.com

jusjen77 wrote:
This is the situation. I thought that when the model turned down the TFCD offer that meant they didn't need my style of images. When I offered to pay and we discussed the shoot the model now like the images that I am wanting to shoot and wants them in their book.

That does not necessarily mean she did not need your images or that she was greedy. Some models do this work because they need the money. I accept very few TFCD shoots not because i dont need images but because I get paid to model that is what i do. You always need more images. I always negotiate images into my paid shoots. If i get paid for the shoot and i get no images then all i got was money and i might as well get another job just for that. What have i got to show in my port then. this is what i dont understand. If u pay a model for images why wouldnt u want her to have some to show in her port to advertise you as a photographer and to show what u can do? please explain that to me.

I don't get this sense of entitlement to images for paid work. If you want images, Why shouldn't a model pay for the images with either their time, thier money (imagine  that actually paying a photograper for images you want...gasp!!) or combination of both?

Why would you want to do a trade shoot if you are getting a steady supply of images from those photographers that don't value thier images? I don't blame you for not doing TFP work; there is no incentive for you to do it.

kisstheeaves wrote:
As a model who mostly shoots for Paid time ... I *never* expect any other form of compensation from the photographer unless discussed prior. 

However ... if I enjoyed the shoot I don't hesitate to ASK if I may have one of the finished pieces to add to my portfolio.  In the end it is all about art and I am as big a collector as the next person.  I do know though that the photographer always has the right to refuse me my request. 

I find that most photogaphers are very happy to give you *one* photo that they love when done editing the shoot.  Then again I've never asked for copies of them all ...

Don't you feel it's just tacky to ask and put the photographer on the spot? I mean what is going to say if the shoot is going well and thw two of you are getting along and you pop the question?  I think the majority of photographers don't want to come off as jerks and want a good reference from the model (modelsdo talk to each other) they work with.  What if the photographer says no? Is the photographer willing to risk killing the mood by saying no to your request?  I feel it's on par with me asking a model to shoot nudes when we agree that we wouldn't shoot them. I feel that if a model needs images then they should state that in the negotations so that the compensation is clear.

I think it's unfair and the least and tacky and unprofessional at the most to ask the photographer DURING or RIGHT AFTER A SHOOT that question. The model should be focused on the shoot not on thier portfolio.  On the other hand I can see making the request a day or so after the shoot when the photographer may have had a chance to review the images.

The Picture Place wrote:
This is the situation. I thought that when the model turned down the TFCD offer that meant they didn't need my style of images. When I offered to pay and we discussed the shoot the model now like the images that I am wanting to shoot and wants them in their book.

I have been known to be pretty generous about alot of things but I would absolutely charge this model and the price would reflect the value of what she received - small amount = very limited rights, larger amounts = greater rights.

For her to expect payment from you and then to inquire about free digital or print format is a little over the top in my book.

The Picture Place wrote:
This is the situation. I thought that when the model turned down the TFCD offer that meant they didn't need my style of images. When I offered to pay and we discussed the shoot the model now like the images that I am wanting to shoot and wants them in their book.

Well they might just need paying - and not have free time to work for images when they have bills to pay! (Tho, granted, if they are overawed ... they will often pose just for your images, its true)
Personally I dislike knowing there are photos of me out there that I havent seen at all...or  really seen well / let alone got a copy of - especialy Nudes -  and appreciate all the people who have given me a low or better still, high  resolution cd of them!!
Of course, do not expect editing - unless it was TFCD
ps
I can edit well myself
but many photogs would understandably want quality control and no changes made so thats where it could get sticky- unless you just wait for the images he liked and edited then he gives them to you, why not
ADVERTISING  is cool

The Picture Place wrote:
Hello everyone,

My name is Danny and I recently got on to MM and have been contacting models for TFCD and paid sessions. My question is if a model turns down a TFCD offer but accepts a paid offer is it reasonable for the model to exspect images as well without me charging for my services? Should the model not respect my time, services and product as valuable also? I am very good at what I do and am very generous. I'm not looking to get something for nothing, but when I am paying how far in being generous should I be? Models, photographers, stylists and make-up artists please give me some feed back.

Thanks

If she shows up with some good snacks, or a home made pie or cake, then give her some images. If the cake is real good send her to me.

Claire Elizabeth wrote:
Another subject that has been beaten to death lol. Paid models should NEVER expect images, although some generous photographers will provide them.

Here we go again . If I like a model's look and she wants to be paid , I often suggest a Half & Half ;  a low pay rate plus images , to be negotiated before the shoot.
Just my .02 cents worth. lol