Harry Young wrote:
... why could the same NOT work for photography? if the document -was- notarized, then that -should- make it a legal document to "cover the photogs **s" ...yes???

Harry, such a document could be used in photography.  But it rarely is, for the simple reason that there is rarely a need for it.  The OP clearly doesn't see a need for it (it doesn't protect her), and the photographer is mature and trusting enough not to see a need for it.

Photographers with less maturity and/or less trust could ask for such a document.  However, it would give them very little protection:  It could not authorize the guardian to approve anything that the parent could not legally approve.  Consequently, if the photographer is going to do something illegal, the presence of a guardian would not protect him.  If he is going to act legally, the protection of the guardian would not be legally required.

TXPhotog wrote:

1.  Has it occurred to you that the OP is the model, and the minor?  Even if what you were saying were true, it acts to protect her, not make her situation worse. 

She is asking, from her perspective, if what she is doing is a problem FOR HER.  Your answer, beside continuing the unreasoning paranoia of this thread, is not responsive to her question or her situation.

2.  You live in a city in which every day (during season) fashion models under 18 are shot by photographers, often in skimpy outfits, with no legal guardian present.  Are you even slightly influenced by that fact?

No, I thought not. 

The truth is that such shoots take place routinely and without problems in your own city - but you would rather condemn everyone involved in the industry anyway.

Not helpful.

Her question cold also be read to be asking in part why photographers are so reluctant.  This is what most of the responders have been answering on.  Why many not only don't prefer to shoot minors with out legal guardians, but just don't period.

As for minor models in Miami....absolutely.  But if you think the agencies don't have legal guardian documents, and don't have documents agreeing as to what will and will not be done at a shoot, you are kidding yourself.  And all of the clients and photographers I know will not shoot without the agency sending an agency escort or parent to the shoot.

When it comes to TFP, seeing a photographer does not have the client liability umbrella, he/she is even more reluctant to take any risks with working with models unless there are multiple layers of protection for them.

Apfel Photography wrote:
As for minor models in Miami....absolutely.  But if you think the agencies don't have legal guardian documents, and don't have documents agreeing as to what will and will not be done at a shoot, you are kidding yourself.

I'm not kidding myself one bit.  I know for a fact that it is not true in most agencies.  I will concede the possibility that some agency somewhere does this (but have never encountered it, and do not believe it to be true).  Again, you are making that up.

Apfel Photography wrote:
And all of the clients and photographers I know will not shoot without the agency sending an agency escort or parent to the shoot.

Then you must have a very narrow circle of clients and photographer friends.

Agencies aren't babysitters.  They do not attend photo shoots.  For most "underage" fashion models (those 16 and 17) the parents are not local, and even if they are, their presence on set is not required.  Again, you are making this stuff up.

Apfel Photography wrote:
When it comes to TFP, seeing a photographer does not have the client liability umbrella, he/she is even more reluctant to take any risks with working with models unless there are multiple layers of protection for them.

There is no such thing as a "client liability umbrella".  If the photographer does something illegal, he is responsible for it.  If he does not, he is not.  Again, you are making things up.

Do you seriously believe that agencies send "escorts" along on test shoots that they send their models to?  Are you that out of touch with reality?

(Silly me, of course you are.  You think this is about Disney World.  Sigh.)

TXPhotog wrote:
2.  The OP is in another country, not Texas.  US law in general, and Texas law in particular, does not apply to her.

Texas was a separate country at one time, and supposedly reserves the right to become one again.



And besides, what other state flags make a better swimsuit pattern than ours?

ImagesByJames wrote:
Except for your actual parents (or court appointed guardian) -- your escort cannot make any legal decisions for you.  As a minor, you cannot make any "legal" decisions or be forced to comply to any agreement/decision you make.

The parent or guardian is more a protection for the photographer - in case the model turns "psycho." (grin)

A minor female accusing a photographer of doing something unsavory is major "he-said/she-said" in which his word will count for very little.  Especially for lingerie, sheer, implied - which essentially means that in some of the United States - could mean the electric chair for the photographers (just kidding).

A model release co-signed by a parent is not truly enforcable unless the parent is APPROVING the work that the model is doing.  After all, without a parent there - the parent could later claim "I was never informed the photographer was going to photograph my innocent little girl in a BIKINI!  I would have NEVER allowed that if I were PERMITTED to stay."  (See how it can get bad for a photographer in a hurry?)

Wait 3 months - and focus on your school studies.  Long after you are too old to model - your education will keep you earning.

James

Sound advice, above....follow it.

If your parent signs you with an agency and that contract allows them to act in the absence of your parent...then that agent may accomapny you on that shoot...the wording is usually quite specific on what is, and what is not, being empowered for the agent. That would be your only options available on a shoot with me...a parent or a documented agent...period.

I know that in today's society...you can grow up very fast...with all the information available to you....but you still haven't gotten the nessicary life experiences and sense of perspective that comes with age...at 17 is is vertually IMPOSSIBLE to get a true mental grip on what your life might be like at 30. Eighteen, is not much better, but that is the standard the the law has set for most things. How much has your mind and perspective changed since you were 6 or 7 years old? I am 48 years old...I have been fully functioning ADULT for longer than you have been alive....not exactly a fair position for you to start barganing from...is it? PLEASE...take your time growing up...your life is likely to be a lot longer than you realize. Choices once taken...tend to carry forward...all on their own...not everywhere is where you want to go....

Anderson Artwork wrote:
Sound advice, above....follow it.

No, it was not sound advice.  It was more of this paternalistic nonsense that people here seem to feel the need to say.

Anderson Artwork wrote:
If your parent signs you with an agency and that contract allows them to act in the absence of your parent...then that agent may accomapny you on that shoot...the wording is usually quite specific on what is, and what is not, being empowered for the agent. That would be your only options available on a shoot with me...a parent or a documented agent...period.

That is completely wrong.  Absolutely, completely wrong.

Nothing in the law of British Columbia say any such thing.  Nothing.  You just made it up.  (There's a lot of that going on in this thread!)

Your profile says you have a relationship with an agency in Kansas City.  Ask them if it is their practice to go on shoots with models.  Then ask them if it's the practice of agencies in Vancouver, British Columbia to go on shoots with models.  Report back to us the results.

Anderson Artwork wrote:
I know that in today's society...you can grow up very fast...with all the information available to you....but you still haven't gotten the nessicary life experiences and sense of perspective that comes with age...at 17 is is vertually IMPOSSIBLE to get a true mental grip on what your life might be like at 30.

So three months from now she will be able to "get a grip" but not now?  And you know that how?

She is asking about shooting clothed pictures, with a chaperone.  What in the world is so all-fired horrible about that, that it requires "mature judgment and a mental grip of what (her) life will be like at 30"? 

And her mother has already reviewed the plan and signed off on it.  Who are you to tell her mother that she's wrong?

More paternalistic crap.  Could it ever occur to someone like you that other people - other models, other mothers - are capable of reaching their own perfectly valid conclusions, and they don't need people like you trying to tell them how wrong they are?

You talk about "perspective".  Please try to get one.  She's talking about a freaking photo shoot!  Do you really think that a simple photo shoot is this big an emotional threat to a model?

If so, I weep for your models.

Scott Aitken wrote:
However, there is one possible legal reason for concern. If a parent signs a model release, and is not present during the photo shoot, it is possible that the release could be voidable.

Possible perhaps.  If not being present was the only offense and nothing else in impropriety and the photographer shoots primarily for commericial purpose then it would probably go to reasonable expectation.  The hobbyist "might" find greater peril toward being advantageous toward the model where a commercial photographer would not. One is geared toward commercial application and the other is not.  Not certain on that, but it seems logical.

It would also seem logical that anything of this nature (Releases signed by the parent with full understanding) would be taken ICB (individual case basis) and would be viewed to the extent of the harm done.  No harm, no foul.

Scott Aitken wrote:
A release gives permission for the photographer to use their likeness for commercial use. But how can someone give such permission if they don't know what images were shot?

There is no requirement that the person signing the release know what was shot.

I have signed literally hundreds of releases for models (with a power of attorney to do so) for commercial jobs with major advertising agencies and Fortune 500 clients.  Sometimes the release has been signed before the shoot, other times after.  In no case was I present at the shoot; in no case did I know the nature of what was shot; and in no case did anyone ever suggest the tiniest bit of problem with that.

In the cases I am aware of where the issue of someone signing for another has gone to trial, knowledge of the images has never been an issue.

I think you are making a problem where there is none.

TXPhotog wrote:
Susan, your post has done what such posts usually do:  attracted the paranoid segment of our community.  Things are not nearly as stark and forbidding as they are made out to be on the Internet.  Please disregard nearly everything you have heard in this thread so far - it bears little relationship to the real world.

It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders, and a responsible, caring mother.  Those two things will go a long way.  Nothing you are doing is illegal, immoral or fattening.  Carry on.

I agree.

If you are a professional photographer and shooting a commercial shoot it is very doubtful it is just going to be the model and photographer at the shoot.

There will probably be a makeup artist, photo assistant, art director and possibly some one for wardrobe at the very least. As long as a release is signed by legal guardian and the particulars are explained I dont see why the model has to worry about her safety.

I was recently on a fashion style shoot with a girl that was only 16. Everything was explained the the parents before the shoot. Mom dropped her off at 9:00 in the morning and picked her up at 5:00 no problem.

Abdiel Urcullu Photo wrote:
i'd say just wait. i'm glad u r bringing friends/boyfriend, but they are not ur legal parents.. who is signing model releases? i hope it's not ur friend and boyfriend cause someone (the photographers) can get screwed if they let that happen

If you read the post clearly you would see that it says that my mother signs all of my release forms.

nathan combs wrote:

the difference come in to as where you live and how much $$$$ you have in say LA, CA you can get a way with a LOT more than in Waynesboro VA like i sed it is interpretation of the law and people at say a big copney like Victoria secret or some thing can got a way with more because the can afford the attorneys and such hear if i photoed the girl that started the thread in what she is wearing i WOULD get arrested for child porn no qustens asked i could yell all i wonted that it is legal but i am a frad it would fall on deaf ears

1. No you wouldn't get arrested, you clearly are assuming and know NOTHING about laws.

2. For the last time I am CANADIAN the things that you say about AMERICAN laws are falling on deaf ears because it has nothing to do with my situation. Stop centering this around the american public, when I'm asking for advice about Canadians.

I Try not to believe american stereotypes, but boy, you make it hard!

Apfel Photography wrote:

Suzan Aktug wrote:

I'm homeschooled. I start university in the fall, I'm on a break. haha. Thanks for the advice though, every little bit helps

I am confused, I thought your mom worked two jobs to keep the family afloat?  Who does the home schooling?  Just curious because in FL and MA, even if there several parents involved in the overall curriculum, one of each ot the children's parent must teach as well.  Maybe it is different in Canada.

I homeschool myself, it's a different sort of program. If I need help with something there is a self paced school down the road that I can go to for a couple hours and get extra help when I need it.  Mainstream school was not for me I guess. I taught myself everything that I know, and was able to work, help my family, and grow into my own person without the prison walls of highschool.

In no way, shape or form was I asking WHY photographers don't let this happen, because I have yet to come upon an instance where it's been an issue. I was asking about it for MY information and MY protection. Clearly, no one actually read my post.

Anderson Artwork wrote:

Sound advice, above....follow it.

If your parent signs you with an agency and that contract allows them to act in the absence of your parent...then that agent may accomapny you on that shoot...the wording is usually quite specific on what is, and what is not, being empowered for the agent. That would be your only options available on a shoot with me...a parent or a documented agent...period.

I know that in today's society...you can grow up very fast...with all the information available to you....but you still haven't gotten the nessicary life experiences and sense of perspective that comes with age...at 17 is is vertually IMPOSSIBLE to get a true mental grip on what your life might be like at 30. Eighteen, is not much better, but that is the standard the the law has set for most things. How much has your mind and perspective changed since you were 6 or 7 years old? I am 48 years old...I have been fully functioning ADULT for longer than you have been alive....not exactly a fair position for you to start barganing from...is it? PLEASE...take your time growing up...your life is likely to be a lot longer than you realize. Choices once taken...tend to carry forward...all on their own...not everywhere is where you want to go....

Oh my gosh, you're entirely right. What have I been thinking? I was assuming that I was a fully functional adult, and that EVERYONE should see me as much older than I am. I completely forgot that because I'm 17, the fact that I've had a full time job for three years, I am still justa tiny little girl, who is just praying and begging to be taken advantage of. Not to mention. I'm planning on stepping up and hooking myself up in the porn industry soon. That will make me a REAL model. Because God knows, my dream is to be a REAL model, not to go to university and gain my PHD in SEXUAL THERAPY, where modelling photos are bound to come back and haunt me, because as everyone knows, a sexual therapist who used to dabble in modelling when she was younger, is the worst kind of therapist.

Oh, I also forgot that apparently, I'm an American Citizen, not a Canadian....

Silly me.

Suzan Aktug wrote:

Oh my gosh, you're entirely right. What have I been thinking? I was assuming that I was a fully functional adult, and that EVERYONE should see me as much older than I am. I completely forgot that because I'm 17, the fact that I've had a full time job for three years, I am still justa tiny little girl, who is just praying and begging to be taken advantage of. Not to mention. I'm planning on stepping up and hooking myself up in the porn industry soon. That will make me a REAL model. Because God knows, my dream is to be a REAL model, not to go to university and gain my PHD in SEXUAL THERAPY, where modelling photos are bound to come back and haunt me, because as everyone knows, a sexual therapist who used to dabble in modelling when she was younger, is the worst kind of therapist.

Oh, I also forgot that apparently, I'm an American Citizen, not a Canadian....

Silly me.

RFLMAO  Hell of a response, i love that.

Th elaws are different in canada and you know them better than anybody here, or at least who is not here or commenting/commented so far.

If your mom meets the photographer and everythingis kosher i see no problem with the photo shoot happening. First instincts are better in person and after a few minutes of conversation you know if the person is a wack job, thats not rocket science.

Since your so close to being legal then it really does not make much difference, if your a whacko now, you will still be a wacko in 3 months. I would either wait a little longer or find a photographer that is comfortable with meeting your mom beforehand or talk to her on the phone. I am sure a phone call could be made also.
Come to america and i will do photos for you.

area291 wrote:
Dear TX,
A few years ago, as part of developing an agency package (which included characters for the talent division) for a 15 year old we shot over a dozen times.  Her mother would bring her to the studio, have a cup of coffee or coke while she (model) was in make-up and when it was time to shoot mom would say on her way out the door, "Have Fun!  Remember, there's homework to do after this."

Is there a statute of limitations on holding off those coming after me and mom?

Signed,
Hopefully Not Arrested Development

PS:  I'm also worried about child labor laws.  Mom thought it was a good idea for her to clean the studio to help offset costs.  Yikes!

Actually, laws vary around the county.  In California, a parent is required for a commercial photo shoot (and studio teachers for most kinds of video/film projects).  However, there is nothing that I am aware of in California law which requires a parent to be present for portfolio or non-commercial shoots.

California has very strict labor laws, but the point is to protect a minor from inappropriate labor practices not merely having a picture taken.  If you read the law any other way, you could never operate a portrait studio (or Glamour Shots) in the state since so many of those photos are taken of minors.

I don't expect you in the pokey any time soon.

Suzan Aktug wrote:

1. No you wouldn't get arrested, you clearly are assuming and know NOTHING about laws.

2. For the last time I am CANADIAN the things that you say about AMERICAN laws are falling on deaf ears because it has nothing to do with my situation. Stop centering this around the american public, when I'm asking for advice about Canadians.

I Try not to believe american stereotypes, but boy, you make it hard!

i was just pointing out that laws are different EVERY where state to state country to country this also gos to how thaws laws are interped i just know where i live that it would be concerned kid porn not becuse it is not where you are but hear it is VERY conservative and all any one would see IS that your under 18 and in undwhere legal or not i still go to jall and have a BIG Court battle to go throw and i would lose my job

TXPhotog wrote:
There are two "legal issues" here.  One is simple and already being dealt with:  the release.  The mother signed the release, so it is legal, and no "power of attorney" is required.

In my experience with Canadian law, a model release signed by the mother prior to the shot is useless, the girl could easily argue she was forced into posing in a 'dirty way' after she got to a shoot, with or without the mothers consent.

A prior release, signed by the mother will grant a photographer some protection but in Canada at the very least, model releases should be signed after the shoot is completed and images available for the model / legal guardian to review.

Now ... that said, I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV so my advice is pretty much worthless.

Suzan Aktug wrote:
I understand that some photographers do not want to shoot a minor without a parent present, but in my situation, it's more or less impossible, and if the release is signed, is it really so bad that my 'escort' is not related to me?

Hi Susan,

The photographers are worried about 2 things. First that you'll say they demanded 'things' from you, that you would not do with a parent there and secondly, that the photos will not be released for use because your guardian was not present to approve the shots.

The easiest way to deal with this is to explain to the photographer that your parent is not available, offer to let them meet with her at a time other than the shoot and let them explain the process to her.

On the day of the shoot, bring a friend for your own safety but not a boyfriend, photographers hate boyfriends (it has to do with the relationship between you and the photographer, there's usually a lot of giggling and conversation, which makes some boyfriends jeleous so it's best not to have them there). Instead, bring a friend, male or female who can keep out of the way.

just my 2 cents.

thisismyurl wrote:

In my experience with Canadian law, a model release signed by the mother prior to the shot is useless, the girl could easily argue she was forced into posing in a 'dirty way' after she got to a shoot, with or without the mothers consent.

A prior release, signed by the mother will grant a photographer some protection but in Canada at the very least, model releases should be signed after the shoot is completed and images available for the model / legal guardian to review.

Now ... that said, I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV so my advice is pretty much worthless.

Very good advice. My model releases require the signature of the model (or her legal guardian) prior to the shoot and again after the shoot in the last section that states something to the effect that 'no inappropriate or illegal activies occured by either the model, photographer, assistant(s), or anyone else affiliated or expressively employed by Portland Filmworks, before, during, or after the completion of the shoot." Signed and dated immediately after the shoot and before the model leaves.

That provides my studio and personnal, along with the model, that would be seen as solid evidence in any court (Canadian or American) if signed and dated.

I review the model release before the shot and point out that section before the model or her legal guardian signs the first part of the release.

/Tim

Suzan Aktug wrote:

Oh my gosh, you're entirely right. What have I been thinking? I was assuming that I was a fully functional adult, and that EVERYONE should see me as much older than I am. I completely forgot that because I'm 17, the fact that I've had a full time job for three years, I am still justa tiny little girl, who is just praying and begging to be taken advantage of. Not to mention. I'm planning on stepping up and hooking myself up in the porn industry soon. That will make me a REAL model. Because God knows, my dream is to be a REAL model, not to go to university and gain my PHD in SEXUAL THERAPY, where modelling photos are bound to come back and haunt me, because as everyone knows, a sexual therapist who used to dabble in modelling when she was younger, is the worst kind of therapist.

Oh, I also forgot that apparently, I'm an American Citizen, not a Canadian....

Silly me.

You seem to be a very level headed girl/young lady.  Congrats on your accomplishments and best of luck to you.

I am 17, not 18 until next year.  I am signed with an agency in NY.  I do not get an escort from my agency to any casting, gosee, shoot or meeting.  Like yourself, I am capable of doing it myself, although the agency does have guardianship over me for legal reason TXPhoto already stated.  I know you are in Canada, not in the states, but TX seems to be onto something and just trying to help you avoid a lot of bad advice on here.

Again, best of luck to you and your career.  Say Hi to MOM for me.
-Zac

Zachary F wrote:
I am 17, not 18 until next year.  I am signed with an agency in NY.  I do not get an escort from my agency to any casting, gosee, shoot or meeting.  Like yourself, I am capable of doing it myself, although the agency does have guardianship over me for legal reason TXPhoto already stated.

Oh my.  Reality intrudes its head into a perfectly good paranoid fantasy.  Now what will we do?

Yes, Zachary, that's the way the real world works.  Once you get off the Internet, with all it's strange notions, things tend to get a lot more rational.

nathan combs wrote:

i was just pointing out that laws are different EVERY where state to state country to country this also gos to how thaws laws are interped i just know where i live that it would be concerned kid porn not becuse it is not where you are but hear it is VERY conservative and all any one would see IS that your under 18 and in undwhere legal or not i still go to jall and have a BIG Court battle to go throw and i would lose my job

I'm sorry, I can barely understand a word of this post.

TXPhotog wrote:

Oh my.  Reality intrudes its head into a perfectly good paranoid fantasy.  Now what will we do?

Yes, Zachary, that's the way the real world works.  Once you get off the Internet, with all it's strange notions, things tend to get a lot more rational.

Forgot to thank you TX, for all your wonderful sound advice

Anjel Britt wrote:
I thought Anderson was being very nice...what a rude response 2 him - it doesnt impress me at all! Kinda proves his point about you not being an adult yet, tho many here are equally egotistical and sarcastic!
Also as for NOBODY READING - I read your posts.
First you are a minor then you are legally ok after 14? You say have held a full time job for 3 years and this while you are being home schooled by an absent single parent.

Hmm. These forums are pushing even my gullibilty these days!

Never the less I stand by MY ENCOURAGEMENT THAT YOU DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE...

Namaste   -   and good luck too

I never said that I was legally okay after 14. Someone else did. And how DARE you call me a liar. I can't believe some people. Also, don't you DARE call my mother absent, my family cannot help the way that we turned out and it's people like you that make people like me want to feel ashamed of my upbringing. I can't help it my father abandoned me, and my four brothers and fled the country, I can't HELP IT that my mother had no other choice than to take on as many jobs as possible to help raise her children in the best possible way. I CANNOT HELP THESE SITUATIONS, and the fact that you would even consider saying that I'm lying is possibly the most rude thing of all that I've heard.

I never said that my mother homeschooled me, as you may have read in the posts you apparently fully read. I taught myself, and there is a school I can go to if I need help. I was not homeschooled by force, that was by choice, I did not 'fit in' to highschool, so I chose to leave a follow my own path. Yet again, I apologize for being human and not having the typical perfect upbringing

You're a horrible person for saying such things, you should be ashamed of yourself. I'm sorry not everyone had a perfect upbringing, and just because I'm young that means I've had everything handed to me on a silver platter. I'm very happy if you never had to go through these things, but don't you dare call me a liar. You're 36 years old, old enough to BE MY MOTHER (granted, my mom is 52), time for you to grow up I'd say.

Long story short, and let my 'immature age' come out a bit F**k you.