WG Rowland wrote:
What's more important:

- making it?
- or self-respect?

It depends on the model.

What about those models who don't have self respect... then all of a sudden, they make it big and they think they are Miss Hollywood.  Whatevers!

WG Rowland wrote:
What's more important:

- making it?
- or self-respect?

Specifically.. A lot of the advice I see repeatedly given beyond makeup and craft is: Figure out how to get comfortable getting shit on by insiders until you're finally in a position to shit on others..

That's "making it"...

Is it worth it?  Would you sell your dignity to be rich and famous?  Be honest.. This could be ONE HELL of an enlightening discussion..

Actually as a life long photograher, now retired, I think your perspective is way off base. Many years ago when I was learning and trying to become established, I was definitely not an "insider", but rather than being "shit on" by insiders, I received tremendous help and advice. Soometimes, maybe even often, the critiques I received were not couched in nice, polite terms.
Sometimes blunt and rude, they were intended to help me refine my craft and my business skills. One art director even tossed my expensive portfolio in his trash can, in front of me. But I listened and learned. Within about eight months I began getting assignments from that same art director. It might have been self satisfying to believe I was being "shit on" by "insiders", it might even have been calming to think about my turn to shit on others coming at some time in the future.   But I realized instead of being shit on, I was getting lessons from those who knew more than I knew about the industry. 

Now I don't know your circumstances and your skill level, I wanted to write this before checking out the quality of your work. You have a choice to make. You can weep and wail about "insiders" shitting on you, or you can listen, evaluate the info you are given and grow. But maybe pissing and moaning is easier?

WG Rowland wrote:
I woulda posted this in Off-Topic, but the more I read and learn the more I think it fits into a discussion of the industry in general..

This is mainly to models, but photogs feel free to chime in as well..

What's more important:

- making it?
- or self-respect?

Specifically.. A lot of the advice I see repeatedly given beyond makeup and craft is: Figure out how to get comfortable getting shit on by insiders until you're finally in a position to shit on others..

That's "making it"...

Is it worth it?  Would you sell your dignity to be rich and famous?  Be honest.. This could be ONE HELL of an enlightening discussion..

Interesting question.  And a valid one, too, I suppose.

I've no interest in selling my dignity to be rich and famous.  That option was removed from the table the moment I decided to step behind the camera with the intent to earn a living.  Why?

Photographers don't get famous.

Ask the common person walking the street and he or she can probably name a couple of very dead fine art photographers.  And one of the names will certainly be Ansel Adams.  But naming a fashion photographer?  People whose interests in fashion only extend to how the clothes look on them in the store don't pay attention to that. 

Ad-work pays obscene sums of money but the photographer doesn't become a household name from it.  The layman doesn't know the name of the guy who shot the Pepsi ads or the Von Dutch campaign or whatever eventhough you and I might.

"Fame" is for a handful of people out of the other millions who get in front of the camera.  I'm not interested in fame...

...only earning a paycheck.

Doug Lester wrote:
Now I don't know your circumstances and your skill level, I wanted to write this before checking out the quality of your work. You have a choice to make. You can weep and wail about "insiders" shitting on you, or you can listen, evaluate the info you are given and grow. But maybe pissing and moaning is easier?

This isn't about me.. I'm not in photography with an eye on making money, and I'm a worse critic of my own work than anyone else ever will be.. I started this thread based on a, quite possibly misguided, perception of the fashion and modeling world, what one has to do to "make it big", and the massive number of people lining up to get there at all costs. 

You don't have to shit on me to make me piss and moan.. It's my first language (which explains my many mistakes in English).

Although now that we're here.. Yes.. I would consider an editor throwing my work in the trash in front of me to "make a point" an example of getting shit on..  And it does add to my perception..  Did it make you tougher?  Apparently.  Did it make you work harder?  Apparently since you're now selling work to this same editor.  Is the world a tough place?  You bet.

Is it right to throw civility out the window to give an amateur the understanding that other people are going to throw civility out the window?  That's the part I'm questioning.

And all I'm asking for in this thread is people's individual views on the matter.

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
What you are suggesting is that it might be necessary to give up your self-respect to be successful.  You have framed this question as an either/or.  Where is it written that you will succeed simply by doing something you will later regret?

Didn't mean to imply that giving up self-respect was a key to success..

The thread's not about what does it take to be successful.. It's about what are you willing to do?  Just trying to get a little random (and therefore useless, but still interesting) perspective into other people's heads..

I figured a lot of people would say no.. I'm actually more curious as to the mindsets of those who would say yes..

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
What you are suggesting is that it might be necessary to give up your self-respect to be successful.  You have framed this question as an either/or.  Where is it written that you will succeed simply by doing something you will later regret?

Exactly...

ravens laughter wrote:
I am not sure why you suppose that the loss of dignity is something from which you can never recover. I have lost my dignity and self respect several times in my life, but I have recovered all the better for it. Just because a person does something outside of being true to themselves does not mean they need to be a self loathing thing all their lives. I don't know how much self respect the gentleman gains from dancing around in a big purple dinosaur suit singing out of tune... But perhaps his self respect comes from a place where he knows how many lives he has touched... Perhaps in trading in one thing to feel humiliated about, we can find something of worth in what we have become to satisfy that need to be something important.

By the way some people enjoy being shit on if it makes them grow... Consider it fertilizer.

Uh oh...I better warn James Graham and Marcus Ranum that they've got some competition for the #1&2 spots on my list of photographers I most want to marry :-P