ImagesRetouched wrote:
From what I know, Canadian copyright IS quite different than the US (it's not as clear-cut "Who takes the picture owns the copyright"). Since the photographer and model are Canadian and the photo was taken in Canada, Canadian copyright would apply.


Sorry I don't have specifics. Hopefully someone else can chime in with a more in-depth explanation of the Canadian copyright laws.

no its basically the same, with a model release it depends whats in the release of course, as was stated the photographer owns copyright but the model did not want some of the retouches posted and was not contacted aout it prior to the contest... which out of courtesy means we should not use that image. i can definetely understand why... as there were some AMAZING retouches, and some terrible ones...

Robert Beynard wrote:
So basically, the model who came in first looking to be credited got upset that a few noted her flaws and wants it locked now?

Yeah I really don't find it fair but whatever.

KillerShotz Photography wrote:

Yeah I really don't find it fair but whatever.

Pretty much i feel people who talked about her flaws should be brigged. I also believe MM should make people stick to their written contracts and not have image removed from portfolios. Permission was given, in writing, that is a contract IMO

People should search for her past posts in other threads to get a feel for this member if they haven't run into her before.

Star the retoucher wrote:
Pretty much i feel people who talked about her flaws should be brigged. I also believe MM should make people stick to their written contracts and not have image removed from portfolios. Permission was given, in writing, that is a contract IMO

People should search for her past posts in other threads to get a feel for this member if they haven't run into her before.

This is not looking to good on the model  for future work with other photographers. Because she can just easily go and say I don't want  any untouched work of mines out there etc. etc. If the photographer was aware that she didn't want her unretouched photo floating around I doubt that he would have given permission  for the contest. She was fine  with the contest at first and just wanted credit and then all of the sudden wanted everyone to remove her photo from their portfolios. I do not know who she is or know about her past posts but this sure ain't looking to good for her as a model.

I only need permission from the copyright holder to retouch a photo. So unless the copyright holder himselfs contacts me and says that he wants it removed I wouldn't remove it.

I don't mean so sound like a bitch  but alot of people worked hard on the work for someone to just come in and say I don't want you to show my image in your port because I don't like how I look when the owner of the image already gave permission.

Star the retoucher wrote:

People should search for her past posts in other threads to get a feel for this member if they haven't run into her before.

How is that relavent?  I mean if she is mean or nice should matter in this somehow?

Robert Beynard wrote:

How is that relavent?  I mean if she is mean or nice should matter in this somehow?

It has nothing with mean or nice, that would be a personal statement about the model which I am not making I am saying, instead, if people want to have a feeling of this model in the context of how she thinks they should look up other threads with her involved.

Katherynne Russell wrote:
What about giving credit to the beautiful and talented model who had (a little) influence on the final image?

she did want credit at first. i guess after seeing some hideous retouched photos of her, she got scared. haha. though she shouldn't change her mind but i understand. she does have high-end look so i can see why it's tough for some retouchers to let go of the image. hopefully another photographer steps up and offers photo of high-end model...

better written contract next time.

toan thai photography wrote:

she did want credit at first. i guess after seeing some hideous retouched photos of her, she got scared. haha. though she shouldn't change her mind but i understand. she does have high-end look so i can see why it's tough for some retouchers to let go of the image. hopefully another photographer steps up and offers photo of high-end model...

better written contract next time.

I don't know what a high end model is but I made another contest PT.2 with a beauty image. My image is problably alittle harder to retouch due to having tull on the photo etc. but we'll see how they do.

Star the retoucher wrote:
I am a retoucher and photographer full time for a living. I don't do anything else; so this is where i get to be a hardass.

At the time i did my retouch the photographer had given permission, and he is the only one who can give permission. Right now i need a good beauty retouch in my portfolio and I did spend an hour and half doing the retouch right.

If the model can show she has the right to ask the image to be removed then i will take it down.

HOWEVER if she doesn't have the right, even if the photographer has changed his mind, i would have to charge to take the photo down (my hourly rate). I was given permission, as was everyone else in this thread, to use it in my portfolio by the OP and by proxy the photographer.

That is a contract. Efforts to change the contract aren't really my problem. So, again, if copyright law in the country you are in supports your rights I will take it down. Otherwise i will save my screenshot of the rules and use that to prove my permission to use the image in my portfolio.

I would not have entered the contest otherwise, and i think there are many others here who wouldn't have entered it either.

+1

Star the retoucher wrote:
I am a retoucher and photographer full time for a living. I don't do anything else; so this is where i get to be a hardass.

At the time i did my retouch the photographer had given permission, and he is the only one who can give permission. Right now i need a good beauty retouch in my portfolio and I did spend an hour and half doing the retouch right.

If the model can show she has the right to ask the image to be removed then i will take it down.

HOWEVER if she doesn't have the right, even if the photographer has changed his mind, i would have to charge to take the photo down (my hourly rate). I was given permission, as was everyone else in this thread, to use it in my portfolio by the OP and by proxy the photographer.

That is a contract. Efforts to change the contract aren't really my problem. So, again, if copyright law in the country you are in supports your rights I will take it down. Otherwise i will save my screenshot of the rules and use that to prove my permission to use the image in my portfolio.

I would not have entered the contest otherwise, and i think there are many others here who wouldn't have entered it either.

I also spent several hours working on this image for the contest, so I feel you.

Glamour  Retouch wrote:

I also spent several hours working on this image for the contest, so I feel you.

Same, and in those hours I could have been doing paid work..

Katherynne Russell wrote:
I am regretting asking for "credit" to begin with, obviously I should have CAMed it in the first place, but I was trying to be a good sport. That was obviously a mistake on my part.

People make mistakes.
I asked people to remove it; if they choose not to, all the power to them. Some people did a brilliant job. Some not so much.
I am seriously done stressing about all of this.

Star wrote:
Should MM shut the thread down, even if the model wasn't contacted, if the photographer can prove he has the right to do this?

I have no problem with that thread being closed and locked. I had a bad feeling about the contest from early on. OP of the contest thread was not the image copyright owner, the contest rules were not clear, there were edits/changes to them along the way, there were several followup posts that were confusing and conflicting, people were not following the rules as they were posted, and the OP pretty much didn't moderate the thread and contest. You guys can make insinuations about the model all you want, or argue about copyright and implied contracts. As I see it, responsibility for this confusion/controversy lies with the OP of the contest. I also spent 1.5 hours retouching the image, but I'm going to write it off and move on.

Jhaesayte wrote:
Sure, legally, there was nothing wrong with the thread, but morally, it was another issue.

Morally this is how the model actually looks. There was nothing in the raw image that was created to place her in a bad light. She has wrinkles around the eyes, they exist. The lighting was not creating more wrinkles, it actually was making them less apparent. This is not a critique of the image or the model, it is simply a statement of fact. The before image is how the model looks.

Morally, I have more problems with her wanting the before image hidden then with the simple contest she was shown in.

Star wrote:

Morally this is how the model actually looks. There was nothing in the raw image that was created to place her in a bad light. She has wrinkles around the eyes, they exist. The lighting was not creating more wrinkles, it actually was making them less apparent. This is not a critique of the image or the model, it is simply a statement of fact. The before image is how the model looks.

Morally I have more problems with her wanting that hidden then with the simple contest she was shown in.

I agree.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
This has to be a joke. Model decides usage over an image. What next models dictating to clients.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
This has to be a joke. Model decides usage over an image. What next models dictating to clients.

LOL!

Star wrote:
Morally this is how the model actually looks. There was nothing in the raw image that was created to place her in a bad light. She has wrinkles around the eyes, they exist. The lighting was not creating more wrinkles, it actually was making them less apparent. This is not a critique of the image or the model, it is simply a statement of fact. The before image is how the model looks.

Morally I have more problems with her wanting that hidden then with the simple contest she was shown in.

I do not think the before was what places her in a bad light, rather some of the bad retouches do, and she can't say only those which are decent can stay or be used in an open contest, its all or none.

At least that was a rationale offered by Stephen to me when I asked him a hypothetical based on this scenario.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
I'd like to know who the mod was that locked that forum and an explanation.

If you read the edited OP, the contest was changed and, IMO, essentially canceled... but people were still submitting entries. Makes sense to lock what was a dead and confusing thread.

Skydancer wrote:

If you read the edited OP, the contest was changed again, and IMO was essentially canceled... but people were still submitting entries. Makes sense to lock what was a dead and confusing thread.

Should'nt it have been stoped on the op's request and not the models.

There is also some clause in copyright that an image or whatever maybe used for educational or demonstration purposes as there is no intent of theft or financial gain.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
Should'nt it have been stoped on the op's request and not the models.

There is also some clause in copyright that an image or whatever maybe used for educational or demonstration purposes as there is no intent of theft or financial gain.

I don't know who, or how many people, CAM'd or asked for the thread to be locked. But as I wrote earlier, I have no problem with it being locked because the thread, and the conditions, were a confusing mess. It was not clear at first whether or not people could use the image in their ports, then it was said they could, then it was said they couldn't. IMO, the confusion and responsibility lies with how the OP's contest/thread was written and moderated (not with the image copyright owner or the model), and the fact that on several occasions the conditions and rules were changed, restated, re-clarified... or ??? 

And, um, sorry but I don't think that thread was not going down the path of being for educational or demonstration purposes... it was a "retouch this image" contest that got off track.

Edit: And BTW, I don't mean to impune or criticize the OP of that contest, who seems like a perfectly decent person. I just think the whole thing got confusing and out of control.

I'm off for the weekend. Toodles.

Skydancer wrote:

I don't know who, or how many people, CAM'd or asked for the thread to be locked. But as I wrote earlier, I have no problem with it being locked because the thread, and the conditions, were a confusing mess. It was not clear at first whether or not people could use the image in their ports, then it was said they could, then it was said they couldn't. IMO, the confusion and responsibility lies with how the OP's contest/thread was written and moderated (not with the image copyright owner or the model), and the fact that on several occasions the conditions and rules were changed, restated, re-clarified... or ??? 

And, um, sorry but I don't think that thread was not going down the path of being for educational or demonstration purposes... it was a "retouch this image" contest that got off track.

Edit: And BTW, I don't mean to impune or criticize the OP of that contest, who seems like a perfectly decent person. I just think the whole thing got confusing and out of control.

I'm off for the weekend. Toodles.

I agree, it all went a little bit crazy at the end I think. Trying to keep on top of everything was a bit difficult. I don't like changing rules myself, but the situation sorta called for it. Also, I am the kind of person who will take into consideration good suggestions from participants in contests, since this was more of a fun thing and not an official site thing. I expected the first post, even the second one, to be finessed as we went along, through trial and error.

A little inconvenient, yes, but did this more to keep the majority of people happy. People started freaking about not being able to keep the image in their ports, so I asked the photographer about it and once he gave permission, I changed it in the rules to let everyone know that it was ok, for those people who had shown concern. I don't find that too confusing.

As far as voting, a lot of people suggested two winners, with the photog's choice choosing the first place winner. I thought, Sure! Nice idea! So I put that in as well as an addition. Again, not that confusing.

Sure, the thread went to crap at the end, but it opened up the doors for people in this forum to start off a fun thing, which I think is GOOD.