NewBoldPhoto wrote:

Tony,
I see your point and, I agree... however the difference between a doctor, police officer, a teacher and a internet photographer should be obvious.

I guess it's not obvious. Please explain. How many of these "Professionals" have been caught recently breaking the law?

Barron C wrote:
WHEN YOU GO TO THE DENTIST AFTER 18 YEARS OF AGE DO YOU BRING AN ESCORT, WHEN THE CABLE MAN COMES TO YOUR HOME DO YOU HAVE AN ESCORT THERE WATCHING HIM. I HAVE BEEN TAKING PHOTOS FOR QUITE A WHILE AND I CAN'T REMEMBER ONE MODEL BEING KILLED OR MAIMED BY A PHOTOGRAPHER, IF YOU ARE NOT A MINOR IT IS COMPLETELY UNPROFESSIONAL TO BRING AN ESCORT TO YOUR JOB, IT SAYS MORE ABOUT THE PARANOIA OF THE MODEL THAN THE BEHAVIOR OF PHOTOGRAPHERS REAL PHOTOGRAPHERS. IF YOU THINK SOMEONE IS POSING AS A PHOTOGRAPHER TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF WOMEN DON'T SHOOT WITH THEM. I FIND IT ANNOYING THAT PEOPLE ASSUME THAT PHOTOGRAPHERS ARE A SPECIAL BRAND OF FREAK.

The dentist has a profession, 8 plus years of schooling, accredidation and a six figure plus income to lose at even the mere mention of inappropriate behavior.

The Cable guy has his job (more than likely his only means of support for him and his family if he has one) to lose at even the mere mention of inappropriate behavior at a clients house.

Joe photographer that is more than likely a hobbyist has very little to lose and very little to answer for by feeling up, touching or assaulting  Jane model.  It would be handled  like any other assault case (if it was even reported as 3 out of 4 are not) and the burden of proof would be on the model and not the photographer.  He would more than likely not have much collatteral damage to his life, it could easily be masked to his employer, and there won't be any associations taking away accredidations or licenses due to what will most likely be written off as a "misunderstanding" when it all comes down to it.


I'm not saying that photographers are a "special type of freak" but the situations aren't the same with other professions.  And to make the correlation is laughable.   

The risk is higher that something bad could happen at a shoot and the perp could GET AWAY WITH IT, then any of these other situations that you all are talking about.

Be realistic.

Ransom J wrote:

The dentist has a profession, 8 plus years of schooling, accredidation and a six figure plus income to lose at even the mere mention of inappropriate behavior.

The Cable guy has his job (more than likely his only means of support for him and his family if he has one) to lose at even the mere mention of inappropriate behavior at a clients house.

Joe photographer that is more than likely a hobbyist has very little to lose and very little to answer for by feeling up, touching or assaulting  Jane model.  It would be handled  like any other assault case (if it was even reported as 3 out of 4 are not) and the burden of proof would be on the model and not the photographer.  He would more than likely not have much collatteral damage to his life, it could easily be masked to his employer, and there won't be any associations taking away accredidations or licenses due to what will most likely be written off as a "misunderstanding" when it all comes down to it.


I'm not saying that photographers are a "special type of freak" but the situations aren't the same with other professions.  And to make the correlation is laughable.   

The risk is higher that something bad could happen at a shoot and the perp could GET AWAY WITH IT, then any of these other situations that you all are talking about.

Be realistic.

Ransom J wrote:

The dentist has a profession, 8 plus years of schooling, accredidation and a six figure plus income to lose at even the mere mention of inappropriate behavior.

The Cable guy has his job (more than likely his only means of support for him and his family if he has one) to lose at even the mere mention of inappropriate behavior at a clients house.

Joe photographer that is more than likely a hobbyist has very little to lose and very little to answer for by feeling up, touching or assaulting  Jane model.  It would be handled  like any other assault case (if it was even reported as 3 out of 4 are not) and the burden of proof would be on the model and not the photographer.  He would more than likely not have much collatteral damage to his life, it could easily be masked to his employer, and there won't be any associations taking away accredidations or licenses due to what will most likely be written off as a "misunderstanding" when it all comes down to it.


I'm not saying that photographers are a "special type of freak" but the situations aren't the same with other professions.  And to make the correlation is laughable.   

The risk is higher that something bad could happen at a shoot and the perp could GET AWAY WITH IT, then any of these other situations that you all are talking about.

Be realistic.

Okay, Mr. Law and Order cut that 'perp' stuff out.  This isn't cops.  Its photographers shooting models and yes there have and will be problems.
Just like in anything with people.  Things happen but these threads are getting silly.  There was even a photographer on another thread like this one who
suggested models learn Kung-Fu or carry weapons to shoots to protect themselves
against horny photographers.  If its coming to that then we all need to stop
shooting.  I haven't read in any F.B.I or crime break down about the mass attacks
of models we read about on this site.  It seems every other model is being grouped,
stalked, peeked at or having nasty things said to her.  If I were a model reading
some of these awfull threads about sex offenders and all the various scams I
would stop modeling.  Look I know there are some bad people around.  Again
thats in every field but lets not be so eager to paint almost every photographer
with the same brush.

benson wrote:
I am just curious here........Do you suppose that these models bring an escort to their "day job"?

I am all about safety.....Bring your escort....sit chat get comfy.....but when it is time to shoot or discuss business he/she/they may feel free to wait outside or head to the cafe a blcok up the street........Modelling is a JOB!

Oh and to qualify I don't really shoot nudes....I shoot fashion for my own label......

Well put! 

And what about photographer safety? Let's say the model or her boyfriend/escort "loses it"! They have a witness; you don't!  Hmmm... maybe I should bring an escort for my safety as well. Let's just bring in the armed guards!

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Okay, Mr. Law and Order cut that 'perp' stuff out.  This isn't cops.  Its photographers shooting models and yes there have and will be problems.
Just like in anything with people.  Things happen but these threads are getting silly.  There was even a photographer on another thread like this one who
suggested models learn Kung-Fu or carry weapons to shoots to protect themselves
against horny photographers.  If its coming to that then we all need to stop
shooting.  I haven't read in any F.B.I or crime break down about the mass attacks
of models we read about on this site.  It seems every other model is being grouped,
stalked, peeked at or having nasty things said to her.  If I were a model reading
some of these awfull threads about sex offenders and all the various scams I
would stop modeling.  Look I know there are some bad people around.  Again
thats in every field but lets not be so eager to paint almost every photographer
with the same brush.

Mr. Law and Order?  Was that supposed to be a dig?

It's funny to me how ya'll scream this "don't paint photographers with a broad brush" bullshit when nobody ever said EVERY photographer was a rape waiting to happen.  Yet in the same breath you all can paint EVERY  model with an escort as undesirable to work with and as some "bad experience" waiting to happen on your part.  Seems like you're the one with the "happy little trees" over there and not me.  We are talking about those photographers that DO have something under handed in mind.  They exist.  Enough so that a model SHOULD be concerned with her safety.  Why lull them into a false sense of security?  This isn't photographers union 101, it's an internet modeling site that probably consist of 70 percent hobbyists and weekend models.  So all your "she can't do this at an agency shoot" and "this isn't professional" really doesn't apply, because these aren't professional situations.  Why get so worked up every time a thread about escorts is made?  What's the big problem?  Seems that YOU are painting ALL models and ALL escorts with a broad brush by assuming they are ALL trouble.  I've never had ONE problem with an escort.  NOT ONCE.  But i control my environtment and ensure that all bullshit is laid to rest before it can start.  Escorts don't scare me, they don't intimidate me and they don't stop me from working with a model.  If they do to you then in MY OPINION you might need to lighten up on that BROAD BRUSH you swing around so freely and think about what  REALLY is the problem.

Ransom J wrote:
But i control my environtment and ensure that all bullshit is laid to rest before it can start.  Escorts don't scare me, they don't intimidate me and they don't stop me from working with a model.  If they do to you then in MY OPINION you might need to lighten up on that BROAD BRUSH you swing around so freely and think about what  REALLY is the problem.

do you care to elaborate what the problem might be?

benson wrote:
I am just curious here........Do you suppose that these models bring an escort to their "day job"?

I am all about safety.....Bring your escort....sit chat get comfy.....but when it is time to shoot or discuss business he/she/they may feel free to wait outside or head to the cafe a blcok up the street........Modelling is a JOB!

Oh and to qualify I don't really shoot nudes....I shoot fashion for my own label......

You aren't alone in a room with one other person asking you to take of your clothes at a DAY JOB...lol maybe a night job..but with a day job..there usual is security somewhere not to mention the amount of people that are around already! And no, that doesn't mean nothing can go wrong..but it is the same sense of security that an escort would provide at a shoot.. Now, with shoots where there will be stylists,wardrobe,hair,etc.. I see no reason for an escort. . but most models can't afford that and the short ones like me don't get it free! so the shoots are just you and the photog alone in a studio..unless its you and two photogs alone in a studio..wooohooo!  I see no problem with escorts in these types of situations and IF an escort just happened to be completely distracting..how hard is it to tell them to wait outside/go somewhere else until it was over? ...EXACTLY..

Tiara LeAnne wrote:

You aren't alone in a room with one other person asking you to take of your clothes at a DAY JOB...lol maybe a night job..but with a day job..there usual is security somewhere not to mention the amount of people that are around already! And no, that doesn't mean nothing can go wrong..but it is the same sense of security that an escort would provide at a shoot.. Now, with shoots where there will be stylists,wardrobe,hair,etc.. I see no reason for an escort. . but most models can't afford that and the short ones like me don't get it free! so the shoots are just you and the photog alone in a studio..unless its you and two photogs alone in a studio..wooohooo!  I see no problem with escorts in these types of situations and IF an escort just happened to be completely distracting..how hard is it to tell them to wait outside/go somewhere else until it was over? ...EXACTLY..

Most photographers are cool with escorts.  I don't care who a model brings.
I have more of a problem with what I call the model butt kissers who loudly
proclaim how escorts are always needed or that models should carry weapons
to every shoot or learn Kung - Fu.  These people are always giving models these
wonderfull safety tips and also scaring the crap out of you.  There just isn't this
mass group of photographers waiting to harm models.  Yes there are a few bad
apples but most are just regular guys trying to get some good photos.  Take
a escort but don't start by being afraid.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Most photographers are cool with escorts.  I don't care who a model brings.
I have more of a problem with what I call the model butt kissers who loudly
proclaim how escorts are always needed or that models should carry weapons
to every shoot or learn Kung - Fu.  These people are always giving models these
wonderfull safety tips and also scaring the crap out of you.  There just isn't this
mass group of photographers waiting to harm models.  Yes there are a few bad
apples but most are just regular guys trying to get some good photos.  Take
a escort but don't start by being afraid.

I agree.. but as I know from experience..escorts are sometimes needed but its the model's job NOT to bring an escort who will be disrespectful and distracting! I bring escorts who know that they should be there to make sure nothing happens and assist the photographer if needed (and every photog so far has loved the extra help and asked for it the next time!) And we all know that the world is a dangerous place and we are more likely to get into a car accident than have a horrible photog experience but that was before we became models ; )  In any situation..shoot gone wrong...rape..unplanned pregnancy.. its the people who think it can't or won't happen to them that get the rude awakening.. better safe than sorry I always say.

Tiara LeAnne wrote:

You aren't alone in a room with one other person asking you to take of your clothes at a DAY JOB...lol maybe a night job..but with a day job..there usual is security somewhere not to mention the amount of people that are around already! And no, that doesn't mean nothing can go wrong..but it is the same sense of security that an escort would provide at a shoot.. Now, with shoots where there will be stylists,wardrobe,hair,etc.. I see no reason for an escort. . but most models can't afford that and the short ones like me don't get it free! so the shoots are just you and the photog alone in a studio..unless its you and two photogs alone in a studio..wooohooo!  I see no problem with escorts in these types of situations and IF an escort just happened to be completely distracting..how hard is it to tell them to wait outside/go somewhere else until it was over? ...EXACTLY..

You know, this sounds logical except when you begin to deconstruct it.  For instance...assumption is that photographers are always male.  The reality, is they are not.  Do models feel the need for protection from a female?   I 'm asking is the fear one based on Female vs male, or is it the aspect of "photographer" that strikes fear?

Secondly, what good is an escort, to protect from harm, if they are outside of where the photgrapher and model are working.

BCI Photo wrote:
But if you notice, it's mostly guys who don't deliver the pics that get accused of bad stuff out of spite.

Usually that's because they try something "bad" ..get a bad reaction from the model.. and  then don't want to go through with their end of the deal because they feel that the model didn't... yes I have had this happen before..

But if you notice, it's mostly new/ aspiring models that are accused of being unprofessional because they want an escort when really they are just trying to protect themselves..( aspiring models/non-agency are targeted by criminals because they're new & are usually managing all the work themselves) and also accused of complaining out of spite for petty things because its easier for some to believe THAT than to believe that a photog who "has a name" and does good work could possibly set up a shoot ...that is suppose to be edgy & set in a hotel room..and directly imply that the model wants HIM and that more will happen in that room than a shoot! how can it be so hard for some of you to except that this DOES happen? 
..because it hasn't happened to you?

Especially with it being so easy for someone to pretend that they are someone else...someone who HAS references.. someone with great work.. and then turn out to be a perv with a cam! do you know how many sex offender live around you? ..lol
go to Americas most wanted.com and type in you address/zip code..see for yourself how many live by your child's school and right down the street.. and tell yourself you're luck nothing has happened yet..  see how it feels to actually know..and feel dumb that you figured everyone around you was decent & "it couldn't happen to you"

Just so we're clear...I am NOT attacking anyone here.. I just don't agree with the idea of ridiculing a model (I have seen this done here MANY times when a model writes a forum about an unacceptable "shoot") like she/ he asked for it.. If your child/sister/mother /brother/wife.. came home from a "shoot" like this and told you what happened ..would you treat her like its her own fault?

Ransom J wrote:
The dentist has a profession, 8 plus years of schooling, accredidation and a six figure plus income to lose at even the mere mention of inappropriate behavior.

The Cable guy has his job (more than likely his only means of support for him and his family if he has one) to lose at even the mere mention of inappropriate behavior at a clients house.

Joe photographer that is more than likely a hobbyist has very little to lose and very little to answer for by feeling up, touching or assaulting  Jane model.  It would be handled  like any other assault case (if it was even reported as 3 out of 4 are not) and the burden of proof would be on the model and not the photographer.  He would more than likely not have much collatteral damage to his life, it could easily be masked to his employer, and there won't be any associations taking away accredidations or licenses due to what will most likely be written off as a "misunderstanding" when it all comes down to it.


I'm not saying that photographers are a "special type of freak" but the situations aren't the same with other professions.  And to make the correlation is laughable.   

The risk is higher that something bad could happen at a shoot and the perp could GET AWAY WITH IT, then any of these other situations that you all are talking about.

Be realistic.

Ahhhh hellooooooo....I have my profession, I have schooling, I do not have a six figure income because my tax accountant works very hard to see to it that I make as little as possible.

And I have a lot to lose by the mere hint of impropriety.

Joe the Plumber is much more likely to be able to find similar paying work than I am and is probably less like to be a high news profile.

That it would be handled like any assault case, well that's good isn't it?  I mean no unequal treatment under the law (unless your last name is Kennedy) is the way it's supposed to be.

The burden of proof would be on the model - uhhh yes, it's called innocent until proven guilty, it's part of the foundation of our legal system.  look it up sometime.

3 out of 4 assaults would never be reported - where exactly did this figure come from - same place as 1 out of 3 women will be raped a some point in their lifetime, 9 out of 10 dentists choose Crest - the Institute of Pull it Out of your Ass Statistics?

Please.

Every day you live you take risks, every where you drive you take risks, every person you interact with may be one minute shy of a homicidal rage.

Do you live your life in a tank?  But it's soooooooo dangerous out there in the real live adult world.

Take some responsibility for yourselves.

And yes - I am offended by the pervasive politically correct assumption that just because I am a male I am a barely contained violent sexual beast.

From the women I have observed in my own life(time) I might just as easily say that almost all women are lying, manipulative, cheating, drama addicted, moneygrubbers.  And that while there "may" be a few good ones, I just can't take that risk - so no hiring a woman, no providing any kind of professional services for women, no patronizing any female run establishments.

There, now don't I sound like a kook?

That's what most of these arguments sound like to me.

SKPhoto wrote:

Ahhhh hellooooooo....I have my profession, I have schooling, I do not have a six figure income because my tax accountant works very hard to see to it that I make as little as possible.

And I have a lot to lose by the mere hint of impropriety.

Joe the Plumber is much more likely to be able to find similar paying work than I am and is probably less like to be a high news profile.

That it would be handled like any assault case, well that's good isn't it?  I mean no unequal treatment under the law (unless your last name is Kennedy) is the way it's supposed to be.

The burden of proof would be on the model - uhhh yes, it's called innocent until proven guilty, it's part of the foundation of our legal system.  look it up sometime.

3 out of 4 assaults would never be reported - where exactly did this figure come from - same place as 1 out of 3 women will be raped a some point in their lifetime, 9 out of 10 dentists choose Crest - the Institute of Pull it Out of your Ass Statistics?

Please.

Every day you live you take risks, every where you drive you take risks, every person you interact with may be one minute shy of a homicidal rage.

Do you live your life in a tank?  But it's soooooooo dangerous out there in the real live adult world.

Take some responsibility for yourselves.

And yes - I am offended by the pervasive politically correct assumption that just because I am a male I am a barely contained violent sexual beast.

From the women I have observed in my own life(time) I might just as easily say that almost all women are lying, manipulative, cheating, drama addicted, moneygrubbers.  And that while there "may" be a few good ones, I just can't take that risk - so no hiring a woman, no providing any kind of professional services for women, no patronizing any female run establishments.

There, now don't I sound like a kook?

That's what most of these arguments sound like to me.

This is post of the month!  I often wonder where people get theses stats from if
3 out of 4 assaults isn't reported, how do we know about any kind of number.
Hello, it wasn't reported.  Hey I'm all for models feeling safe and lets be real its
feeling safe because someone who wants to hurt you will.  Remember presidents
have been killed.  Worse then models are these 'concerned' photographers posting those well thought out safety tips about taking a friend and getting refrences.
A model would never think of those things on their own.    This is the quote of the week though  "the Institute of Pull it Out of your Ass Statistics?"  I love it!

Tiara LeAnne wrote:
But if you notice, it's mostly new/ aspiring models that are accused of being unprofessional because they want an escort when really they are just trying to protect themselves

That's what I see as the problem. The escorts I have seen wouldn't be any type of protection. First one I saw was a 70+ grandfather. Second one was a 5'3" mother of the model. What type of protection is that? I don't see that it would be. I don't want to debate the escort issue but why would a model feel safe bring their grandfather that can barely stand on his own?

SKPhoto wrote:

Ahhhh hellooooooo....I have my profession, I have schooling, I do not have a six figure income because my tax accountant works very hard to see to it that I make as little as possible.

And I have a lot to lose by the mere hint of impropriety.

Joe the Plumber is much more likely to be able to find similar paying work than I am and is probably less like to be a high news profile.

That it would be handled like any assault case, well that's good isn't it?  I mean no unequal treatment under the law (unless your last name is Kennedy) is the way it's supposed to be.

The burden of proof would be on the model - uhhh yes, it's called innocent until proven guilty, it's part of the foundation of our legal system.  look it up sometime.

3 out of 4 assaults would never be reported - where exactly did this figure come from - same place as 1 out of 3 women will be raped a some point in their lifetime, 9 out of 10 dentists choose Crest - the Institute of Pull it Out of your Ass Statistics?

Please.

Every day you live you take risks, every where you drive you take risks, every person you interact with may be one minute shy of a homicidal rage.

Do you live your life in a tank?  But it's soooooooo dangerous out there in the real live adult world.

Take some responsibility for yourselves.

And yes - I am offended by the pervasive politically correct assumption that just because I am a male I am a barely contained violent sexual beast.

From the women I have observed in my own life(time) I might just as easily say that almost all women are lying, manipulative, cheating, drama addicted, moneygrubbers.  And that while there "may" be a few good ones, I just can't take that risk - so no hiring a woman, no providing any kind of professional services for women, no patronizing any female run establishments.

There, now don't I sound like a kook?

That's what most of these arguments sound like to me.

I'd like to note that you are taking my statements and applying your own personal hurt and offense to it.  if it doesn't apply let it fly.  You sound like a kook because you are taking this personal.  Because you are making hardly analogous comparissons, and because you are turning statements that apply to a minority that people should be aware of and applying them to the majority in a way to try to demonize my point and post.


I've made it clear that this isn't to blanket ALL photographers at least three times, but people like you and Tony would like to look past that and have your period all over my point.

If you would honestly like to beleve the risk factor of something happening with some internet meeting of photographer and model, is less than or equal to that of the frickin' CABLE GUY or DOCTOR then there is no speaking to you.

Look at this bullshit you all are saying.

I said that the risks are real that something COULD happen, therefore bringing an escort  if you aren't comfortable at first  is a good idea as the nature of MOST people with unsavory intent is to go after easy targets and opportunity.  And escort will deter both of those.  But the defenders in the anti escort movement speak about SERIAL KILLERS and AXE MURDERERS.  How extreme can you get?? I'm speaking about comfort level and stopping something from happening, leaving the something as gray as inappropriate comments, to full blown rape, and you all are turning that into every photographer being John Wayne Gacy.

I'm speaking of a MINORITY and you are applying it to the majority.  The fuck??


If you told me that because from the women you have observed in your own life(time) you might just as easily say that almost all women are lying, manipulative, cheating, drama addicted, moneygrubbers.  And that while there "may" be a few good ones, you'd be an asshole.


Now show me where I said that??  Or anything analogous?  Show me where i said that my statements are respresentative of anything MORE than the minority of photographers that give them a bad name.  Show me.  One place.

If you said that because of bad experiences with women being money grubbing and gold digging you weren't comfortable paying for all of the first dates, if you said you'd perfer to go dutch the first two dates, then i'd say you have every right to that and think that due to your experiences if that's what made you comfortable with a woman than that's a smart choice.


Now THAT's closer to what i said.  But you'd like to believe otherwise because every last one of these "escort" threads, turns into a bunch of photographers bitching a moaning "we aren't animals, a meteor might fall out of the sky today and kill you, you don't need an escort to go to your mothers house so you shouldn't need one with me!!  You don't need to do anything to help set your mind at ease if you are uncomfortable cause if you do you aren't a model!!"

You people kill me.

G Katsis Photography wrote:
This is one conversation where the difference between "land-based" and "internet-based becomes incredibly obvious.

Model safety? I always had the odd idea that if there was any whiff of doubt about the professionalism of the photographer the model had no business going to his/her studio to begin with. If there's doubt about your safety and you elect to go there (wherever "there" may be), then you are putting income (or just some pictures) ahead of your safety.

Which kind of makes a joke of "putting safety first".

Since each individual (photographer/model/MUA/stylist) is an independent contractor, they can have whatever policies they wish for their business. If you don't like the policies of a merchant, don't do business with them. It's not as though there was a shortage of potential suppliers on either side of the camera.

I agree.  This isn't something that comes up often if AT ALL with land based business practice.  But this is the internet.  Different breed of model, different breed of photograher.  Different breed of business.

It just trips me out that SOME people expect from an internet model the professionalism and practices of an agency model, yet they aren't contacting them through and agency.


You found her on the net, expect the rules of the net to hold sway.

Dyer McLoughlin Photo wrote:
I read the first page of this forum so not sure if I'm on the same subject still.

I am a 22yr old female photographer. I bring someone with ME for the same reason a 22yr old model does. I just feel more comfortable having someone there.

=====

I can understand your viewpoint here.

As a male photographer I allow and sometimes even encourage a model to bring along a friend.
Some of these 'friends' have been absolutely NO problem; a couple of them have stolen equipment and other things such as music CD's while I have been attending to the shoot.
** no fun there*

Now, my wife would like that I ONLY shoot when she can be around. She does -not- like having things stolen ..... but she -really- wants to be there because of one model who went overboard when I refused to do some poses she wanted.  --- I understand her position. Do you models??

Ransom J wrote:

I agree.  This isn't something that comes up often if AT ALL with land based business practice.  But this is the internet.  Different breed of model, different breed of photograher.  Different breed of business.

It just trips me out that SOME people expect from an internet model the professionalism and practices of an agency model, yet they aren't contacting them through and agency.


You found her on the net, expect the rules of the net to hold sway.

I expect both models and photographers to hold themselves accountable for
their actions.  It doesn't matter where you find them.  Its not like internet models
or photographers are some strange breed of alien.  As several have said if you
have doubts about someone don't work with them.  Recently a model who contacted me about shooting began to quiz me about the equipment I used.  I told
her about my D-70, etc.  I then asked her if I used a Leica would she have known
what that was.  She didn't and by that time I wasn't all that intrested in her anymore.  We should use caution and care but this is going beyond that and its
often well meaning photographers who add to the problem.  If you (as a photographer) are always saying be carefull ,don't give out your phone number take a gun and three escorts whats a model to think? I made a crack about your
use of 'perp' in another post you made.  Not to make fun of you but to bring attention that this isn't Cops the T.V. show but simply a place to network.  If
it continues to be full of drama we all suffer. Yes take a friend thats cool, but
we as photographers don't need to add to all the calls for caution.  These are
mostly photographers as cool and safe as you are.  Please lets not give models
more reasons to fear us.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

I expect both models and photographers to hold themselves accountable for
their actions.  It doesn't matter where you find them.  Its not like internet models
or photographers are some strange breed of alien.  As several have said if you
have doubts about someone don't work with them.  Recently a model who contacted me about shooting began to quiz me about the equipment I used.  I told
her about my D-70, etc.  I then asked her if I used a Leica would she have known
what that was.  She didn't and by that time I wasn't all that intrested in her anymore.  We should use caution and care but this is going beyond that and its
often well meaning photographers who add to the problem.  If you (as a photographer) are always saying be carefull ,don't give out your phone number take a gun and three escorts whats a model to think? I made a crack about your
use of 'perp' in another post you made.  Not to make fun of you but to bring attention that this isn't Cops the T.V. show but simply a place to network.  If
it continues to be full of drama we all suffer. Yes take a friend thats cool, but
we as photographers don't need to add to all the calls for caution.  These are
mostly photographers as cool and safe as you are.  Please lets not give models
more reasons to fear us.

Since nothing you said in your post is ANYTHING I said then this response is irrelevant.

I've gone no further than to say that if you aren't comfortable with a photog AT FIRST  and you want to bring an escort then do it.  No more no less.

YOU added the kung-fu, YOU added the GUN, YOU added the not giving out the phone number and every other overly dramatic theme in this post.  YOU and other photographers in here  took it to THAT level.


If anybody doesn't NEED to be feeding them reasons to fear us it's YOU with taking  simple and reasonable statement of "if you aren't comfortable at first meeting some guy off the internet then bring an escort" and turning it into "bring and escort, learn 12th level Jeet Kun Do and carry an Ithica 37, 12 guage sawed shot gun with a 5 lb slide to every shoot because 90 percent of photographers are Jeff Dahlmer with a Canon".

Ransom J wrote:

Since nothing you said in your post is ANYTHING I said then this response is irrelevant.

I've gone no further than to say that if you aren't comfortable with a photog AT FIRST  and you want to bring an escort then do it.  No more no less.

YOU added the kung-fu, YOU added the GUN, YOU added the not giving out the phone number and every other overly dramatic theme in this post.  YOU and other photographers in here  took it to THAT level.


If anybody doesn't NEED to be feeding them reasons to fear us it's YOU with taking  simple and reasonable statement of "if you aren't comfortable at first meeting some guy off the internet then bring an escort" and turning it into "bring and escort, learn 12th level Jeet Kun Do and carry an Ithica 37, 12 guage sawed shot gun with a 5 lb slide to every shoot because 90 percent of photographers are Jeff Dahlmer with a Canon".

First lets not make this personal.  You claimed I had a problem with models taking escorts.  That was untrue.  Second, you've made somewhat negative comments
about internet photographers and models. Ummm aren't you here with us on the
internet?   You mentioned Joe the average hobbist who might feel he has nothing to lose by feeling up models.  You gave a stat about 3 out of 4 women doesn't report assaults.  Where did you come with that?  You said that other proffesions
based on the amount of education, etc someone has are less likely to have creeps in them.  Well tell that to the Catholic Church,  tell that to one of the directors
of Homeland Security. You as a photographer simply don't need to add to all
the bull.  Things happen in every walk of life in fact the F.B.I. tells us that women
are most likely to be murdered by someone they are in a relationship with. 
Same for certain types of assaults.  There simply isn't this mass group of photographers waiting to rape models.  I agree that models have to be carefull,
okay we all get that.  I agree there are some bad apples out there, we get that.
However when someone says that about 70 percent of the photographers here
are hobbists and its usually a hobbists thats most likely the person who might
harm a model then by default you've insulted most of the photographers here.
Maybe you didn't mean to.  I for one will be one of the people here willing to stand
up for my fellow photographers I just wish you had more respect for those who
are out there shooting images just like you.

jimblast wrote:
Bottom line:

If you had a daughter age range 18-24, would you want her to shoot with a photographer she'd never worked with in a secluded location? 

No.  Absolutely not.  It makes no sense and is inviting disaster.

She needs an escort, not pepper spray or a weapon.  Let the escort carry the weapon (even though the weapons aren't necessary, the escort is).  The vast majority of models I've worked with have told me horror stories and have had some very close calls.  Almost EVERY SINGLE time it turns out they were unescorted.  Think about that.  It makes you wonder about those who haven't come forward whom something bad has happened when participating a shoot unescorted.

Stick to the subject at hand.  We're not trying to reinvent Homeland Security, just debate safe practices.  Whether its an internet photographer or an alien photographer, bring the friggin' escort.  Be safe.  Be smart.  'Preventative safety measures'.  Think.

Jim there are several issues here.  First most of us agree that escorts are okay.
My problem isn't the escort or models its photographers who talk about
the attacks on models are usually by hobbists and thats whats mostly here.
By default this is an insult against almost every non pro on this site add to
that negative comments about internet photographers and models.  Recently
a model came on this site and spoke about a offer she had to do a film might
be a scam.  Several people responded that she might be right and as usual
before they knew the facts they went on the attack.  The person mentioned
came on and explained what happened and I offered my view on why all these
attacks on photographer need to stop.  I have somewhat hijacked this thread
so its not really a battle over escorts but one of the respect that photographers
need to give each other.  As another photographer mentioned most of the
photographers here are hobbists and some are up to no good.  However most
are cool people trying to shoot and produce their art.  Lets not spit in each
others faces.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

First lets not make this personal.  You claimed I had a problem with models taking escorts.  That was untrue.  Second, you've made somewhat negative comments
about internet photographers and models. Ummm aren't you here with us on the
internet?   You mentioned Joe the average hobbist who might feel he has nothing to lose by feeling up models.  You gave a stat about 3 out of 4 women doesn't report assaults.  Where did you come with that?  You said that other proffesions
based on the amount of education, etc someone has are less likely to have creeps in them.  Well tell that to the Catholic Church,  tell that to one of the directors
of Homeland Security. You as a photographer simply don't need to add to all
the bull.  Things happen in every walk of life in fact the F.B.I. tells us that women
are most likely to be murdered by someone they are in a relationship with. 
Same for certain types of assaults.  There simply isn't this mass group of photographers waiting to rape models.  I agree that models have to be carefull,
okay we all get that.  I agree there are some bad apples out there, we get that.
However when someone says that about 70 percent of the photographers here
are hobbists and its usually a hobbists thats most likely the person who might
harm a model then by default you've insulted most of the photographers here.
Maybe you didn't mean to.  I for one will be one of the people here willing to stand
up for my fellow photographers I just wish you had more respect for those who
are out there shooting images just like you.

What did I say negative about internet photographers?  I said the internet and land based business is different.  I said that hobbyist photographers aren't putting their "business on the line", I didn't say that he hadnothign to lose, he has LESS to lose then the pro photog that can have his means of support stripped from him by a bad misunderstanding or bad decision on his part.  these are facts.  True if you want to admit it or not.  You are INFERRING everything else.  You infer that i have a negative view of internet photogs and models.  Not true.  I just recognize a difference in how business operates on both.  You REALLY seem to be taking this more personal then you should be.

My stat about rape comes from a research paper I did on sexual assault while in college.  If you REALLY need the name and publisher and pg numbers then I'll search through my archives and find the bibliography JUST FOR YOU. 


All your stats about "she's more likely to get murdered in a relationship, the catholic church rapes little boys, etc. etc. etc." are pointless.  It's like those Bush ass kissers that start spewing shit about Clinton when someone talks about how bad a job Bush is doing.  As if Clinton has anything to do with it.  No matter how many ways she can get killed, maimed, murdered, or beat up outside of modeling, there is SOME risk of it happening THIS way and that's what we are disucssing.  What part about that is hard?  I'll say it again, if a model is uncomfortable her first time meeting a photographer, then bring an if that's what would make you more comfortable.  There is nothign wrong with it, and anybody that tells you different is an insensitive prick in my opinion (this is in relation to the net-based world).

My statement that you "had a problem" with escorts comes down to this.  Allt he pomp and circumstance.  All the "things happen in every walk of life"  the "what about the FBI saying she's more likely to get killed by someone she's in a relationship with?'  The hell?? What does THAT have to do with escorts?  Why even make the comparrison?  Why take it to that level??  If a girl wants to bring an escort, let her bring and escort, set your ground rules and control your environment, if you don't want to shoot with someone that has and escort then don't.  But all this bullshit about what's professional and what's not, what could ALSO happen that's "just as dangerous" when people are talking about the comfort of a PERSON  is unecessary.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Jim there are several issues here.  First most of us agree that escorts are okay.
My problem isn't the escort or models its photographers who talk about
the attacks on models are usually by hobbists and thats whats mostly here.
By default this is an insult against almost every non pro on this site add to
that negative comments about internet photographers and models.  Recently
a model came on this site and spoke about a offer she had to do a film might
be a scam.  Several people responded that she might be right and as usual
before they knew the facts they went on the attack.  The person mentioned
came on and explained what happened and I offered my view on why all these
attacks on photographer need to stop.  I have somewhat hijacked this thread
so its not really a battle over escorts but one of the respect that photographers
need to give each other.  As another photographer mentioned most of the
photographers here are hobbists and some are up to no good.  However most
are cool people trying to shoot and produce their art.  Lets not spit in each
others faces.

Hi Tony!

Beautiful work btw!  I'm not intending to offend any photographer or model on here.  Heaven knows I went through negative accusations posted against myself on here recently which (hail to the Mods) they removed the thread. 

My point is safety.  Many incidents or close calls can be avoided by practicing safe measures.  This is not to indict all photographers, rather it is up to the model to err on the side of safety.  The vast majority of photographers I know will allow for an escort especially during an initial shoot with a model.  It just makes sense. 

I hate using analogies because people pick them apart.  However, a young woman should still practice safety even when shopping at a high end secure district like say, Rodeo Drive.  Certainly the vast majority of people there are good people and have no bad intention except to be elitist and rag on the fabric of America, the hard working retail sales person.  However, there's still that small percentage of people there with intent to prey on unsuspecting patrons.  Am I saying the business owners, patrons, and workers on Rodeo Drive are all criminals?  Of course not.  I'm saying safety for the most part is a preventative function.  One should be prepared.  An escort will diminish the chances of danger exponentially.  During a shoot, there's nothing wrong with bringing an escort who is responsible, yet not there to interfere.

I hope this helps.  In no way shape or form am I calling out anyone on here. 

If I had an 18-24 year old daughter and knew of a photographer, no matter how accomplished, I would ask to attend the shoot as her escort.  Is this overkill?  Possibly.  Does it eliminate any danger to her well being?  Pretty much.  I'm not dissing the photographer, I'm just there for my daughter.  I don't have any children, but I try to put myself in the parents' or models' shoes in these cases.

It's about safe practices.  I don't see what the argument is here.  In fact, I'm shocked that some would disagree with erring on the side of safety....in ANY situation.

Ransom J wrote:

What did I say negative about internet photographers?  I said the internet and land based business is different.  I said that hobbyist photographers aren't putting their "business on the line", I didn't say that he hadnothign to lose, he has LESS to lose then the pro photog that can have his means of support stripped from him by a bad misunderstanding or bad decision on his part.  these are facts.  True if you want to admit it or not.  You are INFERRING everything else.  You infer that i have a negative view of internet photogs and models.  Not true.  I just recognize a difference in how business operates on both.  You REALLY seem to be taking this more personal then you should be.

My stat about rape comes from a research paper I did on sexual assault while in college.  If you REALLY need the name and publisher and pg numbers then I'll search through my archives and find the bibliography JUST FOR YOU. 


All your stats about "she's more likely to get murdered in a relationship, the catholic church rapes little boys, etc. etc. etc." are pointless.  It's like those Bush ass kissers that start spewing shit about Clinton when someone talks about how bad a job Bush is doing.  As if Clinton has anything to do with it.  No matter how many ways she can get killed, maimed, murdered, or beat up outside of modeling, there is SOME risk of it happening THIS way and that's what we are disucssing.  What part about that is hard?  I'll say it again, if a model is uncomfortable her first time meeting a photographer, then bring an if that's what would make you more comfortable.  There is nothign wrong with it, and anybody that tells you different is an insensitive prick in my opinion (this is in relation to the net-based world).

My statement that you "had a problem" with escorts comes down to this.  Allt he pomp and circumstance.  All the "things happen in every walk of life"  the "what about the FBI saying she's more likely to get killed by someone she's in a relationship with?'  The hell?? What does THAT have to do with escorts?  Why even make the comparrison?  Why take it to that level??  If a girl wants to bring an escort, let her bring and escort, set your ground rules and control your environment, if you don't want to shoot with someone that has and escort then don't.  But all this bullshit about what's professional and what's not, what could ALSO happen that's "just as dangerous" when people are talking about the comfort of a PERSON  is unecessary.

You really don't get it do you?  I don't give a shit about models bringing escorts.
This is about YOU respecting your fellow photographers.  I'm talking to YOU
not anybody else.  YOU have little to no respect for most of the photographers here.  YOU are by default insulting that 70% of photographers here by your
hobbists comment.  Make no mistake I'm talking to YOU.  This isn't about any
model or escort.  You are spitting in the faces of most of the photographers here.
So that we are clear.  Because you seem not to get it.  So read this real slow...
Models should bring escorts in most cases.  I've never said they shouldn't ,I do
say if you are really afraid for your safety you shouldn't go at all. Again my problem
with all this is YOU.  Because you've shown such contempt for most of your
fellow photographers here on MM.  So we are clear, I support models bringing
escorts I don't support photographers like you, who would urinate on his fellow
photographers.  By the way you have solid work I just wish you respected the
other talented and safe photographers on this site.