Model
Christina Ilise
Posts: 319
Saint Albans, New York, US
Ok so recently there was a thread about charging models a fee to ensure their presence at scheduled shoot since models tend to be flaky. In my experience lots of photogs tend to be flaky about handing over the stinkin' pictures! I'm thinking about what can be done to combat this. It usually goes like this: photog says, "I'll have your retouched photos in a week" then weeks..months go by and nothing. Sometimes I have to track them down, which is not fun. I figure that if I show up on time with a positive attitude and do the work required that the photog should live up to his end of the bargain too. I understand that people get busy and situations arise, but a courtesy call is the least they could do. So I'm thinking that photogs should have a grace period of a few days after the photos are supposed to be delivered, then have to pay late fees for each day that the model does not receive the photos. In any other field of work, not meeting dealines would be unacceptable so I don't see why it should be any different in this industry. What do you think? Is there a better way to ensure getting your photos or cd on in a timely fashion?
Model
Claire Elizabeth
Posts: 1550
Exton, Pennsylvania, US
Stop working with unprofessional people. Also you have to understand how much time goes into editing a cd of pictures. You cannot expect it to be done within 48 hours. Most people require at least 2 weeks. Each photo can take up to 3 hours to edit.
Photographer
Kevin P Back
Posts: 12
Middletown, Ohio, US
I have taken photos of as many as three people at a time, so who gets their CD's first ? You or one of the other 2 people ?
Or perhaps if you want them superquick, the photog can just do as many as you give him time and ditch the rest. We have better things to do than make you wait.
Wardrobe Stylist
stylist man
Posts: 34382
New York, New York, US
Sure put it in the release that the release is not usable if the payment is not delivered and verified.
Release of images for any use dependent on payment of what ever was agreed upon.
Model
NAT
Posts: 312
Huntington, Virginia, US
Claire Elizabeth wrote:
Stop working with unprofessional people. Also you have to understand how much time goes into editing a cd of pictures. You cannot expect it to be done within 48 hours. Most people require at least 2 weeks. Each photo can take up to 3 hours to edit. Agrees
Model
Christina Ilise
Posts: 319
Saint Albans, New York, US
Claire Elizabeth wrote:
Stop working with unprofessional people. Also you have to understand how much time goes into editing a cd of pictures. You cannot expect it to be done within 48 hours. Most people require at least 2 weeks. Each photo can take up to 3 hours to edit. Unfortunately sometimes you don't know how unprofessional people are until you work with them. Yes I understand editing takes a whole lot of time. In that case, you should not say "i'll have the photos in a week." In any case, a photog should at least contact the model if things are not turning out as planned. That's just common courtesy.
Model
NAT
Posts: 312
Huntington, Virginia, US
Christina Ilise wrote:
Unfortunately sometimes you don't know how unprofessional people are until you work with them. Yes I understand editing takes a whole lot of time. In that case, you should not say "i'll have the photos in a week." In any case, a photog should at least contact the model if things are not turning out as planned. That's just common courtesy. click that darlin....your so not alone...your going to be ok..
https://modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=45795
Model
Michelle Aston
Posts: 8
Manhattan, Illinois, US
I have shot with a lot of photographers in the last two years. I have a top notch photographer that takes 6 months to get the pics back. He is top of his field in the music industry and seriously busy. I had another photographer who wasn't as good, take three months. I put a no comment note on his profile and got them in a week plus my fee. I think it is reasonable to expect pics back in a month, especially if they are touched up/enhanced.
Model
Christina Ilise
Posts: 319
Saint Albans, New York, US
Kevin B wrote:
I have taken photos of as many as three people at a time, so who gets their CD's first ? You or one of the other 2 people ?
Or perhaps if you want them superquick, the photog can just do as many as you give him time and ditch the rest. We have better things to do than make you wait. I think you missed the point. My problem is not with whether photos take a week or a month. I do have a problem, however, when a photog promises pics in a week, you don't hear from him, and then you finally get them after a few months. We are all adults, just communicate. Why should someone have to track you down as you pretend to not receive emails and phone calls? People can keep in contact while trying to set up a shoot but are suddenly too busy to respond once the shoot is over? Give me a break.
Photographer
VRG Photography
Posts: 1025
Tallahassee, Florida, US
MHana wrote:
Sure put it in the release that the release is not usable if the payment is not delivered and verified.
Release of images for any use dependent on payment of what ever was agreed upon. Maybe it'll work, maybe not. If the photographer is busy with other projects and hasn't gotten to it yet, then verification and delivery won't mean squat. Chances are, he/she will not have had much time to do pics for themselves, and if it was just one or two, the model most likely has those, as well.
It all depends on who needs what the most.
Photographer
VRG Photography
Posts: 1025
Tallahassee, Florida, US
I know some people may say that it doesn't matter, but paying jobs come first. I can't fund my "TF's" if I am neglecting paid jobs for a freebie. In a sense, they may be equally as important, but add money to the mix, and watch things change.
Model
Brandon Smith
Posts: 1562
San Diego, California, US
It all comes down to good old fashioned common courtesy. In sales you're taught one thing... Underpromise, Overdeliver. If you say a month, then take the month but if you can't have it by then, let the other parties know. I'm certain that if you were to explain the circumstances to parties involved (I apologize but I was offered a chance to shoot XYZ magazine cover so I'm running a bit behind; my day job got a little hectic, etc ) I'd think most people would be nice enough to say "thats cool, thanks for letting me know". In this case, silence is not golden but is instead an irritant.
Photographer
KoolGirlieStuff
Posts: 3560
Gainesville, Florida, US
I think if a model PAYS for work she should get it within 14 days from the shoot, that`s how I do it with my clients work as well
TEST shoots (which are ALSO paid by the model) are under 30 days return
and TFP/TFI is 30 to 90 days or longer........due to the amount of paying work I have, I don`t have the time to do many of these anymore....so pay me or wait, simple
(I might do one or every two months now..)
I shoot in a specialist field (Retro/Fetish) and offer something different for your buck, I feel that these terms are very attractive for the services rendered, though they are NOT for everyone
Poor communication is the GREATEST problem in this field, also people NOT paying attention to written items like contracts and such, after living many many years in Europe I`ve learned to pay more attention to detail about things, but you will still have people who are about as bright as logs not be able to understand any of it
Photographer
latex-fashions
Posts: 276
Tampa, Florida, US
Why do Images need to be photo shopped so much it takes me 5 minutes tops per image. if your a real model and do your makeup properly. And a photographer KNOWS how to photograph a person then whats the big fuss.
I can see resizing them or retouching things up perfect if it's for a Magazine.. but if you need to Pshop to make yourself or the photographer look like a Pro. them perhaps a differant approch should be taken to get better images.
ie MUA or differant photographer.
Photographer
J C ModeFotografie
Posts: 14718
Los Angeles, California, US
Claire Elizabeth wrote:
Stop working with unprofessional people. Also you have to understand how much time goes into editing a cd of pictures. You cannot expect it to be done within 48 hours. Most people require at least 2 weeks. Each photo can take up to 3 hours to edit. For such exceedingly rare insight and understanding alone you are already in my book of "models to hire"!
Warmest Wishes,
JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER
P.S. And you can go "en pointe" too?! I'm in love!!!
Photographer
Incident Image
Posts: 342
Los Angeles, California, US
I assume these were all photographers you PAID? I mean, thats how its generally done... but alas, i BET this was all TFP nonsense, therefore...
...you get what you pay for.
Photographer
KoolGirlieStuff
Posts: 3560
Gainesville, Florida, US
Claire Elizabeth wrote:
Stop working with unprofessional people. Also you have to understand how much time goes into editing a cd of pictures. You cannot expect it to be done within 48 hours. Most people require at least 2 weeks. Each photo can take up to 3 hours to edit. Well made point Elizabeth! (3 hours is alot.....but PS/Retouch might be 15 mins per pic for me now, I take my time and enjoy it)
Photographer
Glamour Boulevard
Posts: 8628
Sacramento, California, US
KoolGirlieStuff wrote:
Well made point Elizabeth! I think MM should post an image of her on the front page and keep it there 24/7 with a sign saying "THIS is how a professional model. Learn from her!"
Photographer
Glamour Boulevard
Posts: 8628
Sacramento, California, US
Claire Elizabeth wrote:
Each photo can take up to 3 hours to edit. As we mutter
"!@#$%^&*() I TOLD her to SHAVE/WAX before the shoot. Now I have two stubble covered legs, 2 stubble covered pits and astubble covered crotch to unstubblify!-enlarge to 400% here-"
Photographer
Marvin Dockery
Posts: 2243
Alcoa, Tennessee, US
Christina Ilise wrote:
Ok so recently there was a thread about charging models a fee to ensure their presence at scheduled shoot since models tend to be flaky. In my experience lots of photogs tend to be flaky about handing over the stinkin' pictures! I'm thinking about what can be done to combat this. It usually goes like this: photog says, "I'll have your retouched photos in a week" then weeks..months go by and nothing. Sometimes I have to track them down, which is not fun. I figure that if I show up on time with a positive attitude and do the work required that the photog should live up to his end of the bargain too. I understand that people get busy and situations arise, but a courtesy call is the least they could do. So I'm thinking that photogs should have a grace period of a few days after the photos are supposed to be delivered, then have to pay late fees for each day that the model does not receive the photos. In any other field of work, not meeting dealines would be unacceptable so I don't see why it should be any different in this industry. What do you think? Is there a better way to ensure getting your photos or cd on in a timely fashion? I understand where you are coming from with this post. Everyone should keep their word.
Doctors are worse than photographers. When was the last time that you went to see your doctor at a certain time, and did not have to wait?
Photographer
udor
Posts: 25255
New York, New York, US
Claire Elizabeth wrote:
Stop working with unprofessional people. Also you have to understand how much time goes into editing a cd of pictures. You cannot expect it to be done within 48 hours. Most people require at least 2 weeks. Each photo can take up to 3 hours to edit. Listen to Claire Elizabeth!
A busy photographer may also have bigger commercial or editorial assignments coming up while he/she is editing your images which automatically require full attention.
It maybe well worth the wait since he/she is obviously in demand!
If you don't like the wait, shoot only with those type of photographers who don't have pride in their work or what part of their work is "out there", meaning those who burn you a CD right after the shoot without editing.
You get watcha pay for...
When we had no digital cameras... do you have an idea how long the models had to wait to see the contact sheets before selecting?
Let me assure you... it wasn't within a week.
Photographer
Ivan Aps
Posts: 4996
Miami, Florida, US
latex-fashions wrote:
Why do Images need to be photo shopped so much it takes me 5 minutes tops per image. if your a real model and do your makeup properly. And a photographer KNOWS how to photograph a person then whats the big fuss.
I can see resizing them or retouching things up perfect if it's for a Magazine.. but if you need to Pshop to make yourself or the photographer look like a Pro. them perhaps a differant approch should be taken to get better images.
ie MUA or differant photographer. Kidding right? Because the original capture is never the final image it can be. Photoshop is the equivalent to a darkroom for traditional film. It would be like saying that every negative should be thrwon in the enlarger, exposed for 10 seconds and presto...perfect image. WRONG.
The printing master Ansel Adams would sometime spend 3 months on a print trying dodging, burning, different papers, different developers, etc to get the image just right. I once took the same negative and used 5 developers, five toners and five papers and created 120 variables of the same image which then gave it dozens of different feels.
Photoshop is the same thing. The file is just th raw data. How incredible that image becomes is up to the photographer in post production. Now, if the details are not there to work with, that is the photogs fault.
Photographer
VRG Photography
Posts: 1025
Tallahassee, Florida, US
UdoR wrote:
Listen to Claire Elizabeth!
A busy photographer may also have bigger commercial or editorial assignments coming up while he/she is editing your images which automatically require full attention.
It maybe well worth the wait since he/she is obviously in demand!
If you don't like the wait, shoot only with those type of photographers who don't have pride in their work or what part of their work is "out there", meaning those who burn you a CD right after the shoot without editing.
You get watcha pay for...
When we had no digital cameras... do you have an idea how long the models had to wait to see the contact sheets before selecting?
Let me assure you... it wasn't within a week. Oh no, it wasn't within a week. Unless you worked IN a lab like my father did, there was a pretty long wait for them, and everyone knew it. They ALSO knew the value of being patient and letting the photographer do his/her work uninterrupted.
Photographer
VRG Photography
Posts: 1025
Tallahassee, Florida, US
latex-fashions wrote:
Why do Images need to be photo shopped so much it takes me 5 minutes tops per image. if your a real model and do your makeup properly. And a photographer KNOWS how to photograph a person then whats the big fuss.
I can see resizing them or retouching things up perfect if it's for a Magazine.. but if you need to Pshop to make yourself or the photographer look like a Pro. them perhaps a differant approch should be taken to get better images.
ie MUA or differant photographer. It all depends on the person doing the work.
Some photographers are VERY meticulous about their work, and some are not. Everyone's different, and generalizing photographers only makes you go crazy.
That's like saying that every model is going to come to a shoot with ALL of their clothes and accessories, and every thing they do is going to be picture perfect. Sometimes it is, sometimes not.
As a photographer, I look at each model individually. Models should do the same, as well. It would make things so much easier.
Photographer
area291
Posts: 2525
Calabasas, California, US
Claire Elizabeth wrote:
Stop working with unprofessional people. Also you have to understand how much time goes into editing a cd of pictures. You cannot expect it to be done within 48 hours. Most people require at least 2 weeks. Each photo can take up to 3 hours to edit. UdoR wrote:
Listen to Claire Elizabeth! Sorry, this is not what I would call a very sensible answer. Anyone that spends that much time editing/re-touching (3 hours per image) failed miserably in the shooting process or has remedial skills in digital darkroom techniques. The lone exception would be creating multi-layed highly artistic pieces involving several components (but that wasn't mentioned as the project).
When the lighting is correct, the exposure is correct and the model is professionally styled with a qualified MUA there is very little that needs to be done after the fact. The unprofessional people mentioned are the ones that need those 3 hours per image...it wasn't professionally approached to start with.
Photographer
VRG Photography
Posts: 1025
Tallahassee, Florida, US
I couldn't see spending 3 hours on ONE image.
Photographer
udor
Posts: 25255
New York, New York, US
area291 wrote:
The unprofessional people mentioned are the ones that need those 3 hours per image...it wasn't professionally approached to start with. VRG Photography wrote:
I couldn't see spending 3 hours on ONE image. I referred to the fact that it takes time to edit images.
I have a 20/17 ratio, which means out of 20 frames I get usually 17 useable, fully distinct shots (different position, look, expression etc.). I shot recently a project for a website with one model and out of 201 frames, I was able to give 174 shots... same ratio.
My corrections are minor and fast (can be up to 15 minutes if the model has severe skin problems) using ACDSee8 but my laptop is also in it's last stages with 178MB available space... LOL... it's an old box and I'll get a new one next week.
Still, the point is, someone who hands out CD's right after a shoot takes in my opinion no pride into their work.
And if you are very busy, (like I am) you can easily get backlogged and it'll take longer than a week, rather two to three weeks.
Unless of course, you are independently wealthy, don't have to work, use photography as your artistic hobby and work only with one model per week... 
Photographer
Chuck Holliday
Posts: 484
New York, New York, US
if youre spending 3 hours on one image, it better be looking like an illustration, lol.
personally, everybody these days are just too refusing to be understanding of the next person. you have photographers who have loads of stuff going on and sometimes its not just an easy "sit down and edit" process if you have other assignments going on. i know for me, i cant always guarentee somebody i'll have it ready within a week because i have a day job, plus i run my own company so i'm generally out and about so things can get hectic, but i think what people dont understand with each other is that they act as if models dont have other photographers they work with and vice versa. they seem to act as if theyre the only person the other person is working with, on both sides, and no communication or understanding always leads to later down the line where they refuse to work with each other because of non-communication.
thats how alot of times people are kinda "uhnnnn" about somebody they used to work with, mainly because of communication problems and a better understanding of things.
Photographer
Ivan Aps
Posts: 4996
Miami, Florida, US
VRG Photography wrote:
I couldn't see spending 3 hours on ONE image. Unless it is what Area 291 was mentioning to. An artistic image or one that is a complex image using various layers...etc. Those can take some time....looks great, then you sit back and see a detail that could be better.
But for straight out studio or location controlled lighting commercial shots....I would hope no more than 30 Minutes... and that with a cell phone ringing non-stop distracting you.
9 times out of 10, if they turn out nice images but it takes them some time to do so, it is because they are very busy and little breathing time. Yes, the model showed up and possed and did their part. However, the paying clients do allow the photog to do TFP so the paying clients can not be ignored. That said, if it is taking longer than a week to atleast show the model the proofs...it is only professional and fair to contact them and let them know why and when they might actually expect to see them.
Photographer
VRG Photography
Posts: 1025
Tallahassee, Florida, US
Apfel Photography wrote:
Unless it is what Area 291 was mentioning to. An artistic image or one that is a complex image using various layers...etc. Those can take some time....looks great, then you sit back and see a detail that could be better.
But for straight out studio or location controlled lighting commercial shots....I would hope no more than 30 Minutes... and that with a cell phone ringing non-stop distracting you.
9 times out of 10, if they turn out nice images but it takes them some time to do so, it is because they are very busy and little breathing time. Yes, the model showed up and possed and did their part. However, the paying clients do allow the photog to do TFP so the paying clients can not be ignored. That said, if it is taking longer than a week to atleast show the model the proofs...it is only professional and fair to contact them and let them know why and when they might actually expect to see them. Oh, I understand you (and UdoR) completely. There are always exceptions. I guess if I were that proficient in Photoshop and wanted to do some different things with it, it might take me that long. I would bet that an image that was edited in 3 hours is one slammin' image, though!
Photographer
area291
Posts: 2525
Calabasas, California, US
UdoR wrote:
I have a 20/17 ratio, which means out of 20 frames I get usually 17 useable, fully distinct shots (different position, look, expression etc.). I shot recently a project for a website with one model and out of 201 frames, I was able to give 174 shots... same ratio. Damn Udo, that rocks! But it goes to the level of those you work with too. I would suspect that for many if they got 5 per 20 they would be happy.
Whenever I hear "I didn't get my CD" it screams hobbyist to me, the aspirant is more concerned with quantity over quality. Why does a model need a CD? Nope, "Models" don't need a CD. Models need two things; strong photography and great prints for their book. Working models are only choosing one or two images per look and they kill the rest...who needs nothing but the very best imaging of the shoot? Models aren't shooting for keepsake value.
It is far better for the photographer to provide a non-public web gallery for choosing one or two images per look for final cropping and processing (the digital equivalent of a contact sheet). This allows the model to view the imaging at will 24/7 from wherever they have web access (home, work, send the link to the agency for review) instead of carting around a CD.
In all honesty, there is nothing that screams hobbyist louder than TFCD. And for those not getting their "CD" it stands to reason...
Photographer
40 Digital Photography
Posts: 1055
Tarpon Springs, Florida, US
Claire Elizabeth wrote:
Stop working with unprofessional people. Also you have to understand how much time goes into editing a cd of pictures. You cannot expect it to be done within 48 hours. Most people require at least 2 weeks. Each photo can take up to 3 hours to edit. 3 hrs to edit one photo ?
If it takes that long, then the photographer
needs to improve his technical skills.
Robert
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 12221
Los Angeles, California, US
area291 wrote:
Whenever I hear "I didn't get my CD" it screams hobbyist to me, the aspirant is more concerned with quantity over quality. Why does a model need a CD? Nope, "Models" don't need a CD. Models need two things; strong photography and great prints for their book. Working models are only choosing one or two images per look and they kill the rest...who needs nothing but the very best imaging of the shoot? Models aren't shooting for keepsake value.
....
In all honesty, there is nothing that screams hobbyist louder than TFCD. And for those not getting their "CD" it stands to reason... You got that right!
...and to add to the obsurd - I recently contacted an MUA on here who claims to be involved in commercial projects and demands all images on a CD from tests. When I sent her a message to clarify, because I thought she couldn't actually be saying what she was saying (if in fact she was actually operating at the level she claims) - I was met with a vicious attack against me.
GOD - models & MUAs that think this way - join the world and work with professionals, or waste your time with image producers who are stupid enough to give you a CD of images that you won't want or like anyway.
Jeeeeez!
John
Photographer
KoolGirlieStuff
Posts: 3560
Gainesville, Florida, US
UdoR wrote:
Listen to Claire Elizabeth!
A busy photographer may also have bigger commercial or editorial assignments coming up while he/she is editing your images which automatically require full attention.
It maybe well worth the wait since he/she is obviously in demand!
If you don't like the wait, shoot only with those type of photographers who don't have pride in their work or what part of their work is "out there", meaning those who burn you a CD right after the shoot without editing.
You get watcha pay for...
When we had no digital cameras... do you have an idea how long the models had to wait to see the contact sheets before selecting?
Let me assure you... it wasn't within a week. Wow! yes Udo those were the "good ole daze" I was lucky to have lived through part of them..........god we all worked ever harder at this, in the darkroom and with contacts and printing and usw. usw.
Photographer
lll
Posts: 12295
Seattle, Washington, US
UdoR wrote:
I have a 20/17 ratio, which means out of 20 frames I get usually 17 useable, fully distinct shots (different position, look, expression etc.). I shot recently a project for a website with one model and out of 201 frames, I was able to give 174 shots... same ratio... That's pretty darn good Udo! I get only about 26 per roll +/-2 on average. I shoot digital mostly, but I am weird, I still count by 36, and shoot it as if I am dealing with film.
Note to self: Need to work harder to get to Udo's level...eat more veggies!
Photographer
Majestic Visions
Posts: 67
Memphis, Tennessee, US
Put it in writing. In my model release it tells the model how soon they can expect to get the edited pictures.
Photographer
Samantha_Gatt
Posts: 812
Brooklyn, New York, US
I can't believe no one brought this up... but if you have to hunt down a photographer for photos, do you really think you'll be able to hunt them down for money for every day that they're late sending you photos?
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