MHana wrote:
Models Roll?   

Geez,  I could of save money of the transportation.

Well now you know.....and knowing is half the battle....

Mandie wrote:
The bigger issue here is not that there are parents that are willing to let their children (or coerce their children to) do these things, but that society makes these girls want to?

This is another thing I saw in your post in the other thread that I skipped over.One thing that a lot of people seem to be in such denial about is that we are all sexual beings. Some young girls actually just are normally that way, not all, some.It seems that the US is the only country which tries their damndest to repress sexuality as much as possible, which is one thing that has led to those sites, and porn, being so popular here.
The mindset the europeans have which leads them to make these types of sites and market them toward the  US is"what? pose in skimpy bikinis and pose and they will pay? I go nude on the beach all the time, I see nudity in my tv commercials many times a day, I see nudity on the billboards, and they pay to see girls in bikinis? where do we sign?"

EDIT: and another thing, the (role) models thing? Models are not to be role models. Models are simply still camera actors/actresses playing the part that the one hiring them needs them to play.

Mandie wrote:
I still think that some of those poses on that site are not natural for pre-teens at all.  Just going too far, I think.

Many times while watching my nieces grow up, I often saw them in what some could consider sexual positions, even while playing with other kids innocently, wrestling around, horse play,etc. There is a reason some sexual positions work so well, and that is because many of them are natural comfortable positions for the body to be in.

Mandie wrote:
I understand what you are saying completely...  I have many times argued that the drinking age should be lowered because I think that binge drinking and binge drinking-related deaths occur as a result of the fact that people over-indulge for the novelty of it, or because they won't necessarily have access to alcohol at a later date.  In Europe, people can go buy a bottle of wine as young as 13, so there aren't people clamouring for it and consuming as much as they can whenever they get the case. 

Your argument about sexuality in the US is very similar - sexuality or nudity isn't something that is just all over the place, so people get sick and twisted about it, and are willing to pay for it.

As I said, I totally understand.  But on the same token, while I understand that sex and sexuality are natural things, some people develop sexual desires earlier than others, and that some people are naturally more sexual than others, I still think that some of those poses on that site are not natural for pre-teens at all.  Just going too far, I think.

I typically stay out of these conversations but I really agree with this point.  Having lived in Europe and grown up in a European home here in the states, I can say without question that the Puritanical values in this country do more to fuck up children sexually than anything else - ESPECIALLY girls and women.  Hell, that's what it all is - a power play to control women!  I don't feel bad that my son or daughter could log onto this site and see your ass pointing at the camera.  Hell, I thank god that I can see it, I'm sure a son of mine would to (or maybe a daughter of mine for that matter)!  That doesn't bother me.  What bothers me is a society that is incapable of actually dealing with sex.  We don't deal with it.  We might show it.  We might elude to it.  We might snicker about it, or do it, but it is not a part of the healty framework of our lives as it is in Europe - just like drinking isn't.  Is it any wonder that most of the "children having children" are white trash in the red states (specifically the "bible" belt) where talk of sexuality (responsible, family talk) is verboten?  Oh and they also have the highest abortion rates as well...   They also consume the most porn.. 

I will soon be marrying the most wonderful woman I've ever known.  She's from the Czech republic, has lived here for years, but is still very European.  I hope to have a daughter with her.  And I hope that daughter will learn from both of us what it means to be a healthy, sexually empowered woman.  And even though she'll be my little girl, I hope that when she grows up, she'll enjoy sex as much as mother does and it will be important to her as it is to her mom.  It's good.  It's like eating or drinking or breathing.  It's necessary.

Sex isn't wrong.  Sexuality isn't wrong.  Pretending that "children" don't know what it is or don't develop in that area before the age of 20 (and therefore you don't talk about it and do everything in your power to shield them from it so that they grow up in a state of ignorance) is.

Paramour Productions wrote:

I typically stay out of these conversations but I really agree with this point.  Having lived in Europe and grown up in a European home here in the states, I can say without question that the Puritanical values in this country do more to fuck up children sexually than anything else - ESPECIALLY girls and women.  Hell, that's what it all is - a power play to control women!  I don't feel bad that my son or daughter could log onto this site and see your ass pointing at the camera.  Hell, I thank god that I can see it, I'm sure a son of mine would to (or maybe a daughter of mine for that matter)!  That doesn't bother me.  What bothers me is a society that is incapable of actually dealing with sex.  We don't deal with it.  We might show it.  We might elude to it.  We might snicker about it, or do it, but it is not a part of the healty framework of our lives as it is in Europe - just like drinking isn't.  Is it any wonder that most of the "children having children" are white trash in the red states (specifically the "bible" belt) where talk of sexuality (responsible, family talk) is verboten?  Oh and they also have the highest abortion rates as well...   They also consume the most porn.. 

I will soon be marrying the most wonderful woman I've ever known.  She's from the Czech republic, has lived here for years, but is still very European.  I hope to have a daughter with her.  And I hope that daughter will learn from both of us what it means to be a healthy, sexually empowered woman.  And even though she'll be my little girl, I hope that when she grows up, she'll enjoy sex as much as mother does and it will be important to her as it is to her mom.  It's good.  It's like eating or drinking or breathing.  It's necessary.

Sex isn't wrong.  Sexuality isn't wrong.  Pretending that "children" don't know what it is or don't develop in that area before the age of 20 (and therefore you don't talk about it and do everything in your power to shield them from it so that they grow up in a state of ignorance) is.

I love seeing people get half an idea and convinced that they can derive the whole answer with it..

Sorry, but I agree with big chunks of what you said, but totally disagree with your conclusions..

American sexuality is such a skewed and screwed up thing, but the concept that the Puritanical holdovers to our past are just about controlling women is ludicrous.

Denial of sexuality combined with marketing of sexuality is used to sell just about everything that can possibly sold in America, EXCEPT the one thing it was biologically built to sell: SEX..

The concept that Tyra Banks is a superstar for wiggling around in a Victoria's Secret bra or some designers lump of thread, while someone performing the same wiggle in a dance hall somewhere for tips is a whore is about one thing and one thing only.. MONEY..

If people weren't so pent up about sex, sexuality, what's ok, and what's not ok, what would corporations use to sell you everything from a more manly motor, to sexier slimming diet food?

Repression builds two things: desire and guilt.  We all know what a powerful motivational tool guilt is.. And desire is as redirectable as one of Pavlov's dogs..  America's still a repressed society because there's money in it..  And it's women AND men who are the victims of it..

(I'm tired.. Hopefully someone will point out how stupid this is, and tomorrow I'll think of a way to restate it so it makes sense..)

WG Rowland wrote:
I love seeing people get half an idea and convinced that they can derive the whole answer with it..

Sorry, but I agree with big chunks of what you said, but totally disagree with your conclusions..

American sexuality is such a skewed and screwed up thing, but the concept that the Puritanical holdovers to our past are just about controlling women is ludicrous.

Fuck you very much too. 

My point was that Puritanical behavior (as was most of the rules and behavior by organized religion in the past) was certainly about control and specifically about the control of women, who were thought to be especially dangerous (the whole adam and eve fiasco).  This very much was the case and the holdover of those values has the same effect, whether you care to acknowledge that or not. 

Many, many books have been written on this topic, perhaps they can explain it more eloquently than I.

Paramour Productions wrote:

Fuck you very much too. 

My point was that Puritanical behavior (as was most of the rules and behavior by organized religion in the past) was certainly about control and specifically about the control of women, who were thought to be especially dangerous (the whole adam and eve fiasco).  This very much was the case and the holdover of those values has the same effect, whether you care to acknowledge that or not. 

Many, many books have been written on this topic, perhaps they can explain it more eloquently than I.

I'd like to comment on this more (appology for rudeness sent privately..)  But I haven't slept in 36 hours.. And I just can not word my answer to save my life..

I DO agree with what your saying.. Just wanting to point out that the belief systems of our past have become the marketing tools of today.. And it's their power over both genders that give them value..

WG Rowland wrote:

I'd like to comment on this more (appology for rudeness sent privately..)  But I haven't slept in 36 hours.. And I just can not word my answer to save my life..

I DO agree with what your saying.. Just wanting to point out that the belief systems of our past have become the marketing tools of today.. And it's their power over both genders that give them value..

No worries.  As I said in my PM, here we use that phrase as kind of a joke when someone takes a shot at you.  It was not intended as anything more than that, but writing things on a forum never translates how you mean it...  So my apologies as well.

Look, I agree with you, but in this country we still have a double standard (at least in many parts of it).  Sure, the values are supposed to be equally applied to both genders but in practice that's never the case.  Men who sleep around when they are young, are still just sewing their wild oats and being studs, while women who do the same thing are still tramps and whores.  That is an issue of control.  It may not be as controlling as making them wear a burkah (sp?) and not allowing them to talk to anyone other than their husband, but it's still a form of control, it's just more subtle. 

And if you go back and see what I wrote, I know that sex is all around us in marketing and entertainment and what not.  BUT that doesn't mean that we actually deal with sex in a mature fashion and are any good at preparing our young people for it.  But you know what I mean..