Jessica Jill wrote:
Okay so I see all these post's about internet model's.  Here is my question.  How do you get the opportunity to be more than "just" an internet model?  Don't get me wrong, I love meeting new people and networking on the internet and working with the photographer's that I meet from here.  It is wonderful and great experience.  But, I want to do work that will be published on more than the internet.  I want to act, to share my abilities with more than www.........  My dreams are so much bigger and I feel as though I am scratching the surface here, but want to get so much deeper.  I know that a lot of people want more, but this is something that I have always wanted, am extremely passionate about and am confident that if I knew how, I would do something great with it.  I have always been told that I have the right attitude, personality and unique look to do something great for myself, but how.  I live in KY, which is great, but not exactly opportunistic without travel.  lol.  I don't see myself being average, blue collar, paycheck to paycheck for the rest of my life.  I have always known that I would do more, to open new doors for myself and my son. 
Any thoughts...advice...Kind words of wisdom?  Please be nice.....cause I am nice and wouldn't be mean to you. ;0)

Jessica,

First find out how many land based agencies are in your area. Second, get your face noticed at those agencies!
If you are truly serious about your modeling career, you need to take a hard look at what your style is and where you want to go with it. For instance if you want to do glamour, realize that you have lots of competition out there. Get every edge you can!
Stick to your morals/limitations. So many models say one  thing and then when someone offers them a (what the model thinks is) hefty amount of money, they lose the morals and limitations. Be smart and plan for your future. Modeling is like any other job, you need to work at it to advance.
Best of luck to you!!!

Rich

Thanks,

JJ~ XoXo

Jessica Jill wrote:
Thank You both!  Actually there is one agency out here but you have to pay to take classes before they represent you.  Like 1200.00...I cannot afford that being a single mom. Plus I hate the thought of paying to take classes in order to have representation.  Other than that, nothin else out here in that rhelm.
I am actually wanting to fly to somewhere with opp's and check it out.  California...I LOVE California.  I have never been to Georgia...so they have good opp's there for modeling/acting too?  Hot dog.  Just have to save the flight money up.   Working on that too...  I wish I could afford to...quit my job...that would open up so much more time for me to do what I want to do.  Darn bills!!!!!!!!!!! 
And just to be frank.....I am EXTREMELY serious about acting/modeling and EXTREMELY passionate about it.  I just have some speed bumps that I have to figure out how to accel over.  But I will once I know how to get there. :0) 

JJ~

Jess,

Most of the legit agencies will not ask you for a dime up front. If you have the look they are looking for, they will work their butts off to get you work. It's only then that they actually make money...
Also just an fyi... you do not need professional pics for an agency. Most will accept a polaroid. My best advice is for you visit your library and read as much as you can on the business of modeling. Once you're armed with the correct info, you'll be able to get your career off the ground! 

Rich Meade wrote:
Well jessica.. I think you have a good look... very commercial...

My advice to you is move..   Lexington isn't exactly a hotbed of modeling opportunity.

I suggest atlanta... it has a very strong commercial/lifestyle market, and plenty of agencies to get into... which will lead to makeing $$$

If you are serious about your modeling and truly passionate... take a vacation to a bigger city that has more agencies... schedule some shoots, and get your book together, and go to some open calls.  You'll never know unless you try it.

This is extremely irresponsible advice.

No good commercial agency ever suggests that a person relocate to be a commercial model.  It's unethical.  If you don't know why, you shouldn't be giving advice to commercial models.

It's worse:  this girl is pretty, and does have a "commercial look" - but she is 5' 2" tall.  Her chances of getting with a good agency in a larger market city are near zero.  Suggesting she move to pursue commercial modeling is doing her and others like her a great disservice.

Rich Mohr wrote:
Most of the legit agencies will not ask you for a dime up front. If you have the look they are looking for, they will work their butts off to get you work. It's only then that they actually make money...

Actually that's not true, especially in smaller markets.  Let me use Houston as an example.  There are two "real agencies" here (you can decide on "legitimate" for yourself, but they are the ones that get most of the modeling work).  Houston is not a very good market for models - in Texas that work is mostly done in Dallas.  So they supplement their income by requiring virtually all model applicants to take classes from the schools they also own.

That's unfortunate, and not a good idea for most of the people who take those classes.  But it's typical of the things done in smaller markets (not "smaller cities" - Houston is a very big city) by agencies when there isn't enough work to keep the agency doors open without finding some way beside commissions on work to bring in income.

In a situation like that it's generally best, particularly for people who don't meet "modeling standards" of height, to try to find work outside the agency system, unless they are just doing it for fun.

Rich Mohr wrote:
Also just an fyi... you do not need professional pics for an agency. Most will accept a polaroid.

That is true for fashion agencies.  It is much less true, or not true at all, for 5'2" girls who are trying to become commercial models.

Rich Mohr wrote:
My best advice is for you visit your library and read as much as you can on the business of modeling. Once you're armed with the correct info, you'll be able to get your career off the ground! 

I've read 23 books on modeling so far.  Of those, only two dealt in any realistic way with modeling other than fashion modeling.  Those two are generally not in the library.  Could you please explain which books you think she should read in the library that would actually help her?

TXPhotog wrote:
I've read 23 books on modeling so far.  Of those, only two dealt in any realistic way with modeling other than fashion modeling.  Those two are generally not in the library.

Which two are these?

Brian Diaz wrote:
Which two are these?

I'll send you a PM, Brian.  I was hoping Rich could come up with them on his own, since he made the recommendation.

Jessica Jill wrote:
Thanks guys!   I can say that there have been some people who have made it from Kentucky.  Mimi from Days of our Lives started out at the agency here in Lexington.  The boy from Peter Pan did as well.   There are more from this area, but cannot think of them.  Just wish I was wealthier or had a way to get the money I need to put into this agency if it really will do something great for me.  I know that sounds bad, but my tree is lacking the water it needs to grow that cash, lol.

JJ~ XoXo

Jessica, I need to point out that the two people you mentioned are both actors, not models.  That makes a world of difference in the opportunities for someone like you.

TXPhotog wrote:

Jessica, I need to point out that the two people you mentioned are both actors, not models.  That makes a world of difference in the opportunities for someone like you.

Oh I know that, but see I want both....I love both...enjoy both. :0)

TXPhotog wrote:
This is extremely irresponsible advice.

No good commercial agency ever suggests that a person relocate to be a commercial model.  It's unethical.  If you don't know why, you shouldn't be giving advice to commercial models.

It's worse:  this girl is pretty, and does have a "commercial look" - but she is 5' 2" tall.  Her chances of getting with a good agency in a larger market city are near zero.  Suggesting she move to pursue commercial modeling is doing her and others like her a great disservice.

Well seeing how you are in such a HUGE commercial area, and Texas has such a reputation for modeling... I'm sure you could enlighten all of us.. instead of blatently trashing others experiences without justification.

My post was just advice... she could take it our leave it... she obviously has other factors that will inhibit her taking such a leap... however if you read my post carefully.. I suggested that she VISIT a bigger city.. and see how it goes for a week... not drop everything and go!

kisses

-Rich

Rich Meade wrote:
Well seeing how you are in such a HUGE commercial area, and Texas has such a reputation for modeling... I'm sure you could enlighten all of us.. instead of blatently trashing others experiences without justification.

There is lots and lots of justification.  To suggest that a 5'2" model should relocate to another city to be a commercial model is extremely bad advice.  That's equally true in Georgia, Texas and New York City.  If you don't know that, you shouldn't be giving advice.

Rich Meade wrote:
My post was just advice... she could take it our leave it...

So it's OK to give rotten, dangerous advice because someone might not take it?  That's absurd.  On that theory any old nonsense at all could be said, and it would be just fine.  Is there no responsibility at all for saying dangerous things?

Rich Meade wrote:
however if you read my post carefully.. I suggested that she VISIT a bigger city.. and see how it goes for a week... not drop everything and go!

I did read your post carefully.  After telling her that she should relocate you then suggested a visit.

So what happens on the visit?  It goes well (whatever that means) or it goes badly.  If it "goes well" is that any reason at all for relocating to another city to be a commercial model?  NO!  Following your advice you could end up with the worst of all possible cases:  someone at the other place says things she wants to hear (nothing more important than that will happen in a week), and she takes your advice and moves.  That would be a tragedy.  One that you contributed to.

Rich Meade wrote:
You don't get anywhere by playing it safe...  who knows.. she could go to NY and get signed straight away... then again.. she could fall flat on her face...  By no means should anyone take anyones advice as fact... it was my opinion... and what I would tell anyone who asks, but again.. I would rather try and fail than look back and say "What if"...

You have to fight, and struggle for your dreams.. if that means sitting at home and trying to make a living off of MM then so be it...but if for one chance to maybe live your dream... why not take a week and go for it?  To me its worth everything to have that one chance to get to where I want to be.

You might want to think about that the next time you drive home.. "Is this where I really want to be?  What could I have done to change it?  WHAT CAN I DO?"

I will not touture all of you by posting it again.

But this explains my view on the issue.
Marksora's Quantum W. Mechanics Hung modeling theory
https://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=1982
(Ps  I know it needs some editing)

And I agree that it was bad advice.

Rich Meade wrote:
You don't get anywhere by playing it safe...  who knows.. she could go to NY and get signed straight away... then again.. she could fall flat on her face...

You really don't understand, do you?

In New York the good commercial print agencies don't have open calls.  If you go there for a week you will never get in their doors.  You have to send an application first to see any of them - and if the application comes in from someplace hundreds of miles away, they simply won't respond.  The trip would be pointless.  But you don't know that, because you don't understand how the commercial agencies in New York work.

And in any event, she won't get "signed", because in New York that means signed to an exclusive, and New York commercial print agencies don't sign their models to exclusive contracts.  Certainly you knew that . . .

But that leads me right back to my "worst case" above.  Suppose she does go to New York, and suppose she does get "signed" (however defined).  And she moves.  Then what?  You see, that's the problem.  Commercial agencies don't give that advice, and you should not give that advice, because the probability of getting enough work to make the move worthwhile is miniscule, and the cost very great.

Oh, it's easy for you to sit in front of your computer screen and give that advice.  You don't have to take the consequences.  You don't even have to consider the consequenses for her because, after all, people might not take your advice.  How irresponsible is that?

If advice isn't worth taking, it shouldn't be given.  If it is given, you should give it with the knowledge that someone actually might take it, and be more responsible about what you say.

Rich Meade wrote:
By no means should anyone take anyones advice as fact... it was my opinion... and what I would tell anyone who asks, but again.. I would rather try and fail than look back and say "What if"...

If you want to take risks that good professionals would advise against, that's up to you.  You are the one getting the payoff (if there is one) and paying the price, if there is one to be paid.  But you can't play fast and loose with other people's lives when there are severe consequences likely for following your advice.

Rich Meade wrote:
You have to fight, and struggle for your dreams.. if that means sitting at home and trying to make a living off of MM then so be it...but if for one chance to maybe live your dream... why not take a week and go for it?  To me its worth everything to have that one chance to get to where I want to be.

Again, it doesn't matter what is worth anything to you.  What matters is that there are real human beings that you are advising to take unacceptably large risks with an extremely small probability of payoff.  Nowhere in your advice did you mention to her that it was extremely unlikely that a relocation to be a commercial model would work out well for her.  All upside, no downside in what you advised.  (And no, your "give it a week" advice does not suffice.  Nothing worth getting excited or perturbed about happens in a single week-long trip.  Just promises.)

Rich Meade wrote:
You might want to think about that the next time you drive home.. "Is this where I really want to be?  What could I have done to change it?  WHAT CAN I DO?"

I've had a very long and full career, and have had such a wide variety of experiences that I'm very happy with what I've done, thank you.  And I'm here because I made a conscious decision that this is where I wanted to be, and made it happen.  So I've got no trouble at all "driving home".

Rich Meade wrote:
My points are on the perspective of "Give it a try.. if it works.. great... if not.. move on."

You continue not to recognize any responsibility for the costs and risks of the advice you give.

To go to New York, including travel, hotels for a week, the test shoots you recommend and other expenses in a very expensive city, would cost a minimum of $2,000.  She has already said she can't afford the $1,200 for the ripoff agency local to her.  The "open calls" you recommend do not exist for commercial models in NYC.  The probability of success on such a trip is near zero.  Yet you continue to feel comfortable recommending to a single mother that she take that trip, and incur that expense, without ever mentioning to her the costs and probability of success.

Sorry, I cannot see that as responsible advice.

Rich Meade wrote:
But your posts just came off as completely defeatist... Sure my posts may be giving false hope... and yours may be completely destroying peoples dreams...

My post isn't "defeatist" - I said nothing at all about the local options she has.  And she probably has some as an actress, which she also said she wants to do.  Rather I was reacting to your advice to her and pointing out the extremely large probability that your advice would lead to defeat.  A defeat she cannot afford.

If you don't want to be "defeatist", try suggesting something she has a reasonable probability of success at.  You didn't.

Rich Meade wrote:
but thats what these forums are for... for everyone to voice their opinions.

That may be true.  In fact, reading the "mission statement" of the site, it could well be true.  However, if "everyone voicing their opinions" leads to irresponsible advice being given to vulnerable people who are not in a position to recognize the extreme risks of that advice, it seems to me to be a very unfortunate state of affairs.  I have to believe the owners here would want better.

Jessica Jill wrote:
How do you get the opportunity to be more than "just" an internet model?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say something that may piss off a lot of people.

MM, OMP, etc, and "internet modeling" is a social environment. Some people do very fine work both as models and photographers.  There are many artistic people here with ideas and creativity. Personally, I find it to be an enjoyable and stimulating environment, and I've met lots of nice people.

This is not where money and business lies. Very few people know how to build and survive in business. Blind leading the blind is not a road out of here.

If you want money, there are other places to stack it up much faster. Internet modeling and Internet photographry is mostly for the Labor of Love, practice and stimulation. We can earn 3rd World wages, maybe. Some people aspire to do weddings. There is tons of ego and self esteem around here as part of this equation. Lots of people pick up a few hundred bucks here and there randomly. Most people who blab to the contrary are kidding themselves, or they are parroting someone else who doesn't know any more than they do.

Of course there are real business people harvesting for talent and ideas here, but it's a minority. It also is generally exploitative for their purpose, not yours. They are more in the shadows. The chance of hooking up with them in a way that pays off for the model is slim to none.

Modeling for money is a business like any other business. Business is tough. It's not for everyone. You have to be your own CEO and entrepreneur if you want to build a business. Nobody will hand that to you on a silk pillow, especially if they have a REALLY neat camera and no business sense at all.

If you want to make money, go sell a product that is in demand for a big markup. Go find a customer base. Create a market and punch it. Photography and modeling can be an avocation that supports this, but it will not provide serious dependable income as it's own end. You can find resources and ideas here.

In the meantime, learn, practice and have as much fun as you can. Meet nice people. Enjoy art for art's sake. Opportunities are anywhere we find them.

Life is sweet.

Stan Schutze
http://www.pbase.com/schutze/modeling

Rich Meade wrote:
I don't ever remember say... "you should move to new york"... I did use it in an example... but I was more along the lines of suggesting Atlanta... which has a market for her "type"... which by my caluclations is only 6hours drive from lexington.  but you if you want to just pick out the extremes of my posts go ahead..

Not extremes, just an example you used.  I didn't make it up.

But let's use Atlanta.  You claim she should go there for a week, shoot some tests, attend open calls.  So do the math for us. 

1.  How much will it cost to get there and stay in a hotel for a week?  Include meals and in-town travel.

2.  How much will it cost for the test shoots you recommend?  Bear in mind that these need to be of agency quality, lifestyle shots.  So how much does it cost in Atlanta to hire good test photographers to do those?  (If you want to claim it could be done TFP, please indicate who, in your judgment, does agency-quality lifestyle pictures for free.  I don't know of many photographers like that.)

3.  What agencies in Atlanta that accept 5'2" 27 year old models have open calls that she could go to?  (Real agencies, not modeling schools masquerading as agencies.)

4.  Earlier you raised the issue of experience, and implied that yours was adequate to make these kinds of recommendations.  So, based on your experience, how much would a typical 5'2" Caucasian female 27 year old model be likely to book per year in the Atlanta market, assuming she is signed by the agencies you recommend?

5.  Assuming, as you say we must, that an agency you recommend signs her, how much is it likely to cost to move there?  (You did recommend that, if she was signed.)  What is the probability that she will ever recover those costs through modeling in Atlanta?

You see?  No extremes.  Your area of claimed experience.  Your example that you now say is what you really meant.  So show us how, given the realities of her case, it was a reasonable thing to recommend.

(As an aside, I know bookers in Atlanta too, including the lifestyle booker at Elite Atlanta.  So I can easily check on any claims you make about the market there.)

And why is this so important now?  After all, I suspect the OP has pretty much gotten the message.  So why bother, since you seem to want to leave the field?

Rich Meade wrote:
it was my opinion... and what I would tell anyone who asks . . .

It remains your opinion, because you have never been forced to confront the realities of what you suggest.  And the next time you "advise" someone you are likely to say the same things, out of the scrutiny of people who would keep you honest.  And people who read this also say the same things, with no understanding of what they have just recommended.

I have sat across the desk from literally hundreds of girls who received advice like what you give, who wasted countless dollars and time pursuing something that never could have been, and that anyone who actually understood the industry never would have said.  Sure, they felt good at the time the advice was given, and they "pursued their dream" - which made the fall at the end all the harder.  It's heartbreaking to have to deal with those girls at those times when they finally realize they have been led down a garden path - and it's a heartbreak I have had to share all too often.

You don't have to share in that heartbreak.  You get to make them feel good, and then walk away before they find out it is all a tissue of misinformation.  Then people like me have had to clean up the mess.  That's what I meant earlier about you being responsible for what you say.

Jessica Jill wrote:
Thank You both!  Actually there is one agency out here but you have to pay to take classes before they represent you.  Like 1200.00...
THEY ARE NOT A REAL AGENCY! Real agencies make their money of getting you work and don't require you to "take classes" as part of thier accetance policy...look them up in the Better Business Bureau...bet there are tons of complaints against them. They are a SCHOOL...They may have an agency licence but they make their money off the lessions. Probably do your portfolio too! And I bet they GUARENTEE you work! NOT possible!
Come to CA!
Mike

Ken Mierzwa wrote:
Look at the bright side; you're centrally located.  From Lexington, it's not difficult to get to Chicago,  New York, Atlanta, or Miami.

The paradox is that it's the internet which makes it possibly to model from smaller markets.  You're able to identify opportunities before spending anything to physically get to bigger places.

But I'm going to side with the guy who says you don't need to pay an agency; legit agencies make their money off commissions.  There are way too many scam agencies charging models.

I do recommend travel as it's practical, the experience is valuable even if all you get out of it is a few shoots.  But don't have any illusions about California.  If you want to live here for the mild weather or the lifestyle in general, then go for it.  But Los Angeles has the most attractive hotel desk clerks and waiters in the U.S.  Most of them are working as extras in the film industry and waiting for a break that may or may not ever come.  It's true there are more opportunities in LA, but there is also a lot more competition.  Sometimes medium-sized markets are much easier to break into quickly, if you're able to identify the right niche market

I applaud your desire to move beyond the small city blue-collar paycheck.  To be honest, the way to do that is through education and hard work.  I won't discourage you from taking a shot at modeling, you're an attractive young lady and from a quick look your work is more dynamic than a lot of what I see here.  But realistically, few make a full time living this way.
It's wise to assume it will be a supplemental income, and have a fall back plan for the longer term.

Thank you for the advice.  I would like to explore both modeling and acting as well.  I do understand that it is a cut throat and competitive market and that few make it.  But the way I see it is if few make it, why shouldn't I be one of them.   It's like the lottery someone's gotta win, might as well be you, lol.

I am looking into traveling more, mainly on the weekends. And mainly to places I can afford to travel, like Chicago etc that have open calls I would be able to attend.  Just working on the savings to be able to do that.  

I honestly go nuts working in a cube everyday, not what I want to do.  It pays the bills, but I see so much more opportunity out there.  Alot of people want things but don't ever work towards obtaining them.  I am willing to do that for whatever I am able to do to obtain it.  I am a very energetic, hardworking and dedicated person.  I would love the chance to use that in a form which will better my life, as well as show myself that goals and dreams are obtainable if you work hard and believe in yourself.  Not to say that people who don't make it don't think that way.  I just don't intend on ever giving up on my goals until I feel I have obtained what I want in life.  Okay, I am babbling now, I shall hush.  Thanks again. :0)

TXPhotog wrote:
Jessica, your problem has kind of gotten lost in the swirl around the bad advice given earlier.  So let me suggest something to you.

Your height is a severe disadvantage in modeling.  It's not in acting.

The real actors here will groan when I say that, because acting is a craft, and it takes a lot of effort to master the craft.  But commercial acting (on, for instance, TV commercials) doesn't take a lot of acting ability, no matter what they say.  I don't know how much TV commercial production is done in Lexington, but I'd look into it, if I were you.  I'd also look into pathways to film and TV productions that might happen in the Lexington area.  I don't think it's exactly a hotbed, but there easily could be independent productions in the area that are low-budget (read:  low to no pay) which you could get involved with to get a resume and experience.

In Denver there is a fairly robust TV production market, and a respectable amount of print work.  The print is pretty much all dominated by one agency, but there are several talent agencies there as well who do the "on camera" TV work.  What they recommend is that a person who doesn't qualify as an agency model start out as a stage or TV performer, and then segue into modeling once their face becomes known.

There still isn't likely to be a lot of work for you in Lexington - but if you can get your face and name known doing ANYTHING it can translate into opportunities in other fields and other regions.

Thank you, and I have been looking into that and do know a couple people who do those.  Because of my height (why oh why did I get the short gene, grrr, lol) I know that relocating for modeling would be absurd on my behalf.  I love love love modeling, but I do love being in front of a camera period as well.  My dream is just that and hopefully, no matter how much people try to defer me, I will remain positive about the fact that I have something unique and great to offer and be able to somehow, someway make it where I want to be.  I will NEVER quit modeling, even if it is minor stuff, because I love and have a passion for it, but tv/acting is also a sincere passion of mine as well.  Both always have been and always will be.   Love you all and thank you for your help/opinions.

JJ~XoXo