David A wrote:
Paypal walks like a bank, talks like a bank and stinks like a bank but in the end, they are not a bank.  A bank will stand behind the consumer if a transaction goes bad.  Paypal WILL NOT.

AND Paypal shies from any adult oriented business doesn't it? Or has that changed?

David A wrote:
Paypal walks like a bank, talks like a bank and stinks like a bank but in the end, they are not a bank.  A bank will stand behind the consumer if a transaction goes bad.  Paypal WILL NOT.

Well said.  I got a chargeback (it's what they call a failed payment) months after the transaction had, I thought, gone through.

I now only use it for ebay, where there are other guarantees which cover you.  I wouldn't use it for personal transactions with a stranger.

RED Photographic wrote:

Well said.  I got a chargeback (it's what they call a failed payment) months after the transaction had, I thought, gone through.

I now only use it for ebay, where there are other guarantees which cover you.  I wouldn't use it for personal transactions with a stranger.

So it "protects" you differently for business transactions other than Ebay goods? Well, that sucks!!! :-(

shimmer wrote:

AND Paypal shies from any adult oriented business doesn't it? Or has that changed?

I used to accept donations in support of my website via PayPal, until PayPal decided that my web site, which features (my attempt at) fine art nude photography violated their acceptable use policies.  They froze my account (with $500 in it), denied my appeals, and were incredibly judgemental & nasty.  I was flabbergasted -- especially in light of all the questionable stuff for sale on EBay (EBay owns PayPal).

You see, they are not a bank.  They can decide whether you are worthy of being their customers for arbitrary reasons.  They can seize & keep your money.  They are arrogant pricks.

So, I got a merchant account & said goodbye to PayPal.  I won't use it ever again.

shimmer wrote:
I believe it's an ebay associated company.

Ebay owns Paypal.  There are now new laws in place that make it tougher for a company like Ebay to exist online.  That is why they bought Paypal a couple years ago.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

I used to accept donations in support of my website via PayPal, until PayPal decided that my web site, which features (my attempt at) fine art nude photography violated their acceptable use policies.  They froze my account (with $500 in it), denied my appeals, and were incredibly judgemental & nasty.  I was flabbergasted -- especially in light of all the questionable stuff for sale on EBay (EBay owns PayPal).

You see, they are not a bank.  They can decide whether you are worthy of being their customers for arbitrary reasons.  They can seize & keep your money.  They are arrogant pricks.

So, I got a merchant account & said goodbye to PayPal.  I won't use it ever again.

You did the right thing!  I have done that also.  Setting up your own merchant account is the way to go!

Looknsee Photography wrote:
You see, they are not a bank.  They can decide whether you are worthy of being their customers for arbitrary reasons.  They can seize & keep your money.  They are arrogant pricks.

So, I got a merchant account & said goodbye to PayPal.  I won't use it ever again.

That's pretty much how I feel.

David A wrote:
Paypal walks like a bank, talks like a bank and stinks like a bank but in the end, they are not a bank.  A bank will stand behind the consumer if a transaction goes bad.  Paypal WILL NOT.

I agree 100%-------PayPal SUCKS big time there is even a site about just that.

http://paypalsucks.com

It's a form of payment for and by Ebay . They will give ,as David stated ,absolutely NO support if you have a problem with a buyer . In fact they only add to the problem .

Pryclss wrote:
So basically instead of playing the heads-or-taisl game with Paypal, it's better to just have the client (or whomever) pay you at the time of the shot? Whether it be by cash, check, or credit card?

In order to accept credit cards (about 96% of transactions on the Internet are done with credit cards) you need a merchant account.  If you want to set up a "pay to view" or a download site, then you really need to set it up right! 

I've paid to have my own software built for providing all the tools I need to do business online.  How ever I've got to be careful still because of the laws that are now in place to prevent me from sharing that technology with you.  I guess I should prepare writing something to explain further ... but let's just say that Visa and MC do not want another Ebay out there!  So it's everyone for themselves .. at least on the public forum. 

Here ... read this;  Credit Cards and Factoring  and it will give you a better understanding.

Pryclss wrote:
So basically instead of playing the heads-or-taisl game with Paypal, it's better to just have the client (or whomever) pay you at the time of the shot? Whether it be by cash, check, or credit card?

OK, let me explain it better.  Every business transaction with a credit card has three entities involved - customer, merchant (or business), bank (or in this case paypal = Not a bank).

As a customer, you have some protection using a credit card because the bank will stand behind you if there is a problem.  They will reach into the merchants account and give you your money back.  This is done in cases where the customer wasn't delivered what was promised etc.

The merchant or business accepts credit cards and pays a percentage for doing so.  The benefit is a fairly reliable form of payment that hits the account within a couple days.  If there is a problem with a transaction, the merchant is given the chance to comment on the problem.  The bank makes a final decision as to what to do - refund the customer etc.  As a merchant we accept this possibility and write it off as a cost of doing business.

Bank - The banks relationship is with the merchant.  They want a good long lasting relationship so they try not to screw their merchants but sometimes - many times - things are in favor of the customer and the merchant is on the loosing end.  At least there was some form of review.

Paypal - If something goes wrong -say you accidentally send the money to the wrong email address.  You try to call them and get them to re-direct the money to the correct account - you're screwed.  They don't care, they won't help.  They'll tell you to contact the person you sent the money to and have them send it back.  They are complete crap when it comes to customer service.  ALL they want is their percentage.

So as a customer you are much better protected by using your credit card and not using paypal.  As a business you don't benefit much either way so you might as well have an established relationship with a bank that cares about you a little.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
I pay my models in cash! 

I give'm a check and have cash handy to cash it for them.  Paper trail for me, cash for the model.  Everyone wins.

David A wrote:
I give'm a check and have cash handy to cash it for them.  Paper trail for me, cash for the model.  Everyone wins.

Now that is smart, David!   I like your thinking ...  you get their signature and they smile as they get the cash in hand too.  That is a win/win  PLUS backs up the contract or model release signed.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Now that is smart, David!   I like your thinking ...  you get their signature and they smile as they get the cash in hand too.  That is a win/win  PLUS backs up the contract or model release signed.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
My bank was terrific -- all the charges were reversed, and I cancelled my credit card & checking account (which were linked to PayPal -- the overcharges were charged to my credit card).  In the end, I was out nothing, but I had to go through the hassle of changing my credit card & checking account.  Now, 9 month later, I'm still cleaning up.

PayPal was no help at all.  They didn't care.


Tagent Note:  There are a lot of phishing spam e-mails out there, all designed to steal your PayPal account.  Whenever I got one, I would forward it (without reading it) to PayPal, but they never did anything about it -- I didn't even get an automated acknowledgement.


The sad fact is that there really isn't an alternative to PayPal, short of getting your own merchant account, which costs $$$.  PayPal's fraud prevention & investigation services are insufficient.  It's a key service, one that is needed, but it is unregulated & not secure.

It's NOT overly expensive to get your own merchant account set up!  I have done a great deal of research into merchant account providers the past couple of months.   There is what they call a "gateway" which is the go between for the merchant account (You!) and the bank card itself.  Now I wish I could provide you with the use of my shopping carts, etc. but that is called "factoring" which is illegal according to bank card useage laws.  It is when someone sells product or services for someone else, by defination ... very much like what Ebay does.  However, Ebay bought Paypal before the credit card laws tightened down on the terms of use for merchant accounts. 

Honestly, I know how hard it is to get a business going online!  In order to sell your services or product online, you need to be able to collect from credit cards.  Now that I have it set up for myself, I wish I could help everyone, but I can't directly provide billing for others.  I had to go through the process of getting accepted as merchant.  The business that is providing me with my merchant account is really a team of account provider, gateway provider, and sales department that is excellent!  I can refer other photographers and models who are looking to set up their own merchant account. 

This is NOT the section of the forum to promote a business, and I will not disclose the name of my merchant account provider on a public forum, but I will say that a merchant account can be set up for less than $100 ...

If you want to know more about who my provider is, you need to send me a message ... ok.