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How do you justify your rate?
Posted by Cestra Winslow: Apr 24 05 04:19 am Link Apr 24 05 06:55 am Link Posted by theda: It has avery bit of bearing to show that a photographer has done this and is proven to work for an editorial magazine. Most Magazines want to see tears in your book before they consider you unless you are absolutely exceptional. The same goes for a model...unless she/he is ABSOLUTELY exceptional. Apr 26 05 07:05 am Link I was a news photographer for several years during and after college. After an accident that made it impossible to hold a camera longer than a few minutes, I evolved into a computer geek... with top InfoSecurity certifications and approaching a Master's degree. I know what I make as an independant consultant as well as what it costs me to live, play and buy new camera/studio gear. Now that I can physically shoot again (and am loving it), my rate is based on what it takes for me to be interested in dropping everything else to shoot (and edit). Of course this can vary depending on what I'm shooting. Last month I spent 5 hours shooting backstage with full access to the Dove Award winning band Casting Crowns... no charge. I foresaw their awards and knew there would be editorial demand for the images. I also knew they were interested in using the images for a tour book and in ads. So there should be money coming from that shoot. I shoot a few models for trade to help build their portfolio and mine... and I use those opportunities to try out new lighting/posing/set/location ideas. I also donate lots of shooting time to my church. Weddings, seniors, families, etc ... they're all done for cash... and those rates are based on what my time is worth. Hmm.. now that I've said that, it's probably time to revisit my rates and bump them in a few places. Apr 26 05 08:07 am Link I have to eat and pay rent and lights. If I don't get paid I don't eat. My rates have to show a profit from shoots someway or the other or I can't do them. I pretty much have a day rate in my head and build my priorities on that. If a TFP will benifit my advertising and the modle agrees to the use of the TFP I will do it. Their has to be some reward for me and the model to justify any shoot. Apr 26 05 08:15 am Link Justifying pay even without experience/tears model point of view: Waxing,the gym, make-up, razors, manicure/pedicure, clothing, shlepping, train fair, hair products, printers and paper to print my pics after CD is given and also time as most of us on here have day jobs. Would you work a part-time job for free that required you to purchase all of the above? I know photographers need money for equipment but above is mine. I don't overcharge and hell I do a lot of TFP. I just get CRAZY when photographers say we shouldn't get paid at all! Apr 26 05 09:32 am Link It's a matter of supply and demand and ultimately doing whatever works for you. I justify my rates based on the fact that photography is my sole source of income and that there is enough demand for my work to allow me to continue doing what I'm doing. I don't pay models and I rarely provide TFP. It is clear when my clients work with me that I am providing a service. I've invested tens of thousands of dollars for the equipment I own and I pay a good chunk of change each month for the studio space I have. And I pay insurance for that space and liability for my clients while they are in that space. And when all is said and done, 30% of my income goes directly to taxes. My business is focussed on providing the best service and best experience possible and it is how I put food on the table. My efforts in this area have a direct impact on my income, which is why I take it seriously. The services that I provide are what typically generate demand for a model and, in turn, provide her a source from which to make money. When a model brings as much or more to the table as I do, then that's when I will consider paying them. But I have yet to meet a model whose sole source of income is truly modeling (porn sites, well that's another story). I am not suggesting that models should not be paid, but there's more to modeling than just being beautiful. Fortunately, there are enough photographers willing to pay models that models can make some money... but I would argue that this isn't professional modeling and I hope that models trying to "make it" have goals beyond just getting paid by amateur photographers. Professional modeling involves working for clients with a specific goal/product in mind. Simply getting paid by amateur photographers who are in no way going to make money from the photographs they take with you...that's just a strange side affect of this industry. Apr 26 05 09:54 am Link I guess it's a bad idea to tell the client that "If you have to ask, you can't afford..."? Apr 26 05 10:02 am Link [b] Well stated! Getting paid by amateur photographers seems like a product of the internet. Apr 26 05 10:16 am Link Posted by Chanti: I ask for a cd of images plus my rate when doing photo shoots. Some photogs are fine with it. Some aren't. I dont agree with models posing nude and doing tfp. I sure as hell dont and never will. Im not comfortable with anyone having images of me that I myself dont have. I have a problem with that statement. To me its either one or the other. Apr 26 05 10:18 am Link "How do you justify your rates?" Nice question... I guess from my own personal point of view... I figure in material cost and time... Then whether or not the shoot is nude or not... because, heh heh heh... I have to be honest, if I have to stare at someone's @$$ all day I want a little extra. Is that a good answer? Apr 26 05 11:39 am Link Models do need to be more realistic in thier assessment of thier worth. If you are posting a cell phone image, please don't expect to get $150 an hour for non nude glamour. On the other hand, I've been fortunate enough to work with models that should be charging more than they do. I may be naive, but I know my work isnt professional...yet. So I appreciate any model I work with, if they are willing to do a TFP shoot, that's great but I try to give them $40/50 for the expense of meeting me. Have you bought gas in california? Like wise even if I hire a model at the rates we agreed on, I still give her a disc of images. If she like them, it will only help me in the long run. Apr 26 05 11:54 am Link For some reason, no one, not even me cited the bg real justifaction for rates: USAGE If the image will have a high resale cvalue, all parties involved are entitled to higher rate. And yes, that includes as of yet unpublished models. Apr 27 05 02:07 am Link Starting with the original post, it was brought up as basically "what have you done to deserve your rates?". Answering just that, I have 6 years experience, have been in "major magazines", have two starring movies on HBO and in all rental stores including Blockbuster. But putting that aside, I agree with Theda. I base it on usage and is usually one of my first questions. I also figure in what expenses I will incur and split that in half. I try to have everything under the sun so that I never have to run out and buy something, but it's impossible to have *everything*. Apr 27 05 03:42 am Link Just a thought about rates and their justifications. It's a little slanted and may not apply to anything other than art photography but here goes: Assumptions: * Two models with very similar looks * Living in the same market * Both have Art Nude checked in their profiles * Model A has rates of $100+ per hour * Model B has rates of $35 per hour Results: Model A complains that most of her offers are from dirty old men who want her to run around naked while they bang away with their "point and shoot cameras. She also complains that she almost never sees offers from real, serious art oriented photographers. She rolls her eyes back in her head, swallows her pride, takes four or five gigs a month and takes home about $1,000 a month or $12,000 a year (based on two hour shoots) from her modeling for GWCs. Because, you see, fat, smelly, old letchers can afford the freight. Starving artists can't. Model B gets more offers than she can handle, some of which are certainly from GWCs (they just wont go away, will they?). She gets to pick and choose, so she turns down anyone whos portfolio smells like ripe cheese. Because she can pretty much work whenever she wants to, she books about 25 hours a week. That nets her about $875 a week or about $44,000 a year before taxes (because she also takes two weeks off to get a tan in Hawaii). Shes shot with some of the most creative art photographers in her area who have no problem giving her a residual on gallery sales (which adds to her income at an ever increasing rate) and has a reputation among them for being the greatest model in the world. Apr 27 05 09:59 am Link Posted by Joe Kozlowski: A great hypothetical comparison, well done Joe! Many people don't realize that if the price is right, more people will want to pay that price, regardless of the product or service. Volume = success Apr 27 05 02:46 pm Link "How do you justify your rates" This is a really good question. Rates are based on not only the beauty of a model but the whole package (ex. reliability, creativity, ability to move, to pose, to understand and interpret the photographer's vision). Before you decide to pay a model you should always have communicated with her several times to know that she is professional and experienced. I justify my rate, and my rate is pretty reasonable because I am very professional, I am outgoing, I give creative ideas to the photographer and more...YET, want to get what he wants done also. Pay should be commeasurate with experience and/or usage of the images. If the model wants a CD of the images, the rate should be lowered accordingly. If the photographer plans on making money from the images and wants full rights, expect to pay more. Like a normal regular day job, modeling is also a job, and should be treated as one. Some girls do this for a living it is their "job". If you're always late, if you're unreliable, if you show up hung over or unprepared, if you have a poor attitude, don't expect much work. Again this goes back to communication being there also. Obviously a model when starting out should ALWAYS do TFP way before they start doing paid work. It benefits the photographer and the model in many different ways. But as with anything, you can't always work for free either. Communication with a model or photographer is a big key when doing paid work. Making sure that you are not just handing your money out to someone that really don't care either way. You can tell also..when you have talked to them several times. With everything that I am, I justify my rates and they are very reasonable. They are not over the top, but I have the package to go along with it also. Photographers should be able to pay a model if they are wanting that model because of something they see, or a project that they have. Photographers also should be able to do TFP too, on occasion...it is a benefit. It is just how you choose the ones you TFP and the ones you pay. If your going to pay a model, make sure she is worth it. It may be worth it to shoot her. McKenzie Apr 27 05 02:52 pm Link It's easy to justify high rates ... because we all value ourselves highly. The example I set out above is less hypothetical than one might imagine. Ask some of those relatively fresh-outa-the-box newbees how often they're working and how much they're REALLY taking home and who their clients are. I shot with an absolutely beautiful woman who's since moved out of the country:  Her rates were reasonable and I used her often ... when she wasn't booked elsewhere. She was always working and her OMP profile scrolled for days as a result. Did I mention, she drove a Beemer? uh ... not a 3 body, either. $45/hr prorates in a real world job to $90K a year. OK, so you only want a part time job? Don't book 40 hours a week - book 20 instead and try to struggle through on $45,000 a year. That's not too awfully shabby for a part time job. But that's art photography for ya. The math is probably different in other parts of the game. Personally, I'd much rather have to justify a high income than try to justify high rates. Having high rates only gives you bragging rights. Apr 27 05 03:31 pm Link Posted by Jose- JoseOnline.com: Posted by Mike Panic: I don't know. How can ya balk at a model who wants only $50 an hour. If you are considering hiring her you obviously like her look. If you are paying her than you are probably keeping the images and getting a full release. Experience is a factor sure, but how about look, talent, right place/ right time, etc. I just dont think that's much money at all. Put yourself in their shoes- how would you feel posing in swimwear for a half day and those images could probably end up anywhere. Do you think a few hundred bucks is alot? Now if the model wants $100 or more an hour- she better bring something substantial to the table- and that's not because $100 is alot of money- its just because sooooo many models will work for that rate. WOW! The comments on here are very interesting! Jose, I've read a lot of your comments and I have to agree on a lot of things you've mentioned. I'm a relatively new model myself and have had the fortune of being in some pretty big magazines. Now, in the beginning I think that TFP is good for everyone involved. It allows us to learn our techniques. I think that both the model and photographer need the experience and the pictures for their portfolios. I also think too that both parties should benefit. If the photographer is going to shoot a model so that s/he can try to sell their pictures to a potential client, then yes, the model should benefit as well. She can agree to either A) accept a certain percentage of what the photographer will be paid by the client, or B) be allowed to keep the pictures and use them for her benefit. I recently shot w/ a reputable photographer and and his work ethics are very impressive. He shoots for clients so therefore he'll get paid and he'll allow the model(s) to have all of the pictures so that she can sell them on her personal website. It's a win win situation. And then there are those who split the profits. I'm rambling here, but I couldn't ignore this. It also depends on the type of series too. If a model is going to pose nude, it is her right to ask to be paid because most likely her pics will end up on some paid web-site where the photographer is profiting off her nude images (experienced or inexperienced). Many new girls learn the hard way because they have been duped. No one wants to work for free, but at times it is necessary. It all depends on the situation at hand. Now another issue is this, if there is a major magazine that a photographer works for and they use "no-name" models, then the argument is "Well you're a no-name model and therefore we don't have to pay you, now if you want to become a house-hold name, shoot for our magazine for free and it'll happen." We all know there's no guarantee that it would happen, but most girls will agree to do it. Say they get published, now they have a tear sheet or layout and a fan base and a demand from their subscribers for that model to be published some more. She can now ask for money because she's in demand. Yet, when she arrives again for the next shoot she'll be given some other story and it's why they are paying her so little. It's a rough situation because most of the time the models pay for their own airfare, hotel, make-up, outfits and her time and unfortunately this is an oversight. Everyone is working, everyone is giving up their time, everyone is dishing out money for something so therefore everyone should be compensated some how. If both models and photographers can come to some agreement this wouldn't be such a big issue. It should be fair for all involved. Apr 27 05 04:09 pm Link I tried to find one post that hit the nail, but none did. Model rates are set by use, not by a set fee. What will the images be used for? Where will they appear? For how long may they be used? Etc. For a hobby photographer hiring models, yes $100/hour is insane. For a professional shooting for publication, $100/hour is probably extremely low. Certainly Internet model rates are well below what professional models are being paid through ad and talent agencies. Apr 27 05 05:25 pm Link Posted by Austin Models & Talent Agency: I agree. But I have had a hard time figuring out rates for a long time too. Apr 27 05 09:41 pm Link Look at it this way .. once you break $100 an hour you're competing with call girls who'll pose any which way AND take care of the plumbing ... at least that's the rumor. Apr 27 05 09:46 pm Link Posted by Austin Models & Talent Agency: I didn't say that a few posts back? Apr 27 05 09:52 pm Link I think the advent of the web has created this "new" category of "Internet models" and "Internet photographers"... Funny, I wrote an article about just that thing, and using the same terminology, on my web site. I'm sure it may offend some, but I call it the way I see it and it's all simply based on my own observations and experience...your mileage may vary. Apr 27 05 09:55 pm Link Posted by Joe Kozlowski: I don't get it? I just placed an 11 year old in a print job for Bealls that paid $1000 for about 3 hours work. A little low, but it was her first print assignment so it was all thrills. How was she competing with anything other than professional models? I think actually the statement is in reverse. Ah, the Internet. :-) Apr 28 05 09:38 am Link Posted by Austin Models & Talent Agency: Posted by Joe Kozlowski: I don't get it? I just placed an 11 year old in a print job for Bealls that paid $1000 for about 3 hours work. A little low, but it was her first print assignment so it was all thrills. How was she competing with anything other than professional models? I think actually the statement is in reverse. Ah, the Internet. :-) I'm an art photographer ... like I said in an earlier post ... I'm sure the math works differently in other ends of the photography business ... Apr 28 05 09:43 am Link Sorry! I missed your post - you're correct. Fortunately, a few models here do understand how it works and so are able to negotiate rates that pay their value. Often, though, those that understand this are staying fairly busy being booked. How many models know where their images will end up when they shoot? How many models require the use be specified on the release form? How many models limit that use to 12 or 24 months, unless a buyout (pays more)? How many models obtain a copy of the signed release for their own records? There's a lot to learn online, and often not a lot of real information provided. Apr 28 05 09:47 am Link Ah, okay... gotcha! You had lost me for a bit there but I understand your point now. On the flip side, I can't imagine models working at Internet rates -- but then as a photographer also, I can't imagine paying a model from my pocket either (leave the heavy lifting to the client, I say, LOL). Apr 28 05 09:51 am Link Posted by theda: Yup. I saw that post too, Theda. Don't sniffle. We're paying attention. Posted by Zero Dean: Very cool. I enjoyed that article and I agree with the things you said. In one of my other posts, I mentioned that I have almost a decade of experience as a photographer. And I've been published and blah, blah, blah, but I still feel like a "semiprofessional" instead of a "professional" and I think your article articulates WHY it is that I feel that way. You see, I don't want to be the hobbyist. I don't want to be an "internet photographer" at all. I want to be a REAL getting-paid-to-shoot-for-major-magazines-and-print-ads photographer. I want to be... Hence, no matter how many compliments I get on how great my work is, I still feel like a "wanna-be." Apr 28 05 10:01 am Link |
