Yuriy wrote:
Even without a release a photographer has almost all the rights in the world to do with the work what he/she pleases except directly endorse a product for commercial use.

Just add the word "professional" before the word photographer and you have the single most important piece of advice I have yet to see on MM.

Intensity wrote:
Just giving some options

No, you're fishing...or more appropriately...TROLLing

I'll be happy to burn a CD at the end of the shoot.  Just wait about an hour while I batch convert all the shots to 400 px wide on the long side JPGs and edit out all the flubs.

I have yet to meet a model who's willing to wait around for me to actually burn a CD

Intensity wrote:
What happens then?

A confirmation email is sent.

James Jackson wrote:

No, you're fishing...or more appropriately...TROLLing

I'll be happy to burn a CD at the end of the shoot.  Just wait about an hour while I batch convert all the shots to 400 px wide on the long side JPGs and edit out all the flubs.

I have yet to meet a model who's willing to wait around for me to actually burn a CD

I wouldnt mind waiting an hour I was there all day shooting why would'nt I wait an hour  for my photos.

Intensity wrote:
I wouldnt mind waiting an hour I was there all day shooting why would'nt I wait an hour  for my photos.

Guess you'd have a CD in your hand if you had been shooting with me then.

Yuriy wrote:
But, not signing the release?! Negotiation is what it's all about, but I don't know a single photographer that would leave himself exposed to liability for a TFP model.

SOOOOO many "models" I know are shocked when I ask them to sign the release.  Many have never had a photog ask them to sign anything after a shoot.  Talk about stupid.  Why don't you just post a sign on your forehead that reads "I'm stupid.  Please sue my ass for being stupid."

Intensity wrote:
Taxes from modeling I dont make any money of modeling so I wouldnt have to pay taxes. you only pay taxes when you make money. Modeling for me is a hobbie.I pay taxes on my regular job  because they are giving me a paycheck. Modeling isnt paying me.

Really?  You may want to check your business savvy at the door and check out the IRS website as to what is and is not taxable income because - Although cash doesn't leave your's or the photographer's pocket during a trade, the IRS still wants its cut. The fair market value of any bartered goods or services (as in TFP) must be counted as taxable income. If you and your trading partner agree ahead of time as to the value of the trade the IRS will usually accept that amount as the fair market value.

Please ignore the above if you do not live in the US.

Intensity wrote:
so how much is worth a cd of pictures for me to put them in my taxes

Depends on the photographer, depends on what you can regularily command for a price for modeling.

I usually just agree (in writing) that the value exchanged was a dollar, for tfp.  That usually covers both of us as long as neither of us is famous.

However if I were a famous photographer, that cd of images might be worth a mint just because I took them.  In a case like that it might be worth as much as you've ever earned on a single shoot. $200, $400, $4000, doesn't matter.  That's why there are tax attorneys.

area291 wrote:

The TFP world doesn't need a model release.  If imaging is worthy of commercial re-sale then a model is worthy of payment beyond just a few prints.  Equally, if a model seeks commercial viable portfolio imaging then it should be purchased from a photographer. 

The Internet world has a difficult time understanding such a simple concept of business.  Most of those whining about a model release for TFP will do nothing with the imaging other than claim ownership of something in most cases isn't worth anything.

TFP is not restricted to internet models, get over it.  TFP has been around for as long as there have been photographers and models.

Intensity wrote:
What happens when the model does signed the TFP release  and then never receives the photographs. What do you do then????

Please any answers to that....

BasementStudios wrote:

What happens when the model signs the TFP release and then receives her images in two weeks, what whining do you do then?

Listen first off I'm not whining since I wasn't the one who posted this thread so read through it first and then  speak up. Talking from experince I had a shoot 2 years ago and never got my pics  and I was asking for advice  since I didnt think there was nothing that you could do about that. O.K.

Intensity wrote:
But thanks  for your help because I never knew that I could sue  if I didnt get my pictures. Not like I'm going to who knows the photographer is problably dead or something who knows..

You might want to confirm that with someone who actually KNOWS the law, not some guy posting to a forum, this type of naivity is exactly why models get taken advantage of.

Intensity wrote:
Listen first off I'm not whining since I wasn't the one who posted this thread so read through it first and then  speak up. Talking from experince I had a shoot 2 years ago and never got my pics  and I was asking for advice  since I didnt think there was nothing that you could do about that. O.K.

When I said YOU it wasn't YOU personally it was YOU in general.  I DID read the entire
thread, always do.

As for suing, you still don't know for certain, just because some guy comes in her and says 'you can sue' doesn't mean you actually can, better to contact a lawyer, one that is familiar with photography/modeling/contract law.

Lastly, I would be willing to bet that for every one photographer that stiffs models on their images, their are 5 that follow through with their promise and provide the images.

Intensity wrote:
Listen first off I'm not whining since I wasn't the one who posted this thread so read through it first and then  speak up. Talking from experince I had a shoot 2 years ago and never got my pics  and I was asking for advice  since I didnt think there was nothing that you could do about that. O.K.

Two years is a long time to be waiting for something in return for a TFP/TFCD shoot. I would just chalk it up to experience and move on. The photographer probably didn't even load a film in his  or her camera. That or probably something bad happened to the images...maybe photog's computer crashed and there was no back up and  everything was lost.I would try to forget this incident and move on to better things. What type of shoot was it, just out of curiosity?

BasementStudios wrote:
Lastly, I would be willing to bet that for every one potographer that stiffs models on their images, their are 5 that follow through with their promise and provide the images.

Yeah I guess I got stuck with  that 1 out of every 5. And we are not saying that every photographer is not going to give you the images since I have work  after that with plenty of others and they have come through we are just talking about those certain ones that tend to forget.

StudioMona wrote:
Two years is a long time to be waiting for something in return for a TFP/TFCD shoot. I would just chalk it up to experience and move on. The photographer probably didn't even load a film in his  or her camera. That or probably something bad happened to the images...maybe photog's computer crashed and there was no back up and  everything was lost.I would try to forget this incident and move on to better things. What type of shoot was it, just out of curiosity?

Oh yeah I've moved on   and thought of the images as lost items. but since I saw this thread about that I thought I might  add what happened to me as I said before. i'm not going to do anything about that  since  the photographer is problably lost in space  or somewhere. But I've been moved on and I have done  pleanty of TFP's after that.

Just regular TFP  I was 17 years old. Regular casual and Swimsuit pictures in florida.

Intensity wrote:
Taxes from modeling I dont make any money of modeling so I wouldnt have to pay taxes. you only pay taxes when you make money. Modeling for me is a hobbie.I pay taxes on my regular job  because they are giving me a paycheck. Modeling isnt paying me.

Technically according to the IRS, bartering for services must be claimed as income.  So if you went on say 10 TFP shoots and recieved say 10 Prints from each Photog, you are 'Supposed' to claim the MONETARY VALUE of said service provided by the photographer as INCOME.  Think about it, if everyone bartered instead of paying for services, the government would NEVER make money.  When I shoot a commercial in exchange for say usage of a location, they MUST claim it on their taxes.  I sure as hell claim it on mine! 
I would give you examples, but I pay an old Jewish Accountant a lot of money for this info!

Nothing is untaxable when it comes to Uncle Sam.

Intensity wrote:

Oh yeah I've moved on   and thought of the images as lost items. but since I saw this thread about that I thought I might  add what happened to me as I said before. i'm not going to do anything about that  since  the photographer is problably lost in space  or somewhere. But I've been moved on and I have done  pleanty of TFP's after that.

Just regular TFP  I was 17 years old. Regular casual and Swimsuit pictures in florida.

K, thanks for the info. My advice to you is really check out the photogs in advance and put everything in writing, like what you are getting in exchange for the tfcd/tfp and if you are getting images on cd, specify the image size and resolution etcetera.... god forbid they only give you a 72dpi 600x400 pixels or smaller or worse a thumbnail, that would suck.  and frankly, i wouldn't ask for a cd right after a shoot, that just might mean that the photographer won't even bother retouching or color correcting the digital files. give them a fair amount of time to work on the best images.
all the best to you!

StudioMona wrote:

K, thanks for the info. My advice to you is really check out the photogs in advance and put everything in writing, like what you are getting in exchange for the tfcd/tfp and if you are getting images on cd, specify the image size and resolution etcetera.... god forbid they only give you a 72dpi 600x400 pixels or smaller or worse a thumbnail, that would suck.  and frankly, i wouldn't ask for a cd right after a shoot, that just might mean that the photographer won't even bother retouching or color correcting the digital files. give them a fair amount of time to work on the best images.
all the best to you!

I actually have a copy of the release and everything. I keep everything in folders  for each photographer that I work with

Intensity wrote:
An about emails now  that you guys bring it up. Wasnt there a thread about photographers complaining that they didnt like emails that they like to schedule shoots and  stuff through the phone. What happens then?

Breech of Verbal Contract.

This post is TRIVIAL!  If a Photog doesn't deliver, there is nothing worth doing to make him. If a model doesn't show, there is nothing worth doing to make her. He can always say his hard drive crashed and you get nothing.  That's the problem with our legal system, too many idiots trying to sue for TRIVIAL things. 

If a photog is actually thinking he is going to make money from a TFP/CD shoot, he is but a fool.  If someone actully sees something they like that you shot TFP/CD, all you really have to do is SHOOT IT AGAIN!

Hamza wrote:
Breech of Verbal Contract.

This post is TRIVIAL!  If a Photog doesn't deliver, there is nothing worth doing to make him. If a model doesn't show, there is nothing worth doing to make her. He can always say his hard drive crashed and you get nothing.  That's the problem with our legal system, too many idiots trying to sue for TRIVIAL things. 

If a photog is actually thinking he is going to make money from a TFP/CD shoot, he is but a fool.  If someone actully sees something they like that you shot TFP/CD, all you really have to do is SHOOT IT AGAIN!

Then I was right the first time there's nothing you can do about it. So really a release is useless  unless the photos are being published or something or they are making money of the images right?
Then why are photographers so strict about TFP releases?

Intensity wrote:

I wouldnt mind waiting an hour I was there all day shooting why would'nt I wait an hour  for my photos.

I understand where you're coming from, but speaking for myself, I usually have another shoot afterwards, or require down time from my shoot afterwards. After looking at the model for 2-3 hours, it wouldn't make sense for us to sit around for another hour while I convert your pics.

That's even MORE time, time that I can use at another shoot.

Example #1: I shoot a model on location. I leave my house at 6am, to get started at 7:30am (45 min drive into Chicago). Model shows up, and we shoot for 3 hours average. It's now 10:30am, and I've been up for almost 5 hours on this one shoot. I can VIEW some of the pics with the model, to show her what it looks like, but I'm usually in no position to prepare images and burn them to a CD.

Example #2: I shoot a model in the studio. We shoot for 2 hours, and 9 times out of 10, I have another shoot immediately following. I don't have the time to prepare images and burn them, as I have another shoot in front of me. As I don't have a studio, I'm paying them for time, so I would end up paying them for ANOTHER hour, so that I can get the model her images.

I've never been able to burn CDs from my shoot, and it's just too much for me to do so, especially if I have other shoots/activities that follow.

That's just me, though.

Unless I was being paid to produce images for publication in a newspaper or magazine after shooting a sporting event, etc., I wouldn't have the time nor energy to do anything else with the images within the first few hours of shooting them.

Intensity wrote:

Then I was right the first time there's nothing you can do about it. So really a release is useless  unless the photos are being published or something or they are making money of the images right?
Then why are photographers so strict about TFP releases?

Some photographers are usually strict about ALL releases, as well as contracts. This is done to make sure that the MODEL KNOWS what is going on, rather than having them THINK it's one thing, rather than another.

A release for TFP mainly serves as a friendly reminder to the model. The photographer already KNOWS what he/she can do with the images.

area291 wrote:
The TFP world doesn't need a model release.  If imaging is worthy of commercial re-sale then a model is worthy of payment beyond just a few prints.  Equally, if a model seeks commercial viable portfolio imaging then it should be purchased from a photographer. 

The Internet world has a difficult time understanding such a simple concept of business.  Most of those whining about a model release for TFP will do nothing with the imaging other than claim ownership of something in most cases isn't worth anything.

I'm an artist.  I do gallery & outdoor shows.  I also photograph nude men & women.  Like most artists, I am poor so I do a lot of TFP.  I need a release for a few reasons.  #1, I need to prove models' ages.  #2, if I win awards in shows (which I do) the work can often be placed on the websites or brochures or books from the shows or galleries & the local papers might publish photos of my work.  It is common for galleries to require that photographers be able to provide releases for work in case those situations happen.  Additionally, I might use the work for competitions such as those held by Photo (French or American edition) where I am not looking for a payment for that image but looking for recognition based on my art skills.  Again, i need a release.

SKPhoto wrote:
Has anyone ever tested the legality of email confirmations?  Sort of like having to pay some doctors and dentists now if you don't show for the appointment.

Also, if you are thinking about suing a photographer, may want to consider that his attorney will probably want to know if you've been paying your taxes from modeling.

(Brother-in-law is an attorney, loves cases where items of value trade hands but not money)

I've started running in to models who demand an upfront deposit.  A few photographers as well.
This generally wouldn't apply to TFP tho.