faithb wrote:
I just had a "cute" exchange with a photographer, who contacted me looking for muas to work with him on an ongoing basis.  He wants muas to volunteer their time first, then work for kit fee only, then get paid gigs.  He didn't specify how long the mua would be at each "pay grade."  After looking at his work I determined that I wasn't willing to test with him, and simply offered to send him my rates if things change on his end.

He comes back and says something like since he hasn't seen my work, he can't justify paying me, and he hopes that I understand.  I told him that I understood, and I hoped that he understood that I go by what I see initially (online), and that's how I determine if I'm willing to test or not.  His response, which I guess was supposed to be a "burn" on my work (which I'm completely confident in) was something like "That's how I determine whether I'm willing to pay, lol."

But how again, do you say, you ended up contacting me???  Oh, you saw my work???  OH!  So you saw my work which made you contact me, but you haven't seen my work so you can't pay me?  Makes sense.  I'd rather you just tell me that you're broke and we could go from there.

What do you think?  All opinions welcome, but I would especially like to hear from photographers and makeup artists.

faithb wrote:
I just had a "cute" exchange with a photographer, who contacted me looking for muas to work with him on an ongoing basis.  He wants muas to volunteer their time first, then work for kit fee only, then get paid gigs.  He didn't specify how long the mua would be at each "pay grade."  After looking at his work I determined that I wasn't willing to test with him, and simply offered to send him my rates if things change on his end.

He comes back and says something like since he hasn't seen my work, he can't justify paying me, and he hopes that I understand.  I told him that I understood, and I hoped that he understood that I go by what I see initially (online), and that's how I determine if I'm willing to test or not.  His response, which I guess was supposed to be a "burn" on my work (which I'm completely confident in) was something like "That's how I determine whether I'm willing to pay, lol."

But how again, do you say, you ended up contacting me???  Oh, you saw my work???  OH!  So you saw my work which made you contact me, but you haven't seen my work so you can't pay me?  Makes sense.  I'd rather you just tell me that you're broke and we could go from there.

What do you think?  All opinions welcome, but I would especially like to hear from photographers and makeup artists.

This is a no brainer. The GWC has no money and wants to work with a real artist and styist, he simply cant afford it because he isnt good enough himself to get paid yet.  He hopes that if he can work with real pros his stuff will look better and thus he will get paying gigs and when that happens he will pay you   the problem is that probably won't happen because he is looking for free tfp artists and they really dont have the skills to push his portfolio to the "worthy of being paid" stage so really he's wasteing everyones time.

Mary wrote:
This is a no brainer. The GWC has no money and wants to work with a real artist and styist, he simply cant afford it because he isnt good enough himself to get paid yet.  He hopes that if he can work with real pros his stuff will look better and thus he will get paying gigs and when that happens he will pay you   the problem is that probably won't happen because he is looking for free tfp artists and they really dont have the skills to push his portfolio to the "worthy of being paid" stage so really he's wasteing everyones time.

I agree, because anyone who has been around fashion, photography, styling, (I think) should know when their work is "less desirable," even when comparing it to another craft (such as mua vs. photographer).  You only get better by working with better people, yes.  But my philosoply is this:  You're going to benefit one of my books...my portfolio book or my pocket book!  And he clearly isn't prepared to do either.

Sharon Gutowski wrote:
As a photographer on a budget I struggle with the dilema about muas.  I know you work very hard and deserve to be paid but usually I just don't have it in my budget.  Some people have told me it's not professional but I usually take the honesty approach and say that I don't have the ability to pay.  Sometimes I offer what I can (still not full price) and if the mau will work with I am happy but if not, I certainly understand.

If a make-up artist has training/credentials I would be more willing to hire her without seeing work first.  Isn't that why Make-up schools charge so much money?  I definitely think the offer you got wasn't very good.  I mean, who conducts business that way?  He clearly has the money to pay you and was deciding if it was worth it to him.  You could NEVER hire a plumber or a doctor that way, "let me see how you fix my sink the first time for free, and then if it's good I will call you back and you can fix it next time and I'll cover your expenses.  If I'm still happy after that I will pay you."

Having said all that, what is it that makes you decide to work TFP and who to test with?  I am hopiing to be able to start working with more muas on test shoots but I can't afford to pay them.  Will you do it for guaranteed tear sheets only?  What's your policy on that?

Thanks for sharing the story, I am always interested in perspectives of people working with photographers.

Sharon

I completely understand that, but he needed to be honest about his budget.  I'll decide to work TFP/TFCD if the quality of your work is something I want in my book.  If I know I'm going to come away from a shoot with something good I'll do it.  If I have to wish upon a star that I get one pic out of it, it's not worth it to me.

WZ Studio wrote:
Well, I'm a photographer and the way I see it is that you both need eachother to create for a better image.  So, why not work together on a couple of shoots to see what you can come up with.  Who knows, maybe you can inspire the photographer to create something that you will be glad to put in your portfolio.  If the work is still not satisfying then, simply move on I guess.

I work with a few MUA's on TFCD bases and it's great.  No complains as of yet.

Now, when I get paid for my work, that's when I pay my MUA's but, that's our agreement.  I'm not saying that you should do the same.  Some artists just need a little help sometimes, you know what I mean.

Anyways, I hope this helps a little coming from a photographer.  We are all in this together so why not help eachother out?


Wal

Wal, I understand helping each other out.  But there was nothing about his work that I liked.  I'm too busy to take on charity cases at this point.  TFP/TFCD with a good photographer?  I'll do.  Complete charity cases?  I don't have time for.  And as far as inspiration, you can have a great concept, but a lack of skill.  I see pics all the time with questionable concepts but I can tell the photographer has skills.

I just work with the thought in mind that if I don't want to be a mediocre mua, I don't need to work with mediocre photographers.  Yes, you have to work your way up to the best, but with a lack of skill and no money, he didn't have anything to offer me.

WZ Studio wrote:
I should also add that I have worked with a MUA who just couldn't deliver what I required for the look and that basically messed up my entire shoot.  It's a shame because I lost quite a bit of money on the shoot and there was no one to compensate me for my efforts.

Oh well, you lose some, you win some.


Wal

I understand that, just like muas go through the same with photographers.

Doug Swinskey wrote:
i'll always pay a kit fee the first time..then you get hired or you dont after that....

That's completely fair.  But not "You have to work for free for a while, then for a kit fee for a while, then you get paid."  Ha!

WZ Studio wrote:
In that case I don't really blame you, that's tottaly understandable.

It's that whole mentality; in order to be the best, one should work with the best.



Wal

I agree.  Do you agree that to do that it sometimes takes an investment, which in a lot of cases is $$$?  I've put plenty of that out.

faithb wrote:
That's completely fair.  But not "You have to work for free for a while, then for a kit fee for a while, then you get paid."  Ha!

the photgrapher is probably a nationally known, in demand photographer that feels he would benefit your book...otherwise he's just an ass...

personally i can tell after the first look if your going to be hired...pics dont count, i need to see the work in person..my time is valuable and your time is valuable..i will sometimes test no-fee..but thats because the client has great potential...

WZ Studio wrote:
If it makes you feel any better, I would gladly hire you.  Well, actually, I would ask you if you wouldn't mind working with me on TFCD bases first, hehe.

I think your work is great!

Cheers,

Wal

LOL, thanks, and I'd say yes!

I agree.  Do you agree that to do that it sometimes takes an investment, which in a lot of cases is $$$?  I've put plenty of that out.

Believe me, I invested a lot of money into my studio as well.  Probably a lot more then most MUA's can say but hey, that's what I love to do so, that's fine I suppose.

faithb wrote:

LOL, thanks, and I'd say yes!

It's too bad you live so far away huh? lol


Wal

Doug Swinskey wrote:

the photgrapher is probably a nationally known, in demand photographer that feels he would benefit your book...otherwise he's just an ass...

personally i can tell after the first look if your going to be hired...pics dont count, i need to see the work in person..my time is valuable and your time is valuable..i will sometimes test no-fee..but thats because the client has great potential...

I'm pretty sure it's #2 (to your first statement).  Pics have to count for at least a little...otherwise, why was I contacted??  I understand seeing the work on an initial shoot live and in person, but don't approach me will a less than stellar portfolio with old school, marble gray sheet backdrops and tell me "I want you to work for free until I'm ready to pay you."  Are you serious???

DAN DOYLE STUDIO wrote:
It should always be made clear what ones intention is.....
i book makeup people in a number of capacities daily.....
__________________________________________________
(1) a full on paid day rate for my commercial clients.....
(billed to and paid by the client net 30)
__________________________________________________
(2) a paid model portfolio session
(paid at time of shoot by model/parents)
to both me and the makeup person
__________________________________________________
(3) a wild and crazy fun day of testing for my own promotion.
***not paid by me ever!!!
(pre agreed to makeup rate is paid by the model directly to the makeup person that day)
__________________________________________________
(4) self promotional test day ....full on trade by all parties.....
no $$$ exchanges hands by anyone.....
all of this SHOULD be made very clear to all concerned before shoot day is even booked......
__________________________________________________
nothing is worse than disrupting a shoot about money issues.....
good luck out there all you amazing makeup/hair people!!!!
DAN

And you already know I want to work with you...I just have to get up there!

WZ Studio wrote:
It's too bad you live so far away huh? lol
Wal

Maybe one day, you never know!