Posted by Classichorror: 
Uh,.......shouldn't that be $960 ?

- CH

Heh, I caught that and corrected it in my original post.

Posted by urban prospect: 
HAHA  well they can shoot with me and get a better wardrobe for their trip to your top o tthe line shoot

I am a ghetto girl with camera  I pay in wardrobe

Ghetto girls with camera has friends with camera who wants to learn to shoot as good as ghetto girl with camera right? Be a little enterprising and strike up a bargain with your models. So that, for every referral you send their way, they give you a dollar and the models get their hourly rate. You tell your friends that you know of a model who is willing to pose for them at a mininum of $20, $30, or $40 an hour. Shoot, even if it's at $20 a hour?...look at this:

The Situation
Project = 1 each, GWC/Student offering $20 an hour
Duration = 3 hours

Math formula...
In English: Piggy bank = (Project * Duration)
Technical: Piggy bank = (20 * 3)
Result: Piggy bank = $60

Now, imagine if you did 2 shoots a week for an entire month at the same rate and duration!

Math formula...
In Engish: 2 * (Project * Duration) /* Two shoots a week!
Technical: Piggy Bank = (2 * (20 * 3))
Result: Piggy Bank = $120

Now, imagine if you did this for four weeks!

Math formula...
In English: 4 * (Project * Duration)
Technical: Piggy Bank = (4 * (2 * (20 * 3)))
Result: Piggy Bank = $480

That's $480!

So, quit being un-enterprising. Help out those models by referring your GWCs/Students friends, which turns out helping you and eventually, she'll be able to fly out to Antioch, California and shoot TFP with me!

...hee hee hee

Posted by Shayuma: 
Most people should take your advice Joe. I will be too, very soon!

Thank you Shayuma. If people do, then they should feel obligated to come out to Antioch, California at least once to do a TFP shoot with me.

...hee hee hee

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 

Posted by Shayuma: 
Most people should take your advice Joe. I will be too, very soon!

Thank you Shayuma. If people do, then they should feel obligated to come out to Antioch, California at least once to do a TFP shoot with me.

...hee hee hee

Joe, a question: Since I do not have any hard copy prints of my work should I just go into the photography school empty handed, or should I have something available to show them? Let me know so I can get the ball moving. I certainly need the practice as much as the next person.

Posted by urban prospect: 
I am being enterprising  I pay them in wardrobe I'm a ghetto ass I never learned math 

Lol. Okay, that's cool. But, think about it though. What if you could get a dollar for each referral you sent to a model? Using my example before, where you get a dollar for each referral, in my example above, that would be a total of eight referrals, you'd have gotten back a whopping $8.00!

That's enough to pay for two Happy Meals at McDonald's! *grin*

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 


Now, imagine if you did this for four weeks!

shouldn't that be four months?

Posted by Shayuma: 

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 

Posted by Shayuma: 
Most people should take your advice Joe. I will be too, very soon!

Thank you Shayuma. If people do, then they should feel obligated to come out to Antioch, California at least once to do a TFP shoot with me.

...hee hee hee

Joe, a question: Since I do not have any hard copy prints of my work should I just go into the photography school empty handed, or should I have something available to show them? Let me know so I can get the ball moving. I certainly need the practice as much as the next person.

Good question, but let me hit you on the head with my nerf cluestick anyway. *grin* ..j/k... Every college has their bulletin board. You don't need prints. All you need is a flyer that tells everyone you're a model for hire. Or, you can hand the flyer to the Instructors and they can pass it along to their students. Heck, you never know, they might even refer you to their colleague so you can do modeling for their painting students.

Posted by Gary L.: 

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 


Now, imagine if you did this for four weeks!

shouldn't that be four months?

*prepare to hit self with nerf cluestick*

Hmm, lessee...

Piggy Bank = (4 * (2 * ($20 * 3)))

Piggy Bank =
4 weeks in a month multiplied by
2 shoots a week multiplied by
$20 multiplied by 3 hours

$20 * 3 = $60
* 2 = $120
* 4 = $480

Nope. I'm correct.

* hits Gary on the head with the nerf cluestick for making me almost hit self on the head with nerf cluestick *

I'm ghetto too. Slept a few times in math class. Heh.

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 

Posted by Gary L.: 

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 


Now, imagine if you did this for four weeks!

shouldn't that be four months?

*prepare to hit self with nerf cluestick*

Hmm, lessee...

Piggy Bank = (4 * (2 * ($20 * 3)))

Piggy Bank =
4 weeks in a month multiplied by
2 shoots a week multiplied by
$20 multiplied by 3 hours

$20 * 3 = $60
* 2 = $120
* 4 = $480

Nope. I'm correct.

* hits Gary on the head with the nerf cluestick for making me almost hit self on the head with nerf cluestick *

I'm ghetto too. Slept a few times in math class. Heh.

I was talking about your original post. you made a typo, go over very carefully.  You said "four weeks" instead of "four month".  I know it's been years since i've seen complex math like this.  But at least i still remember some basic math skills after wasting 5 years in college to get a useless degree in Math and Physics.

there is another problem with your logic.  I would pay models $20/hr, maybe even $40/hr (since very few models are doing TFP anymore).  But I'm not going to pay $75-$200/hr rates that 99% of these amatuer models ask for.  I'm always beating myself over the head, wondering why a model would put up some camera phone images or some vacation snap shot, and only request "pay only" or "commercial only". 

enough about that.  What you say does makes sense.

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 
Help out those GWCs/Students, which turns out helping you and eventually, you'll be able to fly out to Antioch, California and shoot TFP with me!

YEAH!!
Thanks for putting such a good plug in for me, Joe!! You're a champ!!

Girls? The line forms to the left!!!

GWC!

Posted by Gary L.: 
I was talking about your original post. you made a typo, go over very carefully.

Gary you're right!

* hits self TWICE on the head with nerf cluestick. Oops! Where'd this 2x4 come from??? *

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 
* hits self TWICE on the head with nerf cluestick. Oops! Where'd this 2x4 come from??? *

can't you get brain damage from doing that? jk

Posted by George Butler: 
There are GWC's or even students paying for models?

Sure there are. In, or around 1995, I was one of them. A GWC. I was able to get TFP models for fashion and casual shoots, no problem. But, it was harder than heck to get a model to shoot nudes and at that time, I felt I had to have nudes in my portfolio in order to have the broad experience I wanted. I could never get enough nerve to approach a woman to do nude modeling for me. I asked myself how'd I react to something like that and I decided, no way. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to pay someone for this kind of service. Hire a model.

I tried an agency in S.F. first and I got a solid "NO". They'd only allow it if I had numerous references from big names. Most, didn't allow it at all. I understood. So, I put an Ad in the paper. Now, this only works for Semi or Pro Photographers with solid images. Not for GWCs. The first thing a model asks is what's your level of experience. If you tell them you're an Amateur, they don't pursue it. The Ad in the paper clearly did not work for me.

Finally, I found a Nude Photographer who scrutinized my intentions and after determining I'm no serial killer, referred me to some models he's worked with in the past. These were experienced nude models who understood I had a lot to learn and I compensated them really well in exchange for their time and skills.

I learned a lot then and I'm thankful for it. The mistakes I made, which I learned from greatly, helped me immensely to be who I am as a Photographer today.  The fun part of it is, one never stops learning.

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 

Posted by George Butler: 
There are GWC's or even students paying for models?

Sure there are. In, or around 1995, I was one of them. A GWC. I was able to get TFP models for fashion and casual shoots, no problem. But, it was harder than heck to get a model to shoot nudes and at that time, I felt I had to have nudes in my portfolio in order to have the broad experience I wanted. I could never get enough nerve to approach a woman to do nude modeling for me. I asked myself how'd I react to something like that and I decided, no way. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to pay someone for this kind of service. Hire a model.

I tried an agency in S.F. first and I got a solid "NO". They'd only allow it if I had numerous references from big names. Most, didn't allow it at all. I understood. So, I put an Ad in the paper. Now, this only works for Semi or Pro Photographers with solid images. Not for GWCs. The first thing a model asks is what's your level of experience. If you tell them you're an Amateur, they don't pursue it. The Ad in the paper clearly did not work for me.

Finally, I found a Nude Photographer who scrutinized my intentions and after determining I'm no serial killer, referred me to some models he's worked with in the past. These were experienced nude models who understood I had a lot to learn and I compensated them really well in exchange for their time and skills.

I learned a lot then and I'm thankful for it. The mistakes I made, which I learned from greatly, helped me immensely to be who I am as a Photographer today.  The fun part of it is, one never stops learning.

Besides developing my photography and presentation skills, one very important thing I got from doing nude photography, was developing the proper language for directing a model's posing style. This was very, very key for me. Contrary to popular belief among the fellas who think of nude photography as some kind of cheap thrill, the nude models I've worked with are very proper women and they have their pride and dignity. If one makes the mistake of thinking of them as "cheap" and use the wrong language or body language, believe me, one will not go far in this genre.

Posted by DRowan:And thus the concept of the "photographer as client" is further promoted...

doug ...that battle is lost...

but have faith that in the landbased world..agency models know who the clients are..(the deep pocketed apparel manufactures and ad marketing people)...they know they need to get with professionals in the commercial world..
thats why you dont see hardly any agency rep'd models online...they know where the real commercial is...

Posted by DRowan: 
And thus the concept of the "photographer as client" is further promoted...

I understand where you're coming from. Photography is your bread and butter. Don't forget that many of the GWCs/Students are people who set high marks for themselves and don't feel comfortable calling themselves Photographers until they've reached a point where practice has paid off. When they do, they're at another level and probably reaching for yours and at the agency level.

The point is, the world's more than big enough to support this activity on a minor scale as compared to the other parts of the industry.

A model can take the same approach I exampled out and use it to save enough money to pay you to shoot her on a set with a stylist and MUA. Think about it from that perspective?

Posted by Doug Swinskey: 

Posted by DRowan:And thus the concept of the "photographer as client" is further promoted...

doug ...that battle is lost...

but have faith that in the landbased world..agency models know who the clients are..(the deep pocketed apparel manufactures and ad marketing people)...they know they need to get with professionals in the commercial world..
thats why you dont see hardly any agency rep'd models online...they know where the real commercial is...

Sure, but you're forgetting about the models who don't make it to the commercial level who still desire to be a part of the industry. Where do you think the various sub-cultures spun off from? Also, you're leaning too heavily in the fact an agency rep'ed model will continue to enjoy working along those lines. Most of them will likely come across the work of an up-n-coming Artist who is not affiliated with an agency and doing something completely different. Even Agency models will get bored at some point in their career with their books and may want something fresh and off the wall. I don't have numbers to support this theory, only my confidence in fickle human nature.

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 

Posted by DRowan: 
And thus the concept of the "photographer as client" is further promoted...

I understand where you're coming from. Photography is your bread and butter. Don't forget that many of the GWCs/Students are people who set high marks for themselves and don't feel comfortable calling themselves Photographers until they've reached a point where practice has paid off. When they do, they're at another level and probably reaching for yours and at the agency level.

The point is, the world's more than big enough to support this activity on a minor scale as compared to the other parts of the industry.

A model can take the same approach I exampled out and use it to save enough money to pay you to shoot her on a set with a stylist and MUA. Think about it from that perspective?

Actually...I could be considered a GWC (because I don't shoot for a living) who sets very high standards for myself. While I continually strive to improve, I shoot totally as an artistic outlet and don't have a budget available to pay models.

Posted by DRowan: 
And thus the concept of the "photographer as client" is further promoted...

Kvetch all you like. The market exists.

Posted by theda: 

Posted by DRowan: 
And thus the concept of the "photographer as client" is further promoted...

Kvetch all you like. The market exists.

True,  not my market but how would OMP exist without it?

Posted by DRowan: 

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 

Posted by DRowan: 
And thus the concept of the "photographer as client" is further promoted...

I understand where you're coming from. Photography is your bread and butter. Don't forget that many of the GWCs/Students are people who set high marks for themselves and don't feel comfortable calling themselves Photographers until they've reached a point where practice has paid off. When they do, they're at another level and probably reaching for yours and at the agency level.

The point is, the world's more than big enough to support this activity on a minor scale as compared to the other parts of the industry.

A model can take the same approach I exampled out and use it to save enough money to pay you to shoot her on a set with a stylist and MUA. Think about it from that perspective?

Actually...I could be considered a GWC (because I don't shoot for a living) who sets very high marks for myself. While I continually strive to improve & shoot totally as an artistic outlet, I don't have a budget available to pay models.

I see, I see. And, I understand now, with your "no budget" why you had that initial response. Rowan, after looking at your port, I can honestly tell you that you have nothing to worry about. I see you've reached a certain level in your photography and presentation and see that you're striving to reach higher levels that many out there are still trying to achieve. Furthermore, new models are coming out every day at an alarming rate more than photographers. There will be those who will approach you for TFP, because your work will assist in strengthening their portfolio. You just gotta have that confidence and with it comes an awareness that no matter how the sun rises and the moon falls, you won't lack for the TFP you need. If you don't think of it that way, your photographic endeavors will suffer, it will show in your work and indeed, the requests to do TFP with you will decline and then, you'll blame me for pushing that concept.

But let's say for the sake of argument that it did dry up for you. You know what would happen? You would force to motivate yourself to tap into markets you never thought of pursuing. Some that you thought were unreachable even. I'm serious! What happens to everyone that's suffered a drought in their lives caused either by some natural phenomenon, or by another person?

Your sense for survival will kick in and you'll do what it takes to find and get what you need. And, it just may be the next level you needed to get to as a Photographer.

Posted by BarryH: 
To me, GWC implies someone WITHOUT high standards, just a camera and maybe some extra cash.

Man, I wish I had some cash!!! Then I would be able to hire Angelina Jolie to pose for me, instead of trying to talk all the hotttttttt chicks on MM into posing TFP for me!

I'm getting better at photography really fast, though, so don't laugh at me. In another year or 2 I'll be shooting nudes of hollywood starlets and you'll be waxing my Ferrari or mowing my lawn!

GWC!

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 
Sure there are. In, or around 1995, I was one of them. A GWC. I was able to get TFP models for fashion and casual shoots, no problem.

I was too! And I'm not ashamed to admit it. What some people call a "GWC" I call a "beginner."  I'll also openly admit that what got me into photography was the desire to see women without their kit on. What's wrong with that? They look great that way! I always wanted to try to record the lovely play of light and curves that I saw in countless topless joints during my adolescence.

So when I started with photography it was with a clear purpose - nay - a mission! But I couldn't get models either! I did my first nude shoot of a bored "lady of the evening" who was happy to just pose instead of - you know. Then I went to a local art school and found out that the nude models for the life drawing class got paid (basically) chump change. So I introduced myself to one and offered her chump change, too. And my photographic career was launched.

Oh, sure, I did a brief 4 year interlude taking classes in B&W theory - Zone System and all that - and shooting still lifes and learning lighting. And I've been working on the lighting and composition another 12 years, now... My, how time flies.

I think that I consider myself a kind of "Doctor Jeckyll & GWC" photographer. I have a great deal of sympathy for both aspects of the craft, and extremely little patience for the poseurs who aren't up-front about their agendas, or who act like chablis-swilling prancing-about art-photographers oh-so-professional - yet still shoot 99% of their frames of beautiful women.

Keep it real, and thanks for sharing Joe!
mjr.