KARLOS MATTHEWS wrote:
you hired a net model what did you expect?

Ugh.  This one had experience doing this sort of thing with references.  I was a little surprised under the circumstances.
Oh well.

SLE Photography wrote:
This was a girl who told me she was experienced at doing these sort of promotions (I've done a lot of them) and that she was a professional.
ARGH.

And, just like any job interview, you did follow-up on her references right????

I simply can not imagine hiring a model from omp or MM for an event or a client paid shoot unless I have 1) worked with him/her before and know him/her well or 2) have checked ALL references.  Period.

So, if she told you she was experienced, did you check her references?  If you were hiring her for a job at your company (salesperson, clerk, admin assistant, whatever), would you hire her without talking to her references?  Why is the photography business any different?

Dave

KARLOS MATTHEWS wrote:
you hired a net model what did you expect?

What ??? I thought that's what we all were - net photographers, net models, net make up artists, net-whatever.

I am a real man, but I also have a profile on a website, for women to date me. Does that make me simply a 'net man" and NOT a man who actually exists ?

MurphyMurphy Studios wrote:
And, just like any job interview, you did follow-up on her references right????

I simply can not imagine hiring a model from OMP or MM for an event or a client paid shoot unless I have 1) worked with him/her before and know him/her well or 2) have checked ALL references.  Period.

So, if she told you she was experienced, did you check her references?  If you were hiring her for a job at your company (salesperson, clerk, admin assistant, whatever), would you hire her without talking to her references?  Why is the photography business any different?

Dave

Yes, as a matter of fact I did check references.
And they didn't get paid till the event was over (I've learned that from issues with past events) so she walked out on her paycheck too.

KARLOS MATTHEWS wrote:
you hired a net model what did you expect?

Hey! I resent that. I happen to be very professional..ask anyone I've worked with.

Carina

KARLOS MATTHEWS wrote:
you hired a net model what did you expect?

I beg to differ on that comment.  Not all net models are flakes.  There are models in OMP, MM what have you that are out there busting their ass and working very hard to get to places that they want to be.  There are models on the net that not only do work through the net but also in real life.  There is a difference.  The goals...the accomplishments....what end result are they wanting to get out of modeling.  Of course, stories like this don't help the models out there who are in it for the right reasons and really have goals to acquire.  I have NEVER once not shown up to a job and flaked out.  I have ALWAYS kept all communication lines open at all times and if there was a shoot or event that I couldn't make, it was taken care of in advance.  I maintain good relationships with the people I work with....that is important to me.  Maybe it makes me different...who knows.  But that is who I am.  There are models that need to learn how to communicate better and there are photographers that need to learn how to communicate better.  In the end, the communication is the key factor.  If you don't take the time in learning who you will be working with....you can only assume what may or may not happen.  I know that time isn't always a luxury....but I am sure there are things that stand out in one's work that would help you make decisions about the people you hire.

xoxoxoxoxo
McKenzie

John Jebbia wrote:
I think it's time we all re-evaluate who we will hire for the important jobs. I am in the process of re-vamping my selection criteria as well. As the days go on, it just seems that all of the petty bullshit gets worse and worse. This model not only lost out on a paid gig, but at the same time made you look incompetent to your client. From now on, I would only offer important jobs to models you have worked with before who you know will act professionally. I'm seriously considering doing the same thing. I sympathize with you. I'm going through the same headaches myself.

never a truer word spoken, and excellent timely advice.

KARLOS MATTHEWS wrote:
OK round 2

I would never and I repeat never hire a net model that I have not personally work with for any paying gigs, period. Every model says they are prompt, shows up 15 min early, good attitude whatever. When a model doesn't show the photographer is left looking very stupid. The client looses money and he won't be happy about that. As a net model you can flake on photographer whenever you like, there are 30 more photographers to take his/her place. As a land base agency they can't afford to have models flake, photographers will hire models from the next agency. Which is why I alway say if your a net model looking for paid work get an agent! A photoshoot cost too much money to have ruin by a flaky model, if its from a land based agency then you can atleast call the agency and have the model replaced. The worst that may happen would be a photographer filing a lawsuit aganst the agency for the lost of money and damages caused. Reputation is everything in the real world but it's not in the internet world.

I agree on the never hiring a model that you have not personally worked with or maybe even communicated with on a regular basis.  Again, that is your decision.  But for the hundreds of people out there hiring models everyday...whether it be through agencies or online.....there are good models out there that are not like that.  Sure...every model can say that are angels....well, check their references...check their history.  Mine is up on my site for the whole public to see.  I have nothing to hide.  Then again...there are photographers out there as well who would say they are complete angels as well...and they aren't. 

Agencies and agents....  There are LOTS of not so good agencies out there and who actually and yes...I will say this....rape the model or the photographer when it comes to getting their share.  They will charge people ridiculous amounts of money.  There are some good agencies out there as well....not all are bad.  Agents...same thing.  So no matter what....whether it be agents, agencies, models...or photographers.  The one thing keeps coming back.  Communication and research.  How hard can that be?  You don't have to be an agency model to be a good model.  Yes...although I am with a few non-exclusive agencies I plan to move out of state from where I am because the agencies around me mostly do promotions.  To me...yes good public relations but that is not what I want to do either all the time or what I want to accomplish from modeling. 

And as far as a modeling not showing up and the photographer looking stupid...I agree...it's true!  It's the same way when a model books a photographer and the photographer flakes out on them and they had put their whole schedule aside for that photographer.  People can point fingers all they want and blame.  There are good and bad in everything in this industry from agencies and on down the line.  And...reputation is something in the real and internet world.  It's work either way....  Now...it all depends on who you correspond to and what kind of work ethic they have and how professional they are.  Do they get the job done?  If there is nothing to show that they can get the job done...why bother. 

And......if this is how you feel about internet and internet models.....then why are you even here? 

xoxoxoxoxo
McKenzie

KARLOS MATTHEWS wrote:
Mckenzie I see your point I had many many models flake on me and they didn't break a sweat.
All I am saying is that land based agencies are more reliable that's all. If a net model flakes she may or may not care she won't loose anything either way. As far as why I use sites like MM and OMP because I am far from perfect so I do TFP shoots to better myself. I never join sites like this to find work as many models do. Real work real jobs I call agencies.

Thank you.....

I can't help what models you have hired or who you have had to TFP's with.  I don't know what kind of communication you had with them...or even what kind of moral or work ethic they even had.  All I can say...is that there are bad apples in everything.  Which in turn makes it harder for people out there like me.

Some land base agencies yes...are more reliable.  Again, it's not always the case.  I am sure though that you have found work using these sites.  Either way, I wish you the best in all your endeavors....  Learn from the mistakes that have happened....and don't hold something against the next model because the previous one screwed up.  Everyone is entitled to a fair chance....just be picky.  I think having higher standards and being somewhat picky along with communication goes a long way.  I hope that everything works out for you and the jobs that you do.  Best of luck.

xoxoxo
McKenzie

McKenzie wrote:

I agree on the never hiring a model that you have not personally worked with or maybe even communicated with on a regular basis.  Again, that is your decision.  But for the hundreds of people out there hiring models everyday...whether it be through agencies or online.....there are good models out there that are not like that.  Sure...every model can say that are angels....well, check their references...check their history.  Mine is up on my site for the whole public to see.  I have nothing to hide.  Then again...there are photographers out there as well who would say they are complete angels as well...and they aren't. 

Agencies and agents....  There are LOTS of not so good agencies out there and who actually and yes...I will say this....rape the model or the photographer when it comes to getting their share.  They will charge people ridiculous amounts of money.  There are some good agencies out there as well....not all are bad.  Agents...same thing.  So no matter what....whether it be agents, agencies, models...or photographers.  The one thing keeps coming back.  Communication and research.  How hard can that be?  You don't have to be an agency model to be a good model.  Yes...although I am with a few non-exclusive agencies I plan to move out of state from where I am because the agencies around me mostly do promotions.  To me...yes good public relations but that is not what I want to do either all the time or what I want to accomplish from modeling. 

And as far as a modeling not showing up and the photographer looking stupid...I agree...it's true!  It's the same way when a model books a photographer and the photographer flakes out on them and they had put their whole schedule aside for that photographer.  People can point fingers all they want and blame.  There are good and bad in everything in this industry from agencies and on down the line.  And...reputation is something in the real and internet world.  It's work either way....  Now...it all depends on who you correspond to and what kind of work ethic they have and how professional they are.  Do they get the job done?  If there is nothing to show that they can get the job done...why bother. 

And......if this is how you feel about internet and internet models.....then why are you even here? 

xoxoxoxoxo
McKenzie

Bravo McKenzie - You are one of the reasons I would not hire an agency model. I love the collaborate with newer models as well as the seasoned ones.

UnoMundo Photography wrote:
we told you, we told you.

the BF always causes girls to lose money and appointmants.

sorry, man , but we have sob BF stories coming out of our butts.

well I have my own GF story that is giving me a migraine! sorry nother rant.

I have a list of "never call again". get one!

Oh, she goes on the "never call" list.  She didn't have anything in her profile about an escort, and in 3 weeks of e-mail exchanges hammering out all the details there was never any mention of an escort.  I've been booking promo liquor event models for some time & I've had other incidents where I've had to kick one out or where one has no-showed (hence why they get paid AFTER the event, as there have been a few times when one's had to be removed from the event part way thru), but this i the FIRST time I've ever had one show up with a boyfriend/escort.
Ugh.

John Jebbia wrote:
I think it's time we all re-evaluate who we will hire for the important jobs. I am in the process of re-vamping my selection criteria as well. As the days go on, it just seems that all of the petty bullshit gets worse and worse. This model not only lost out on a paid gig, but at the same time made you look incompetent to your client. From now on, I would only offer important jobs to models you have worked with before who you know will act professionally. I'm seriously considering doing the same thing. I sympathize with you. I'm going through the same headaches myself.

I usually try to work with people I know, due to the aofrementioned issues.  in this case, the event was outside of the markets I normally work in, so the agencies I book thru and the models I normally work with weren't available as it was some distance away.  I asked around & the closest booking agency was an hour from the venue & they had no one available.  The larger companies that can afford $$$ per hour plus expenses (we were paying reasonably, but were on a smaller budget) have people on retainer for that, but between budget and this being a new company we didn't have those resources.  That's why I went thru online services to look for people.
On the bright side, the model who DID work out did a VERY good job & asked to work with us in the future, so I have at least one person I can work with the next time we do an event there.

KARLOS MATTHEWS wrote:
OK round 2

  I would never and I repeat never hire a net model that I have not personally work with for any paying gigs, period. Every model says they are prompt, shows up 15 min early, good attitude whatever. When a model doesn't show the photographer is left looking very stupid. The client looses money and he won't be happy about that. As a net model you can flake on photographer whenever you like, there are 30 more photographers to take his/her place. As a land base agency they can't afford to have models flake, photographers will hire models from the next agency. Which is why I alway say if your a net model looking for paid work get an agent! A photoshoot cost too much money to have ruin by a flaky model, if its from a land based agency then you can atleast call the agency and have the model replaced. The worst that may happen would be a photographer filing a lawsuit aganst the agency for the lost of money and damages caused.
  If a "net" model belongs to an agency good I'll go through his/her agency then simple as that. Reputation is everything in the real world but it's not in the internet world.

ding ding

As noted in the post I maade a moment ago, and in my original, this was for a promo event & not a shoot and there was no booking agency in the market where I was staging the event to handle this, so I was tight on options.
I've also had agency girls show up for events that I've had to throw out, and at that point it's too late to replace them.
So there's always the potential for problems.
This one just caught me off gaurd, as it's never come up in a long time of doing this sort of gig.

Iridal Loveland wrote:
should have called me and my girls...   

You're  BIT too far from the event venue 

phoenixsansfyr wrote:
Ouch, I'm sorry that that happened.

It's funny how models go and date really really strict, conservative people who probably secretly think that all models are skanks, even if they're not doing nudes or anything of that sort.  And then, lo and behold, the SO has a problem with what the model is doing.

*shakes head*

What bogles me in this case, as mentioned, is that it's not like this was for a photo shoot in some out of the way place or a sleazy club somewhere, this was in a well known established restaurant in the middle of the downtown area with security at the door, police check ins, etc etc and plenty of people around.  Plus she knew all the details of the event well in advance & the BF wasn't mentioned until after she showed up.  I did check & she has worked previous liquor promo events.  I've been doing them for 8+ years and this is the first time I've ever had a girl showo up with an escort who expected to be able to attend.  That's why I was ticked enough to rant, it caught me off gaurd.

SLE Photography wrote:
As noted in the post I maade a moment ago, and in my original, this was for a promo event & not a shoot and there was no booking agency in the market where I was staging the event to handle this, so I was tight on options.
I've also had agency girls show up for events that I've had to throw out, and at that point it's too late to replace them.
So there's always the potential for problems.
This one just caught me off gaurd, as it's never come up in a long time of doing this sort of gig.

cool some agencies have girls that do promos. I just speaking my mind that's all. If I am responsible for talent showing up guess what I am going through an agency and if one decides to flake, well the agency doesn't get paid even if the other girls show up and does a great job. They can pay the reliable model out of their own funds. I write checks ( net 15 ) I don't pay cash. They can considere it a freebie and fire the flakey models on staff. Now with that said that's why I say agencies can't afford flakes which is the reason to choose agency girls over net models. That's all I am saying nothing more

SLE Photography wrote:
As noted in the post I maade a moment ago, and in my original, this was for a promo event & not a shoot and there was no booking agency in the market where I was staging the event to handle this, so I was tight on options.
I've also had agency girls show up for events that I've had to throw out, and at that point it's too late to replace them.
So there's always the potential for problems.
This one just caught me off gaurd, as it's never come up in a long time of doing this sort of gig.

KARLOS MATTHEWS wrote:
cool some agencies have girls that do promos. I just speaking my mind that's all. If I am responsible for talent showing up guess what I am going through an agency and if one decides to flake, well the agency doesn't get paid even if the other girls show up and does a great job. They can pay the reliable model out of their own funds. I write checks ( net 15 ) I don't pay cash. They can considere it a freebie and fire the flakey models on staff. Now with that said that's why I say agencies can't afford flakes which is the reason to choose agency girls over net models. That's all I am saying nothing more

I'm not disagreeing.  Like I said, in my regular (larger) markets I have agencies I work with.  This was my first time in this market (we're doing a statewide rollout in zones) for this product & it was a smaller community without a nearby agency.
Unfortunately you have to deal with this in smaller markets when on tight budgets.  This gives me a great argument to take to the import company next time we discuss budgets for their projects tho!  (I asked for more than they provided)

Bodyartist wrote:
Have a no escort rule, and stick to it.

Escorts are a HUGE red/black flag, whether anyone wants to agree or not.  It's a sign of trouble on the horizon, and here is a prime example.  The "Do I pay for an airplane ticket for the escort" was another that had me both laughing and getting real angry that photographers even *entertain* this BS.

I don't shoot with escorts.
I don't use models for mission critical work unless I *KNOW* they will perform.
I don't use models for paid work (any more) unless they've worked with me TFP at least once, preferably more, so I know they are "worth" it.

Models see this from a different POV, but as the one writing checks, and who's reputation is on the line booking and using models, *YOU* (I) need to set the rules then stick by them. 

If you deviate, you'll get burned.   No good deed goes unpunished, etc.

You learned a lesson, I hope others learn the *right* lesson as well.

BTW:  For something like this, get the contract signed ahead of time, for what the models need to do.  If they flake on you, sue them for breach of contract.  Don't let them get away with this.  This sort of thing you should not depend on their word alone.  Anyone who won't/can't sign, find a replacement. 

It's *NOT* simply "business as usual."  To be a professional, and to be considered a professional, you need to ACT professional. 

These girls ruin it for everyone, since you'll be less likely to "trust" the models from now on, this affects other "models" who feel they are professional and should be trusted, etc.  It's a ripple effect, and in this on-line pond, it's becoming pretty choppy waters.

Scott
aka Bodyartist