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The "Internet Modeling" Model
Okay I'm a little confused. I'm been a photographer for a while now, I live in New York, I've got a feel more the market,.. I more or less understand how being being a photographer here "works". My Question is why doesn't the internet seem to understand? Every fashion/modeling/photography site I've seen seems to be.. for lack of a better word built wrong. Its as if there are all built on this false premise, this imagined world that is eerily devoid of clients. These sites imagine a world where photographers hire models, and models hire photographers inside a sealed loop. I'm not saying that there isn't paid testing, and personal projects, but this in a money sense is a small possible part of the industry. Where are the art directors, the creative directors, curators, designers? Where are all the people who's opinions matters?(not because they are wiser, or know more, but because they can spend large a amounts of other people's money) Isn't that the world that everyone posting wants to be in? Networking is all well and good, but I think maybe we should be changing, or redesigning these sites to break the pyramid scheme of photographers/models paying models/photographers so your portfolio is good so you can charge photographers/models. We need sites to break this cycle, this alpaca farming scheme of modeling portfolios. I'm not saying I have an/the answers but it seems to be that there are enough wannabes(and I mean that in the best sense of the word, maybe I should have said aspiring) to become their own market. In the internet age, were traffic is worth money, why don't we infuse the sites with advertising, or generate content, or have the sites have their own magazines, and editorials? their own online boutiques to sell wannabe designers clothes shot by wannabe photographers on wannabe models.. or something Its just it seems that there is this giant line of people waiting for a visa to enter the real fashion world, that just wants to sell them things while their standing around..... Jun 25 05 11:44 am Link I do not know the answer but I love the post. Jun 25 05 11:53 am Link Well, for the most part, those of us that can find paying clients do. Those of us that can't just hang out on & post on, various forums. Your observation about the lack of AD's & CD's here is on the money. Jun 25 05 11:56 am Link A lot of people do understand... but they aren't the ones you see whining about not being able to get some model or photographer to pay them. Some people think big, and some people don't. Still, I think you have some very good ideas here. I've actually seen the editorial content thing done on specialized photo sites, and even on one or two model-photographer sites, but nobody seems to have hit the right formula yet. Jun 25 05 11:57 am Link I would have to agree with both the intial poster and Ken Mierzwa. The key to this is getting the people to get out of the constricted thinking and looking for new niche markets. I think many are not based in reality when it is time to assess talent, look, and body stats vs the "market" I think the biggest part to getting the formula right is hustle and observation of the industry. Feel free to correct me I am a bit addled brained Jun 25 05 12:10 pm Link J. Stakeman: I was pondering the same question for the past few days, and was going to create a post which basically stated the same things. The only difference is that I come from a commercial / advertising end of the spectrum which works the same as you've mentioned, but with different characters playing the parts. PHOTOGRAPHERS RARELY HIRE MODELS! PUBLIC RELATIONS AGENCIES / ADVERTISING AGENCIES are the ones that HIRE MODELS (for ads and promotions). Here's the 'Readers Digest Condensed version of how it works: 1: Acme Widget company needs to sell more widgets. They're great at making widgets, but don't know the first thing about marketing those darned widgets. 2: Acme Widgets hires a Public Relations (PR) company to handle all public inquiries, press releases (news reports), and to create exciting events. Acme Widgets hires an Ad agency to create advertisements that are placed in publications, billboards, movies, and TV. 3: The PR company and Ad agency hire stylists, models (usually through a licensed talent agency), photographers, make-up artists and crew to create work which is displayed in advertisements, and/or do promotions at live events. (Note: the AGENCIES do the hiring... not the photographer!) 4: Widget sales increase, ACME has to build bigger building to facilitate increased sales due to successful marketing campaign. The easiest way to succeed in any business is to watch what others are doing... and DON'T DO IT! On the internet, most models think that photographers do the hiring. For the most part, that fact is furthest from the truth... especially on the internet (where most photographers only offer TFP or TFCD)! The best way to become successful is to take those "Intenet blinders" off, and get yourself known to the REAL decision makers (which are the variety of directors that J. Stakeman has mentioned, or the Ad and PR agencies that I mention). Jun 25 05 12:39 pm Link Posted by J. Stakeman: It is vital that safe, self-policing communities exist for photographers and models to find each other. There are plenty of ways a newcomer can join us by lurking in such forums and participating at their own pace. Most members of these communities are kind to newbies, despite the stereotypes of photographers and models (quickly shattered for me once I became involved a year ago). Jun 25 05 12:45 pm Link I get the value of the self policing community, but I guess my point is.. as a community we could/should be doing more. We all work/want to work in an industry that just wants people's eyes... I think its silly to forget we have them.. I'd love to hear some of the moderators, or site runner's thought's on this. Modeling/fashion sites have a great deal of traffic, I'm just wondering why they don't seem to be using it to re-make the industry, or at least carve out a portion of it for themselves. If that traffic is all advertising is looking for.. why don't we take some of the fashion industry's money that way? Jun 25 05 07:12 pm Link Posted by J. Stakeman: You know they answer: they use agencies to avoid headaches. Jun 25 05 07:28 pm Link Unfortunately I've seen these same questions asked about 8 years ago on other forums and many said "it will be here very soon". Since then I have seen very little change in how the real world market has changed anything on here. The attempts as you've said have been mostly failures. Maybe there's just so much crap on the net now it would take an unheard of amount of combined power and money just to make a dent in the exposure that's needed. All those "people who count" are not cooperating with each other to accomplish anything and I seriously doubt they ever will. Porn is the nets major market whether we like it or not. Everything after that is just a skin game. Everyone trying to look innocent and condemning it are really looking for it. How does the real world modeling market compete with that? How much of the real world do you see on here and all the other sites? Jun 25 05 08:08 pm Link Posted by J. Stakeman: The answer is twofold. Posted by Glamour Studio /Gary: I think the estimate of "it will be here very soon" is because everyone has a sort of "instinctive Spider-Sense" that the Internet CAN help folks on both sides of the coin ... the problem is, no one (except the pornographers) has figured out exactly HOW to do it yet. Jun 25 05 08:49 pm Link I think it, the internet world, is probably populated by people like me who just can't figure out HOW to get jobs. People who post ways seem to explain how to repair a radiator, when I am trying to find out how to drive a car. Oh well, if you want to get into SAG I can tell you how. Need drywall repair, I'm there for you. Fake ID, sure why not... Become a paid advertising photog... no clue... Star Jun 25 05 11:37 pm Link Posted by Star: Go to an advertising agency and show them your book. You live in CA, it's the photogs in OK that should be confused. Jun 26 05 12:11 am Link Damnit, now you let the secret out. Seriously, art directors need a reliable source for talent. A self service modeling site or a self represented model is not a reliable source for REAL commercial gigs. Jun 26 05 01:42 am Link Interesting post. I think the answers given by others are on the mark. No one has quite figured out the logistics of a networking website that could mimic the structure in the real commercial market. There are those on here (and similar sites) that do understand the concept of who really hires whom. They know these sites are for fun or possibly finding someone to test with. Modeling sites like this with open admission attract a dirth of wannabe models, a huge number of wannabe photographers and handfuls of MUAs and stylists. How many aspiring ADs and curators do you know? Maybe it's because these sites are overrun with young hopefuls instead of working, credentialed professionals that they hold little interest for ADs etc. Jun 26 05 02:01 am Link Posted by theda: good god! if sites like this have a dirth i'd hate to see what a glut or a plethora looks like! Jun 26 05 05:15 am Link Posted by theda: I don't thing there can be a solution as IMHO the two options you list are mutually exclusive. Jun 26 05 05:43 am Link I think it's because there are a lot of hobbyists out there. So therefore thier criteria is different. Jun 26 05 05:56 am Link Posted by SayCheeZ!: Acme doesnt make widgets anymore. Jun 26 05 08:04 am Link Art directors are easy. They want exposure, the ability to create what they want, and money. Creative directors, curators, I don't know so much... but there are so many art directors organizing boring commercial shoots that just yearn for shooting something more creative... Theda, I get that we are overrun with a lot of hobbyist, and flaky folks, and never going to be models, there presence is still valuable if the site can turn them into an audience as well as the potential pool of participators. I think a lot of times people look at the state of things, i.e. the composition of people at this site, as natural, rather than designed. I don't think we necessarily have to mesh both worlds... the democratic portfolio free for all and the fascist edited magazine. You could just stack one on the other. This community of creators could be its own audience, there is both power and money in that. As for no one figuring out the logistics, how about this. Online magazines pulling only from talent that post on the site, articles written about things that wanna bes, and about to bes ought to want to know about. Reviews of things, so some folks could get them for free. An edited pinup site, or alt model something, so those folks finally have a market to get paid in. Those sites thrive on content and site traffic, and we have both in spades. The success of those advertising on them fuels the running of the rest of the site, and starts trickling in some money to a jv market of fashion, beauty, glamour so folks don't starve while they are starting, and some project to network towards while they are hanging out on the shout box. or something... Jun 26 05 08:06 am Link Posted by Monsante Bey: There also pro photographers who are also "hobbyists" . Most of the paid work I get as a photographer is editorial images of various kinds: film/video production stills, or shooting stills on corporate video jobs that I am also doing other crew work on (videography, lighting , etc... I am ctually making more of my living from video production work right now. The images that I am doing for my own portfolio might be considered hobby work since its stuff I am not being paid for and because I am just doing it for the sake of doing it. I am sure there are other pro photographers doing the same. Jun 26 05 08:18 am Link J. Stakeman, by your post, In many ways, I can see that you are still new to the real world of print media. For the large body of CD's & AD's, etc; the big issue is time. Running very close to that is looking good to the client & team. First & foremost, most CD's/etc, will have an art buyer look for talent. Next, have you ever seen La book or black book ( books that CD's/etc use ); Only a small group of talent on the internet website, have talent worth considering for print work. CD's/etc (new or around the block) would spend less than one minute before clicking off. The issue is here is not the sites, it is about the talent. And let's put aside, pros vs those whom do it for fun. The question is about the talent. Art Buyers & CD's will not waste time looking for a needle in a haystack. As far as photographers are concern, In the real world this can be seen as a joke, why (I am glad that you asked), most creative can see right though wannabe models & photographers. Either a model is fashion or commercial, not with standing playboy & maxim type. The height & weight of 90% of the online models are a part of the joke. And with the photographers, 95% of them have not a define style to the work. The work is flat in look & concept. I would never want a creative to see me within the mix or MM. The creative can go to my agents site and go from there. MM is fun, if you look at the forums, you can get an real overview. My advise, Don't take any internet site serious, maintain your own, site & book, have an agent sell you & sell yourself. MM is a (10min) mental break from the real world. Keep it as that. Jun 26 05 12:44 pm Link Yo Mr Wyile I dig what you sayin' Those people make choices in less time that it takes my ass to get a decent shot. Talent you either got it or it don't. It is a joke when women UNDER 5' 9" say they want fashion work and the photographers that make everything maxium style... So big props to ya mister Jun 26 05 12:54 pm Link I am glad to hear that someone else feels my vibe. However, let's take this thing one step further. F%#K paying a photographer or model. The only thing that each person should care about is their site & book (real talent will have four to five books). My pictures are the only thing that I care about. Keeping fresh is a must. A model's dollar will feed me in the short run, but hold be back in the long. This business has big dollars and I truly want my share. If you focus on dollars from other talent, believe me, you might kid yourself, but the work will show how it lacks. Moreover, for the few whom can make a career in this business working with clients. The modeling sites can help. The biggest aid being that of, pushing yourself with new concepts, this is a great testing ground for that. Also as a photographer, some model talents will make good portrait subjects. Last, a great resource for personal projects. As for models, 99% have no idea of movement and or face expression. There is no aura. There is nothing but a girl/guy whom has placed themselves in front of a lens. 99% of the models are empty. Talent by way of making a picture, giving yourself to the picture and letting those whom look at the work feel you, is as dead, as dead will be. Maybe, just maybe, someone will create a site. whereas talent and the building of talent is the focus. Jun 26 05 01:45 pm Link Preach on brother. Jun 26 05 02:18 pm Link Posted by XtremeArtists: Posted by Star: Go to an advertising agency and show them your book. You live in CA, it's the photogs in OK that should be confused. So first you pop the hood.... Jun 26 05 02:46 pm Link Very well put and it's food for thought for many of us. I can offer this though, in regards to your comment I bolded (see below), because of the harsh nature of the Internet, I suspect that many of them go online using a different persona. I've come across at least one Art Director for a firm in New York who is posing online as a Photographer. With some really good work I might add. Then, there's another guy who is online as a Photographer, but is also writing a book about the mainstream Industry. After encountering me though in a small truffle, I suspect he's adding an Addendum for the Alternative, Sub-Culture aspects of the Industry. The facts as I see it, many more of their peers might feel reluctant to expose themselves as who they really are, the decision makers, because of the many bad things they perceive could happen to them on the Internet. And, it's too bad they feel that way. Sometimes, I feel many of us could use their online presence to help improve the flow, circulate the talent, explore and open new opportunity to generate income, etc. But, oh well. Anyhow, I did entertain the possibility of creating a new e-zine, but I'm still in observe and study mode. Thanks for the thought provoking post. Posted by J. Stakeman: Jun 26 05 02:57 pm Link Ok Star, See talk about getting work. Let's keep it simple. Your photography is a product. If you treat the work as a product, it will help a whole lot. Why... you ask, because no one really give two F%*ks about your work. And that will become clear as you try to sell it. So, as with any product, you create your own personal site for it. You create mailers to send. You drop off the work and you call (good luck) to show the work. Of course there are a ton of marketing ideas; In basic you have to keep the work out there. Most of all you have to get pictures on the desk of people whom matter. Last, show your work to some reps, even if you do not land a rep the feedback can help a lot. All in all, the biggest element is time, Rome nor a photographic career was built with ease. While all the other shit in your life goes up and or down, to get business the marketing must keep moving. No one, but no one want to see your work. Maybe that is why it is easier to charge models for pictures. I say all of this without viewing your work. If you lie to yourself about your work, there is nothing that marketing will do. Jun 26 05 03:08 pm Link I'd just like to add to some of the statements about personal web sites. Of the 8 years I've had a net presence with my own site, I have received many good commercial jobs from the net. Every single one came from the client directly finding my site and not from being on any modeling sites of which the number I've lost track of. Jun 26 05 04:59 pm Link Posted by Stephen Bodi: Bingo. There are also photographers, like me, who don't need to make a living from photography, but shoot as a "professional hobby" just for the art. Jun 26 05 05:09 pm Link Posted by theda: If sites like this would ask for a registration number that would get rid of the wannabe's and help those that are trying to break into the industry. If I ever make it to being a top model then great. But as long as I advance and achieve and my short and long term goals in the industry then I am a happy and can't complain. Jun 26 05 05:30 pm Link maybe I am reading this wrong... TressieScott: are you saying that people who are trying to "break in" and don't have a registration number from an agency yet shouldn't be here??? I am unclear. "Registration - hmm why not wouldn't that get rid of the wannabe's not only for the models but also for those wannabe's that want to be a photographer." Just wondering. Jun 26 05 05:39 pm Link Posted by Joe K. Perez: Hey, you said you wouldn't "out" me! Jun 26 05 05:59 pm Link Posted by J. Stakeman: The internet isn't alive; it's a conglomeration of a load of people who are - all of whom have different agendas, different skill levels, and different ideas of what's good and bad. Some are trying to make money on photography, or modelling - others are cheerfully losing it. The reason your puzzled is because you're looking at a macroscopic entity that appears to be this big thing but actually is just a space where zillions of little things bump into eachother say "excuse me..." and move on. Jun 26 05 06:07 pm Link The life of posts in forums is interesting.. while this one has veered off quite a bit from where I imagined it would go it is none the less fascinating First to address this Posted by bill wylie: While I'm tempted to agree with you because you wrote with a lot of force and attitude, I won't. Jun 26 05 06:36 pm Link |
