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Letting this s**t go to their heads....
why is it I see so many profile/portfolios of models who have done 1-2 shoots with a photographer and suddenly their work status has changed to "I'm an experienced model"?? Last time I checked you were not professional until paid or had tearsheets....the worst is now they're demanding fees of models who are actually experienced. Feb 26 06 11:37 am Link Its the internet. What do you expect? bs Feb 26 06 11:39 am Link Indeed, it is the internet and there's no better reason really. If somebody wants to pay 'em, let them.... or let the models figure it out on their own. If they don't have the drive or desire to look for work that will provide tearsheets, they'll lose interest soon enough or join the ranks of hobby models. (There's nothing wrong with that, in my opinion- to model as a hooby. Just sayin'.) If you don't want to pay them, move on to the next profile. The beautiful thing is that there are many to choose from on the internet; it's a click away to find an experienced model who's worth the money in your opinion or an inexperienced model seeking TFP. Feb 26 06 11:43 am Link Amen to that! There's nothing wrong with being a novice. TFP can help them grow and lean about themselves so that one day they can deserve the fee's they seek now. You can wake up one day and say you're a pro in any other profession. It's no different in this industry. Feb 26 06 11:43 am Link Well I am not sure why everyone else does it. But, what I can say is, how do you know for sure that they have only done 1-2 shoots? I know I have done dozens of shoots, but select the ones from my most recent which I like the best to display in my port. Maybe I am doing it wrong?? I don't have a tear sheet, but I do have experience. Also, like myself, maybe the models have been instructed by other and even more experienced models and photographers to do so?? Not sure if you were looking for that response, but just wanted to add my opinion. Have a wonderful day.  JJ~ Feb 26 06 11:44 am Link Correction, you CAN'T wake up one day and say you're a pro. Feb 26 06 11:46 am Link Studio M Photography wrote: I am curious why this is so important to people. I agree with Bobby, it is the Interent, but why does it really matter. If you don't like the model or her rates, just don't work with her. It seems simple enough to me. Feb 26 06 11:47 am Link How can you tell...well when you see there profile all you get are no credits/work and if they have more than 1 pic its from a webcam or shot by their friend one drunken night..... Feb 26 06 11:47 am Link I have already been through this discussion on another forum, and the up roar it caused. Not many models replied. Here are some of the points that were made, if a photographer is willing to pay the model, than that is his/her choice. who is to say a model of one day does not have more talent than a model of ten years. those are pretty valid points, and sure we all want to get paid for work that we do. But I guess we all expect people to pay their dues. Go through the steps and process of climbing up the ladder to the wanted status. But as photographers should we not ask the same questions about the wanna be photographers, just because you are able to afford a camera does not make you a photographer. I SEE so many badly posed and exposed images, such garbage that is out there but yet these people call themselves photographers and ask for money too. SO in the end its like the response prior to this one has said, its the internet, and you have to be able to pick out the good from the bad. P.S. I do not claim to be a great photographer, infact I ask people to critique my work cause it is the only way for me to learn. Feb 26 06 11:49 am Link Joseph, i agree.... with the easy access to pro level digital cameras every Tom, Dick and Harry thinks he's a photographer. I do not consider myself a professional photographer...i'm a semi-pro at best....I haven't worked w/ any big models that have made, i have not been publish, don't have tear sheets. But what i do have is solid grasp of my craft and while I may never perfect it i am a student of it and do quite well....so maybe photogs should have to answer the same questions..... Feb 26 06 11:55 am Link The thing about it being the internet, and modeling being the industry that it is.... there are a lot of different steps, a lot of paths to take, a lot of people who are more than happy to tell you what to do in order to make it big. There's a lot of great advice out there and there's plenty of not so great advice too; the key is learning, like in other industry. But I don't think it's as cut and dry as in other industries. For example, if you want to be a manager at xyz store, you know you have to get hired and work as a store clerk/cashier/whatever before you get your next promotion, unless you have previous managerial experience. There are exceptions to the rule, but in general it works the same way. Modeling is a lot murkier. Lots of people will say you're not professional till you have an agency and a paid shoot that results in a tear sheet. But not all modeling results in a tear sheet, and a tear sheet can certainly come out of an unpaid shoot just as easily as a paid shoot can mean a pervert in his basement with a cheapo camera trying to get girls naked. There are some industry standards, however they don't always apply across the board because there are different kinds of modeling. Add to the equation that someone can make a profile and put in it whatever they wish, and they may or may not be getting quality advice. If they're getting any at all, or seeking it for that matter. Feb 26 06 12:00 pm Link True modeling is not as black and white, and there are many women who find themselves working, highly paid professionals overnight. But inexperienced models on the web who are demanding high fee's they are not worthy of are the same girls wondering why they aren't getting any work. Feb 26 06 12:12 pm Link Studio M Photography wrote: I agree-yes, there are people on both sides that will never make it and when I've shown my work to a gorl that has 'modeled' with some newbie with a digi and she cimpares the work she realizes who knows their shit and who doesn't. That's the difference on both sides. It's not hard to differentiat any more than it's hard to tell a new waitperson from an experienced so where's the beef? Feb 26 06 12:35 pm Link Blame the people who stroke your ego till no end. A lot of those people are on here you know!  Feb 26 06 12:39 pm Link Some people feel they have a worth no matter what anyone else says. If they're new to modeling, than maybe they don't know better than to charge without having much experience if any experience at all. Don't blame them. Just educate them on how this industry really operates and if they still don't get it, or don't care to take your good advice...then forget it. But some models just don't know any better. Some others just feel that they are worth being paid to model, regardless if they have tear sheets or not. I only have one tear sheet, I'm not 100% happy with it, so I don't show it. but I'll mention it on my resume. I've been into modeling for years, and only choose to work with few select photographers and few select projects that I'm really into and approving of. Rather than work with a bunch of photographers doing tfp/tfcd just for the hell of it to say I have good experience. This doesn't mean I don't have the experience and not worth being paid if I request it. Some photographers I feel are just too into getting paid for the work they do, rather than paying for what they really want. I can tell you how many photographers have had the nerve to send me ads and e-mails offering their services, yet their work just isn't worth it to me (and they can have some notable credits on their resume)...but they keep offering their services to me like they really want to work with me. If you really want to work with a particular model seriously enough and she demands monetary compensation...then cough up the cash, or find another model to pursue. Don't complain about it. Because just as photographers feel there are models that don't deserve to be paid for shooting.....there are models just the same that feel some photographers don't deserve to be paid regardless of what their credits are. Now by all means, I'm not targeting you or anything. So don't take offense to what I'm saying. All I'm trying to point out is the other side. That while you have valid reason to complain, you gotta also realize that sometimes you may not be seeing the bigger picture. Models new or experienced all have their reasons and rights behind if they charge or do a billion tfp's/tfcd's first before demanding pay. You can either observe their reasons and maybe give some constructive feedback to them and then see if they'll consider your advice or not. Or just shake your head at their arrogance and lack of knowledge about how this industry works and keep moving on without educating them a little on it. Ya know. Feb 26 06 02:06 pm Link If you don't think they're worth it, then either don't pay or find someone else to shoot. Feb 26 06 02:12 pm Link Studio M Photography wrote: Who said "experienced" and "professional" have to go hand in hand? I know a couple models with 10+ years of fairly regular experience (9 to 12 sessions/year), who've been flown across the country to work with some pretty big-name photographers, and who've never been paid a dime. And they don't have any tears. They're hanging in lots of galleries and private collections, but never once been in a magazine. Feb 26 06 02:17 pm Link Tim Hammond wrote: I agree , I am very new to this but so far I have dealt with "Professional"s that i would not do anything for, and many "amatuers" that I will do almost anything for, as long as it did not get immoral..... Feb 26 06 02:20 pm Link thank god someone finally made this groundbreaking thread. Feb 26 06 02:54 pm Link jon mmmayhem wrote: No shit sherlock. Feb 26 06 03:01 pm Link Diana Moffitt wrote: EDIT: Well, crap. I just hit quote to see how you made the little face and then hit reply by accident. Now I'm wondering why I felt so compelled to explain myself, thinking maybe I have some kind of compulsive disorder and should seek immediate psychiatric help... Feb 26 06 04:52 pm Link bla bla bla model with web cam shots bla bla bla only does paid assignments bla bla bla. Pay the little "pay me now" dog and be done with your complaints. There are hundreds of models on MM that have great profiles and easy terms. Why do new photographer members so frequently start off with this same subject? Feb 26 06 05:08 pm Link A model (or photographer) can charge right off the bat even without images or without having ever worked a camera before. Whether or not anyone hires them is the discretion of the person doing the hiring... - Denoy P.S. There are some "models" who have never ever modeled before that I would be willing to PAY right off the bat if they can produce the images I need. Feb 26 06 05:14 pm Link fiona goodell wrote: So, so true! Feb 26 06 06:00 pm Link Maybe here is the problem; Those who should say, I AM LUCKY TO HAVE A MEDIUM LIKE THE INTERNET, getting the chance to be model or a photographer getting another way to be recognized. They are saying I never did this before but want to get paid. So I am thinking, SOME PEOPLE instead of saying I am new to this would like to try my hand in it and make some money. If I like what is happening, I would like to persue the dream even further. They are saying it is my time, my effort, my appeal or look my work and if you are interested pay up. I HAVE QUESTION TO ADD TO THIS, if the newbie model admits not having much experience, says they would like to learn but would like to get paid 15.00hr and 2-3prints, would we have the same discussion as we are doing now. OR would that request be fair. For all of us who think this is not proper, well then we should just move onto the next person and wish the newbie pro photographer or newbie experienced model all the best and leave it at that. Feb 26 06 06:40 pm Link Studio M Photography wrote: Since when does some money or a tear sheet make anyone professional? Feb 26 06 08:50 pm Link Alan from Aavian Prod wrote: Exactly. If I like what I see, I book them. I never let a models posted rate influence me; I make them a realistic offer,and they can either work for what I'm offering, or sit and wait for a BBD. Feb 27 06 12:24 am Link Studio M Photography wrote: lol, beats me.. but if you find out.... lemme know Feb 27 06 04:55 am Link Now you know why I dont pay models.... If someone says they are experienced I dont trust them and not about to pay a beginer.... If they turn out to be experienced....heck..I have a virtual shopping mall of models I dont have to pay available. If I have a client who is paying for an experienced look..that is a different story...but for my own promotional needs.....to pay a model is silly.... Allen Feb 27 06 05:01 am Link There is a difference between "a Professional" and being professional. Even someone who makes nothing, charges nothing, spends nothing can BE professional....still doesn't make them "A professional" Feb 27 06 11:38 am Link Vanessa Veasley wrote: Yes you CAN! You'd just be wrong. Feb 27 06 11:42 am Link Yze wrote: Great come back! Feb 27 06 11:51 am Link Professional as defined by Webster: Main Entry: 1pro·fes·sion·al Pronunciation: pr&-'fesh-n&l, -'fe-sh&-n&l Function: adjective 1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b : engaged in one of the learned professions c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace 2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs b : having a particular profession as a permanent career c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return Feb 27 06 11:59 am Link |
