Vance wrote:
You try to do it on a handshake and they just do the do.

It's all good, I am TFP..D O N E>

You are going to do anything on a handshake you'd better learn to count you fingers when you're done.

Studio36

Chelsea Gilgore wrote:
she probably just didn't want to pay.

Not that what she did was right, but having to pay for retouches? I've never heard of that. Usually the photographer wants his pics to look as good as possible before giving them to anyone. By the time the model gets them, there shouldn't be a reason for her to want to edit them.

Exactly.
Isn't it the photographers reputation and name on the line, as well as models?
Before you get angry, think about it. Also be sure the model fully understands these terms and has them in writting before hand to avoid confusion. Trickery is unfair and just strange.

Chelsea Gilgore wrote:
she probably just didn't want to pay.

Not that what she did was right, but having to pay for retouches? I've never heard of that. Usually the photographer wants his pics to look as good as possible before giving them to anyone. By the time the model gets them, there shouldn't be a reason for her to want to edit them.

The photographer always wants his pics to look as good as possible, that's why there never given to the model before they're edited.  You're right, there shouldn't be any reason, but she did it and others do it.

BasementStudios wrote:

The photographer always wants his pics to look as good as possible, that's why there never given to the model before they're edited.  You're right, there shouldn't be any reason, but she did it and others do it.

i've been told by a photographer friend of mine in the bus. for 27yrs that i'm screwing up and i should not give away the digital file. just printed pictures.

Photos by Henry wrote:

i've been told by a photographer friend of mine in the bus. for 27yrs that i'm screwing up and i should not give away the digital file. just printed pictures.

Henry,
You can always do what another photographer on here does, and have your copywrite on certain parts of the photos where it would look awful if the model or anyone else tried to edit them out. I can't remember what the name of the member is, but he may show up here on the forum in a bit...

I have heard about it, but not sure if it is true...that there is a way to embed something in the files so that the can't be edited. Either a way they are saved, or something. I am not sure.

Photos by Henry wrote:
kinda new to this tfp tfcd. thing i had to give stuff away when i first started around town here. now i'm doing it again to start up my model port.

here is the way i did the first couple and it looks like it might work.

i'm not going to retouch all the pics anyway so i just put my stamp on the ones i do.  they expect all on a cd so what they do with the others i guess is up to them.

until they make money with them then i revert back to my model form they sign.

which states i hold the copyrights!

i duno, i'm new to this part of photography but willing to learn.

You don't have to retouch all the images, just the best ones, then choose a fair number, I usually give 10-12 of the best, edited, on a cd.  NEVER, NEVER give all the images and never give unedited images leaving the model with the idea that she can edit your work.  Just remember, if they're messed up, it's your reputtion, not hers.  When people lookat a photo and something is wrong with it, it' the photographer's fault, as far as they're concerned.

Photos by Henry wrote:
kinda new to this tfp tfcd. thing i had to give stuff away when i first started around town here. now i'm doing it again to start up my model port.

here is the way i did the first couple and it looks like it might work.

i'm not going to retouch all the pics anyway so i just put my stamp on the ones i do.  they expect all on a cd so what they do with the others i guess is up to them.

until they make money with them then i revert back to my model form they sign.

which states i hold the copyrights!

i duno, i'm new to this part of photography but willing to learn.

Oh, and I saw the other edited pics of August that you got up on the other site. You do such a good job with editing, that a model would have to be crazy to want to edit anything. I had no idea you would make Augie your main image, though...thanks so much! She had fun Saturday. She told me she didn't want you to leave, because she wanted to take "All of the pictures!" She was getting tired, though. She did good for a first time I think.

BasementStudios wrote:
You don't have to retouch all the images, just the best ones, then choose a fair number, I usually give 10-12 of the best, edited, on a cd.  NEVER, NEVER give all the images and never give unedited images leaving the model with the idea that she can edit your work.  Just remember, if they're messed up, it's your reputtion, not hers.  When people lookat a photo and something is wrong with it, it' the photographer's fault, as far as they're concerned.

right, it's not like it's her face in the pictures or anything

Vance wrote:
Yeah I should have been more clear...

Heres the scoop..

She retouched..the retouches! And did a poor job to boot..

As it was a TFP I said I would send a WEB resolution CD. And I am not going to retouch EVERY image. BUT I did retouch five, and she goes and retouches the retouches.

Now, I am not going to send the CD until she signs an agreement stating she wont retouch the images.

As for never hearing of a model having to pay for retouches?
It is quite common in this business.

I give the model 3-5 for free.

But, I am not going to retoouch every single image PROBONO..

After the free ones, you have to pay. I think that is fair.

How many images do you need from a 200-300 TFP shoot?

If you need more than the 5 free ones, I am down with retouching as long as you pay for the time.

V

TFP doesn't mean free shoot but pay for retouching. That is a whole other entity. Now, if that is the way you chose to do your business, that is cool. I hope it was upfront because I would never agree to something like that, unless you had like mad tear sheets and hollywood hookups.

How many images do you need? Maybe 1-3 tops. However, as a tfp, the model should have a choice of ALL the picture, just as the photographer has that choice.

Photos by Henry wrote:
i'm not going to retouch all the pics anyway so i just put my stamp on the ones i do.  they expect all on a cd so what they do with the others i guess is up to them.

Henry,
Take a close look around MM here. You will see dozens of models posting unedited professional shots. All with captions like "The photographer jim smith hasn't sent me the edited pic yet, but here are my lastest" Pic posted may 2005. I have even come across one porfolio displaying images with the studio's water mark and the word proof on the images.
To all,
Any expectations you have of those you work with should be clearly defined (IN WRITTING) before the shoot takes place.

theda wrote:
I usually make sure that *I* get to choose the images I want for retouching form the photographer so I don't end up in a similar situation.

I agree, and thats what we did..

Right after the shoot..

Now if you look at my port you can see I am not too bad of a retoucher.

The retouches this person did, were nothng less than cosmetic surgery. I mean the images look HORRIBLE.

TFP is one of those things that has it's ups and downs.

I figure a model can ger 3-5 retouches and the web resolution cd is a proof sheet of sorts.

If they want print ready images from that CD, I will retouch and send em off for $15 a pop.

My contract states as much, now that I look at it.

I just thought it was rude, ot to mention the work was HORRID.

If it had been cropping, no worries..A missed blemish or freckle..No worries..

Not the case..

I couldnt find the contract during the shoot and so I decided to be cool and send images as I retouched.

I get behind in images sometimes and didnt want to do that in this case. So away theyt went,....and BAM!  LOL..

That wont happen again...

I'd say who, but I am not trying to bust anybody out.

It just rubbed me a littl raw.....especially after all the hootin and hollerin over how happy she was with the shoot.

Time to rewrite the house rules...

Lesson learned..

Angel Tara wrote:
TFP doesn't mean free shoot but pay for retouching. That is a whole other entity. Now, if that is the way you chose to do your business, that is cool. I hope it was upfront because I would never agree to something like that, unless you had like mad tear sheets and hollywood hookups.

How many images do you need? Maybe 1-3 tops. However, as a tfp, the model should have a choice of ALL the picture, just as the photographer has that choice.

Do you mean choice from all of the images? Or do you mean all of the images?

Cause, few phoggraphers are going to give any model all of the images. I delete what I call "crap"...who doesnt?

I am not putting crap out in the world..And as I get better, I get  even more picky.

If you do TFP with a photgrapher, you are saying you have a certain amount of trust in their work. So why go back on that after the shoot?

I agree with another poster. TFP can be fraught with problems if EVERYTHING isnt spelled out. Though in this case I thought it was. MY BAD.

But, no photgrapher is going to edit every single image. Hell, Ive gone back and edited long after a shoot. I simply send that image to the model. Burt every image? No way...too much time..

In my opinon, after the TFP is done and images have been sent. THE TFP is DONE..

Of cource there are images that havent been used. I keep them on file in case a model decides one day she wants more. But not for free mind you. We both got what we wanted from the original shoot.

I maintain the rights as all photgraphers do. Now if youwant anything above and beyond the original TFP, which always includes retouches, then it's only fair you pay for that time.

Angel Tara wrote:
How many images do you need? Maybe 1-3 tops. However, as a tfp, the model should have a choice of ALL the picture, just as the photographer has that choice.

Tara,
I might, big maybe, trust you with all the pre-edits, theda as well, but look around. How many "wan-an-bees" do you see here? How many bad/verybad choices do you see them making? While I don't want to see anyone fall pery to the scammers and the freaks/GWCs, I don't want to be taken for a fool either.
Get what you want in writing beforehand.

Vance wrote:

Do you mean choice from all of the images? Or do you mean all of the images?

Cause, few phoggraphers are going to give any model all of the images. I delete what I call "crap"...who doesnt?

I am not putting crap out in the world..And as I get better, I get  even more picky.

If you do TFP with a photgrapher, you are saying you have a certain amount of trust in their work. So why go back on that after the shoot?

I agree with another poster. TFP can be fraught with problems if EVERYTHING isnt spelled out. Though in this case I thought it was. MY BAD.

But, no photgrapher is going to edit every single image. Hell, Ive gone back and edited long after a shoot. I simply send that image to the model. Burt every image? No way...too much time..

In my opinon, after the TFP is done and images have been sent. THE TFP is DONE..

Of cource there are images that havent been used. I keep them on file in case a model decides one day she wants more. But not for free mind you. We both got what we wanted from the original shoot.

I maintain the rights as all photgraphers do. Now if youwant anything above and beyond the original TFP, which always includes retouches, then it's only fair you pay for that time.

No, I'm not saying you should edit every image.

But if you are choosing to work with someone who is so unprofessional that you can't trust them with raw or even photoshopped images, then maybe you should be more careful about who you are working with.

For instance, a few of the BEST on this site, have provided me with a cd of ALL my images. Do I want to use all of them, no. However, I have my choice of what I want edited by him and he will send it to me. He has the trust that I will not post unedited photos. It is all about who you trust to work with. If I ask for more than say, 5, he will not start charging me.

All I was saying is that I hope your terms were upfront. I am sorry you worked with someone who chose to edit your pics post-edit. But that is not all models. And no, I do not think there is some unwritten rule in tfp that says you pay for retouches. This is new to me, and I Do not consider myself a NEW model.

Vance wrote:
In my opinon, after the TFP is done and images have been sent. THE TFP is DONE..

Of cource there are images that havent been used. I keep them on file in case a model decides one day she wants more. But not for free mind you. We both got what we wanted from the original shoot.

I maintain the rights as all photgraphers do. Now if youwant anything above and beyond the original TFP, which always includes retouches, then it's only fair you pay for that time.

Amen

KARLOS MATTHEWS wrote:
The best thing to do is explain everthing upfront. I edit and retouch all images and I never supply a full CD nor do I let the models edit. I do realize some photographers and models work together in the edit process but I don't. The # 1 reason usually the model is too busy to go through this process. My method or TFP/CD has been working for me for some time now. I just wish everyone would realize different photographers will have different rules plan and simple.

Not everyone does it the same. That is what I am saying...as long as it is upfront.

Be careful of whom you work with.

Dont get me wrong,

If anybody chooses to give more than 5 as a part of the TFP, thats cool. Hell I may if the vibe is cool and the shoot was a complete smash. I am all about giving.

But "I" do have a written rule. 3-5 images. Retouched, high res and print ready.

This rule is in place to balance my time, as this is a full tme occupation and I must manage my time.

I am very clear on all shoots with this. We get quite a few looks in during these shoots. I always  Have an MUA/Stylist in on all shoots at my cost..unles the model says they dont need one.

My biggest problem here was the unprofessionalism that occured. And it's hapend a lot as of late for whatever reason, even with contracts.

Bottom line is, I am not going to call up my lawyer at 250.00 per hour to pursue a retouch bandit.LOL

And if I had a crystal ball and could tell befrehand, You bet your bottom dollar I wouldnt begin the shoot.

there are many approaches and I respect them all. So I should acknowledge that.
I am simply stating my rules. 3-5 retouches is it. Unless I am in a giving mood.

After that, there is a charge..

Otherwise, I would be doing retouches for the rest of my life...LOL

I'm closing down TFp anyway, and not jst because of this incident. But because this studio is moving in a new direction. AND WHEN I SAY NO MORE TFP..What I mean is, no more for portfolio building. I have a group of awesome people t do cool stuff with. My concepts and theirs. I may even see somebdy from time to time that I JUST GOTTA Shoot...But no more request fr portflio work.

I do so much more than photgraphy within my company, I just cant do it on the level I have done n the past.

I have learned a lot, and I hope to continue to grow.

That's what it's all about..

Happy Posting!


Vance

Angel Tara wrote:

Not everyone does it the same. That is what I am saying...as long as it is upfront.

Be careful of whom you work with.

cool we agree then how bout a TFP you'll get 2 web imges done by yours truely :-)

KARLOS MATTHEWS wrote:
cool we agree then how bout a TFP you'll get 2 web imges done by yours truely :-)

I would but uhhh, the crazy distance between us hinders me!

I have NO problem working tfp. But I won't be taken advantage of. And that comment has NOTHING to do with Karlos.

*kisses* ♥

Vance wrote:
I recently did a shoot and told the model..DO NOT EDIT THE PICS....I said..

I will edit images and get them to you.

And if you want images after that...Let me know and you can pay for retouches...

So what happens..

She starts editing the ones I sent..

SOOOOOOOO, she gets no more until she signs an agreement stating she will not edit my pics.

Geeeeeesh!

You try to do it on a handshake and they just do the do.

It's all good, I am TFP..D O N E>

Werd...

I just wouldnt give the model the unedited shots!  --  when I shoot.... I pick the best shots... I give the model the edited shots--  actually, I never let ANYONE see my unedited work!

Vance wrote:
Snip

She starts editing the ones I sent..

SOOOOOOOO, she gets no more until she signs an agreement stating she will not edit my pics.

Geeeeeesh!

You try to do it on a handshake and they just do the do.

It's all good, I am TFP..D O N E>

Werd...

This is a new one on me.

Sign the release before the camera captures a single frame.

Next question....

UnoMundo Photography wrote:
Well, it depends on who pays!

I dont do TFP...rack of problems!

When I pay a model the pics are mine or my client. if they are mine, I give the model her choice  of pics - free advertising - even if i paid her.  I have NEVER used a pic that a model is unhappy about - that will create a bad working relationship..

When the model pays me, I give ALL the pics. Then i edit a number of pics 'in the package deal' that the model chooses. Beyond the package deal - then I charge per edit.

I thought I was done with this topic but this is a good point. Model pays him..he agree to edit a certain number of pics. Beyond that, there is an extra charge. Seems fair to me...

Kinda pointless but anyway...

Angel Tara wrote:
right, it's not like it's her face in the pictures or anything

Doesn't matter whether it's the model's face or not, if there is anything wrong in the image the photogapher is the one that gets blamed I have seen it happen far too many times with photographers.

Angel Tara wrote:
No, I'm not saying you should edit every image.

But if you are choosing to work with someone who is so unprofessional that you can't trust them with raw or even photoshopped images, then maybe you should be more careful about who you are working with.

For instance, a few of the BEST on this site, have provided me with a cd of ALL my images. Do I want to use all of them, no. However, I have my choice of what I want edited by him and he will send it to me. He has the trust that I will not post unedited photos. It is all about who you trust to work with. If I ask for more than say, 5, he will not start charging me.

All I was saying is that I hope your terms were upfront. I am sorry you worked with someone who chose to edit your pics post-edit. But that is not all models. And no, I do not think there is some unwritten rule in tfp that says you pay for retouches. This is new to me, and I Do not consider myself a NEW model.

Well good, you're honest, unfortunately there are a lot of models that aren't I've dealt with some from here that had exceptional references from other photographers, but pulled the same stunt with editing.  You don't know who you can trust up front.  You can get a certain degree of comfort up front, but trust comes with time.  You can hope for a certain amount of credibility if someone claims to be a "pro", but those "hopes" don't always come true.  It's those bad ones that ruin it for everyone.

Craig Thomson wrote:

This is a new one on me.

Sign the release before the camera captures a single frame.

Next question....

Yep I think we covered that...

And, I wasnt asking a question..I think I was venting like a little b@^$ch..

LOL....

WERD UP...

BeccaNDSouth wrote:

Oh, and I saw the other edited pics of August that you got up on the other site. You do such a good job with editing, that a model would have to be crazy to want to edit anything. I had no idea you would make Augie your main image, though...thanks so much! She had fun Saturday. She told me she didn't want you to leave, because she wanted to take "All of the pictures!" She was getting tired, though. She did good for a first time I think.

thanks "becca"

i will have your cd to you by this weekend unless the sky falls or something.
i'm going to try to do my best for everyone i work with, tfcd or paid.
maybe, they will remember me when they make it to the big time.
i can always fall back on my family/senior portroit stuff around here, until i get a feel if i belong with the other photographers on the sites or not.