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Please don't stone me - question for the alt crowd
Good morning y'all, I was talking to a photographer friend of mine the other night, and horrified him by confusing alternative models with goth models. I'm pretty sure I know a fetish model when I see one, but fetish seems to be so spread out that maybe I don't. (For example, I love fetish imagery and would love to do more of it. However, I'm entirely too girl-next-door looking to ever be able to say "I'm a fetish model" without cracking people up. Le sigh. It's my curse, I tell ya.) So, lest I inadvertantly offend and horrify anyone else (except my having to ask is probably already having this effect), can the difference between goth, alternative, and fetish models be succinctly explained to me? *ducks* Jun 12 05 12:06 pm Link i think its a shame how fetish is so associated with being goth. there is a whole lot more to being a fetish model then wearing black lipstick. One of the most popular fetishes is feet fetish. I personally dont dig feet but lots of people do. If you go to a foot fetish site like www.feetfair.com (just an example) you wont see any of the girls on that site wearing black lipstick or vinyl/pvc outfits and all of the models on that site have a girl next door look, however im sure plenty of foot fetish sites do have plenty of goth models. Its just a pure matter of taste. Lots of other fetish sites consist of food, stockings, etc. Be yourself and create your own brand identity.  ) Jun 12 05 01:23 pm Link I've said it before: Terms like "alternative" "goth" "fetish" "glamour" "erotic" and "fine art" have been stretched so far that they can no longer hold a meaning. I simply think of the people that work with me as fellow artists who have decided to join me in my explorations of the space where sensation and emotion meet. I try to keep blanket terminology to a minimum when I describe my work...or I just call it "Porn" with a big smile...that always gets 'em. Jun 12 05 01:41 pm Link IMO, There should only be 5 different types of models, regular, petite, plus, childrens/juniors, and mens. Jun 12 05 01:56 pm Link Webster's Dictionary: Fetish - Anything held in unreasoning devotion; (in Physchiatry) any nonseaxual object that excites erotic feelings. Talk about covering "all" the bases!! *smile* Jun 12 05 03:17 pm Link Ok, People that are refered to as goth models, or punk models, or the larger grouping of alt models, are generally just models that are goth, punk, etc. Fetish models are any model doing fetish work. They are different in that a goth model is a gothic person. They generally look it, cause it's a descriptive term, where a fetish or X model is reflective of the material they are willing to shoot. (theres regular, petite, plus, childrens and mens too, but generally with alt fashion no one cares,(since it's about a lifestyle) so it's referred to as just goth, punk or industrial.) There'a alot of problems with people thinking any in the alt crowd are willing to drop they're clothing and shove a big red ball in thier mouths, but it's a misconseption. generally fetish is just a type of "Modeling". like commercial, X, Lingerie, Swimsuit... blah blah blah... God I hope that made sence. Generally however if you call one kind of model another, they should just correct you and not get bent all out of shape. it's not like ya shot em'  Jun 12 05 03:19 pm Link I dont usually like to put so many labels on models, i just like what i like. If some ppl call it goth, thats great. If some ppl call it fetish, thats nice, i just like good photography/models, not matter what "catergory" ppl put it into. Jun 12 05 03:39 pm Link I consider alternative modelling to be anything that isn't classically mainstream, so goth and fetish both fall into the "alt." category for me. But so does retro/pinup. Those 3 things are all quite different. What annoys me is when people assume that "alternative" means "nude + fetish". Dude, just because I like to shave my head and wear latex dresses occasionally does not mean I'm interested in doing spread/penetration for your boring pr0n site. Jun 12 05 03:46 pm Link I really see no substantial difference between alt modeling and goth modeling, except that the latter is really a subdivision of the former. Not every freak really fits into the catergory of "goth," but most of the people calling themselves goth today don't look much like I remember goth, and I'm not that old. Fetish modeling, however, is another matter. There is a sexual element to fetish work by definition. Even if the work is fetish fashion, we are still talking about dressing a model in commonly fetishized garments (corsetry, latex, leather, etc.). Some fetish models are heavily modded, but many are not. I can see why a fetish model would be annoyed by being called an alt model, simply because the "alt modeling" genre is usually a bunch of amatuers shooting portraiture with little or no commercial appeal. Occasionally, some catalog or smut sites pop up in there (but isn't that just fashion or porn?). Fetish modeling is commercially viable adult-oriented work, so I can see why the alt model who doesn't want to do anything sexual on camera would be annoyed by the assumption that it's all the same. However, I know or know of several full-time pro fetish models. I don't know of a single full-time pro "alt" model. Jun 12 05 03:51 pm Link *looks around* Where's my rock? lol Jun 12 05 04:45 pm Link Posted by Josie Nutter: i tried explaining that to a model once, she wasn't hearing it. oh well. you can't enlighten everyone. Jun 12 05 05:00 pm Link Josie- Perfectly said...!!! Jun 12 05 05:13 pm Link ditto. Alternative is anything that IS NOT mainstream (glam, commercial, etc) so fetish fits in this category. Goth, etc is a subset of all of the 'alt' crap. Then again, who cares? Modeling is modeling. Jun 12 05 05:47 pm Link Posted by Shyly: my strap-on? Jun 12 05 07:27 pm Link Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: Heh. Your work is anything but porn. Posted by Josie Nutter: As always, you say it perfectly. Jun 12 05 07:50 pm Link Posted by Pinky: That would be a very dull world. Jun 12 05 09:10 pm Link Posted by Mark Leighty: BRAVO! Jun 12 05 09:23 pm Link Posted by Leila: Posted by Pinky: That would be a very dull world. not really. Within those "types" you can have all different types and variations of modeling. Jun 12 05 09:33 pm Link altertative covers anything not mainstream. but not everyone with an alternative look is goth, being a goth is determined by your style of dress and the music you listen to among many other things, just like a punk, or a raver, or a hippie, or a metal head... its mainly determined by style and music choice. I'm a metal head, but there really aren't enough metal chicks modeling to call it a subgenre, people don't ever say punk model, or hippie model... they just kinda lump everyone who isn't mainstream into the gothic category, when most of us in fact aren't gothic at all. It really anoys me when people call me goth, because i'm not a goth in the least... I know its just out of ignorance, people don't know any better. I don't expect a soccer mom to be able to properly list all the labels and types of genres of alternative folks, they just easier call all of us, goths, or freaks, or weirdos, or whatver. They're not in the scene so they don't know. On that same note, a goth may know what metal is, but if its not what they listen to they probably couldn't tell you the difference between, death metal, black metal, power metal, speed metal, or fatasy metal, etc. And I couldn't name of the different kinds of goth music, whatever that may be. I'm babbling please don't call me gothic Jun 12 05 11:31 pm Link I see only 2 categories. Mainstream and alternative. That's all. When I shoot people in Abercrombie and Saks Fith Avenue, that is mainstream. When I shoot people in metal and latex, that is alternative. Personally, I call my style "dark fashion" because I enjoy walking the line between the two. I like stuff with mainstream appeal but with an alternative edge. That is what I strive for. Lots of times, I fail and fall on one side of the line or the other. But it's great when I land right in the perfect mix. Jun 13 05 02:57 am Link Posted by Shyly: Well as you have read from the SG topics most models can be made to look this way and they currently do it for sites. I really don't care either way because it is all about the image to me. I think some models and photographers think they are better than others because they are actually into that scene in real life but who gives a fuck when it comes to photography Jun 13 05 10:15 am Link Posted by ( ANT ) Mgaphoto: So true. Much of photography is about creating an illusion. With the exception of photojournalism, photographers strive to create and depict a situation that isn't real. The fact is when casting directors and ad execs need an alt girl, they usually hit a reputable local agency and find a character model to portray that style. Yeah, the people who are really into that "scene" can usually tell the difference, but the average consumer can't. It seems it's only when the target audience is other freaky people that actual freaky people are sought out for this stuff. Jun 13 05 10:52 am Link Posted by Shyly: To me there is a lifestyle and then there is modeling. You can take a good model, dress direct them into being "alternative goth fetish" whatever and if the rest of the composition works, have a result that reads alt. goth fetish. If you are attempting to convey more complex or intense ideas or images, then what exists between the ears of your model or his/her lifestyle makes a difference to me. Take fetish for example....you can choose to explore aspects of fetish with something as simple as fashion. Since fetish has become more mainstream there are probably lots of models who would both want and be able to pull off a series of (lets say) shoe shots. On the other hand if you want to show corset training or breath control, then getting a model who actually is in the lifestyle or really familiar with it, is going to be better than taking a swimsuit model off of OMP and trying to mummify him (and/or) her or take her waist down to half it's normal size. In this case, it's not just how it reads in the final photo that's at issue, it's the safety of the model. Posted by Shyly: I agree with the other posters who ID alternative as out of the maintstream. A goth or fetish model isn't typically who Sears or Walmart is using to hawk their wares, and the average joe glamour swimsuit photographer (or gwc) isn't out there using alt models for their bunny on the beach shots (just look to the transgendered and tattoo threads to get the vibe on how those are viewed). Anyways, a strange thing happens when "alternative" is appropriated by the mainstream and used to sell shit. In many ways, things start to lose their purity, in some ways their meaning. Take goth for example. The mainstream stereotype (helped by media) is goth is all about wearing black clothes, lipstick, white skin and hanging out in cemetaries. The reality that goth subculture is rather varied, tied together only by the general terminology of "goth" and so all the other varients of goth such as hippy, punk, fairy, skater, etc become invsible (to outsiders) and the stereotype rules the day (and night). I try not to get too hung up in terminology other than when I'm wanting to do a certain kind of work, I look for models who self identify as alternative or fetish since some of the work that I'm exploring has to do with those realms and I really don't want to be working with a judgemental Christian fundamentalist or someone who thinks freakdom is a bad thing.... Jun 13 05 01:07 pm Link Posted by theda: Posted by ( ANT ) Mgaphoto: So true. Much of photography is about creating an illusion. With the exception of photojournalism, photographers strive to create and depict a situation that isn't real. The fact is when casting directors and ad execs need an alt girl, they usually hit a reputable local agency and find a character model to portray that style. Yeah, the people who are really into that "scene" can usually tell the difference, but the average consumer can't. It seems it's only when the target audience is other freaky people that actual freaky people are sought out for this stuff. I'm sorry but you can always tell when someone has been dressed up to be "alt" and they're really not. Yes i'm in the scene and thats why I can tell, but most of the time people in the scene are the ones looking at the alt photography and its always anoying when you see some barbie girl has been dressed up to look punk or whatever. And its hard to fake mods Jun 13 05 01:20 pm Link How do you know you can always tell? I mean, I hate to apply logic here, but how would you know about the models you *can't* tell about? It's true most of the photographs of alt type models are geared towards an alt type market, but not always. And it's not hard to fake most body mods. A good MUA can certainly create tattoos and scarification, as well as punk/goth/raver types make-up looks. Good quality clip on and magnetic piercings are very often hard to spot unless you have the opportunity to get up close and personal. A truly talented model is an actress and can play multple roles convincingly. The best example I can think of amainstream project that called fro an "alt" type was a cereal commercial in which a man and his punk-ish daughter are eating breakfast together. I could tell she was commercial/character model who had been dressed for a role, but the stylist had done an excellent job. I certainly wouldn't have expected a national ad campaign to waste their time trying to find a punk girl for their ad instead of going to an agency for a dark-haired, fair-skinned model/actress. Posted by Hel Inferna: Jun 13 05 03:49 pm Link Posted by Shyly: oh, and a quick aside...about how people look in real life...two people that I know who engage in what I'd consider extreme fetish, are two of the most boring suburban straight looking people you'd come across. You'd never know by looking at them, or their SUV or upper middle income home depot ikea furnished abode what makes them tick behind closed doors. Jun 13 05 03:57 pm Link When it comes to setting up shoots, it's all about communication. (As always.) No matter how much clarification is provided here or anywhere else, there will always be people out there that assume alt = adult, that goth = fetish, etc. Which is unfortunate. Labels are overrated anyway. Jun 13 05 06:39 pm Link Posted by Hel Inferna: Posted by theda: Posted by ( ANT ) Mgaphoto: So true. Much of photography is about creating an illusion. With the exception of photojournalism, photographers strive to create and depict a situation that isn't real. The fact is when casting directors and ad execs need an alt girl, they usually hit a reputable local agency and find a character model to portray that style. Yeah, the people who are really into that "scene" can usually tell the difference, but the average consumer can't. It seems it's only when the target audience is other freaky people that actual freaky people are sought out for this stuff. I'm sorry but you can always tell when someone has been dressed up to be "alt" and they're really not. Yes i'm in the scene and thats why I can tell, but most of the time people in the scene are the ones looking at the alt photography and its always anoying when you see some barbie girl has been dressed up to look punk or whatever. And its hard to fake mods I don't care who you are or what you are involved with because if you get a talented model, makeup/hair stylist, and a good photographer then it can be easily done. Just turn on your television and you will see people transform everyday, no difference between film and still images. Jun 13 05 08:19 pm Link Posted by Pinky: This is just a stupid statement. Jun 14 05 01:05 am Link Posted by Chanti: Posted by Pinky: This is just a stupid statement. Why is it stupid? Why should we be beating our heads against the wall to try to subdivide ourselves into tinier and tinier groups? Jun 14 05 01:13 am Link So if you looked at my pics would I be considered a fetish photographer or just crazy? In wich case if you say yes then your calling models I work with fetish models and crazy. Next subject. lol Jun 14 05 01:23 am Link Posted by Hel Inferna: "In the scene? Hel, what are you talking about? We both live in PITTSBURGH for pete's sake. There's no SCENE here to be IN. Jun 14 05 07:15 am Link Posted by Chanti: Posted by Pinky: This is just a stupid statement. Yes, you forgot animals like me. Jun 14 05 07:17 am Link Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: Posted by Hel Inferna: hahaha, i meant the alternative scene, or whatever... i am in the scene, meaning... i do not dress like this for photos this is who i am, it is not a costume Jun 17 05 04:30 am Link Just do whatever work your heart tells you to and anyone who is that stressed about whether you used the correct adjective . . . well, if you are being true to your own tastes, the terminology is really an afterthought. Jun 19 05 07:23 pm Link |
