Model
Amber Dawn - Indiana
Posts: 6255
Salem, Indiana, US
So I am curious is there a legal age in Canada and the UK for models who do nude?
Cause I've seen on some photographers sites in those areas where they have female models under 18 who are doing nude or in some very very short mini skirt or have their shirt unbutton wheer you can see the side of the breast. Like here in the usa the model has to be 18+ to do nude work. I also want to know why a photographer would even need to see a little girl in the nude or in such sexy clothing and or posing?
So whats the legal age in Canada and the UK? Or is any age okay?
Photographer
jimmyd
Posts: 1343
Los Angeles, California, US
from dazereader.com: David Hamilton is one of the most commercially successful photographer in the world, a tribute to the enduring popularity of his subject matter, nude adolescent girls. Hamilton has worked in the same vein for nearly four decades, producing grainy, soft-focus images of nude teenage girls in states of hazy reverie accompanied by florid, quasipoetic aphorisms. His published collections include Dreams of a Young Girl, Tender Cousins and Age of Innocence. David Hamilton has also directed a handful of softcore films in the same style, including Bilitis, Laura and Summer in San Tropez. if you want to read more, go to http://www.dazereader.com/davidhamilton.htm
Photographer
- null -
Posts: 4576
Posted by CO Model Amber:
Like here in the usa the model has to be 18+ to do nude work. I also want to know why a photographer would even need to see a little girl in the nude or in such sexy clothing and or posing?
It IS NOT illegal to shoot nudes of underage models. Rather, it is illegal to produce "sexually explicit" material with underage models because THAT is considered "child pornography."
So, there are TWO definitions that must be made clear.
1. Sexually explicit.
2. Child pornography.
According to the United States Code, Title 18, Chapter 110, Section 2256 - "Sexually Explicit" is defined as follows:
"sexually explicit conduct" means actual or simulated--
(A) sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-
genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of
the same or opposite sex;
(B) bestiality;
(C) masturbation;
(D) sadistic or masochistic abuse; or
(E) lascivious exhibition of the genitals or pubic area of
any person;
According to the United States Code, Title 18, Chapter 110, Section 2256 - "Child Pornography" is defined as follows:
"child pornography" means any visual depiction, including
any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-
generated image or picture, whether made or produced by electronic,
mechanical, or other means, of sexually explicit conduct, where--
(A) the production of such visual depiction involves the use
of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct;
(B) such visual depiction is, or appears to be, of a minor
engaging in sexually explicit conduct;
(C) such visual depiction has been created, adapted, or
modified to appear that an identifiable minor is engaging in
sexually explicit conduct; or
(D) such visual depiction is advertised, promoted,
presented, described, or distributed in such a manner that
conveys the impression that the material is or contains a visual
depiction of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct;
--------------------
Note that NOWHERE in there does it say "nudity" in and of itself is illegal.
However, most photographers, myself included, will NOT photograph nudes of anyone under 18 only because the "fine line" is a bit too risky to cross. Because the statement of "lascivious exhibition of the genitals or pubic area of any person" is a bit vague. They could persecute someone pretty easily with that one sentence, just over a vague glimpse of a crotch. Besides, as you said, Amber, why would one need to see that?
Also, note the line - "such visual depiction is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct." THAT is why you always get proof of age when shooting nudes of ANYONE. Because even if your model is 25, all a prosecutor has to say is, "Well, she looked 17 to me." WHAM - You're booked on a crime.
The bizarre thing about sexuality is that the "age of consent" laws vary from state to state. But, the laws governing child pornography are Federal laws.
So, for example, the age of consent in Ohio is 16. Meaning a 16 year old can legally have sexual intercourse with an adult and it is NOT statutory rape ... BUT, if the adult were to photograph the act, that is STILL considered child porn and the adult will go to jail. Weird. But that's the way the laws are worded.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45354
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Posted by Eric Muss-Barnes:
Posted by CO Model Amber:
Like here in the usa the model has to be 18+ to do nude work. I also want to know why a photographer would even need to see a little girl in the nude or in such sexy clothing and or posing?
It IS NOT illegal to shoot nudes of underage models. Rather, it is illegal to produce "sexually explicit" material with underage models because THAT is considered "child pornography."
So, there are TWO definitions that must be made clear.
1. Sexually explicit.
2. Child pornography.
According to the United States Code, Title 18, Chapter 110, Section 2256 - "Sexually Explicit" is defined as follows:
"sexually explicit conduct" means actual or simulated--
(A) sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-
genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of
the same or opposite sex;
(B) bestiality;
(C) masturbation;
(D) sadistic or masochistic abuse; or
(E) lascivious exhibition of the genitals or pubic area of
any person;
According to the United States Code, Title 18, Chapter 110, Section 2256 - "Child Pornography" is defined as follows:
"child pornography" means any visual depiction, including
any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-
generated image or picture, whether made or produced by electronic,
mechanical, or other means, of sexually explicit conduct, where--
(A) the production of such visual depiction involves the use
of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct;
(B) such visual depiction is, or appears to be, of a minor
engaging in sexually explicit conduct;
(C) such visual depiction has been created, adapted, or
modified to appear that an identifiable minor is engaging in
sexually explicit conduct; or
(D) such visual depiction is advertised, promoted,
presented, described, or distributed in such a manner that
conveys the impression that the material is or contains a visual
depiction of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct;
--------------------
Note that NOWHERE in there does it say "nudity" in and of itself is illegal.
However, most photographers, myself included, will NOT photograph nudes of anyone under 18 only because the "fine line" is a bit too risky to cross. Because the statement of "lascivious exhibition of the genitals or pubic area of any person" is a bit vague. They could persecute someone pretty easily with that one sentence, just over a vague glimpse of a crotch. Besides, as you said, Amber, why would one need to see that?
Also, note the line - "such visual depiction is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct." THAT is why you always get proof of age when shooting nudes of ANYONE. Because even if your model is 25, all a prosecutor has to say is, "Well, she looked 17 to me." WHAM - You're booked on a crime.
The bizarre thing about sexuality is that the "age of consent" laws vary from state to state. But, the laws governing child pornography are Federal laws.
So, for example, the age of consent in Ohio is 16. Meaning a 16 year old can legally have sexual intercourse with an adult and it is NOT statutory rape ... BUT, if the adult were to photograph the act, that is STILL considered child porn and the adult will go to jail. Weird. But that's the way the laws are worded. This is all true! The Age Of Consent varies from country to country as well. The Internet has opened up a nasty mind field when there are websites produced in Europe where it is perfectly legal for a 16 year old to pose topless. Something like that might get you in trouble in other places ... depending on local law enforcement.
Also the Janet Jackson wardrobe malfunction would not have raised even an eyebrow in MOST Nations.
Photographer
Impure Angels
Posts: 30
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
It is my understanding that you must be 18 to do nude work in Canada.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45354
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Posted by Impure Angels:
It is my understanding that you must be 18 to do nude work in Canada. Not completely true. The legal Age of Consent in Canada is 14 years old. I know some models who live in Canada that did art nudes at 16 years of age. No one was arrested or charged for it. BUT honestly, I think the question should be WHY would a 16 year of do nudes? Let's talk about that instead.
Photographer
空
Posts: 5264
New York, New York, US
Posted by CO Model Amber:
Cause I've seen on some photographers sites in those areas where they have female models under 18 who are doing nude or in some very very short mini skirt or have their shirt unbutton wheer you can see the side of the breast. Like here in the usa the model has to be 18+ to do nude work. I also want to know why a photographer would even need to see a little girl in the nude or in such sexy clothing and or posing?
Amber, I like many of your questions as of late.
But this seems to be a bit confusing. You ask the question of "why a photographer would even need to see a little girl in the nude or in such sexy clothing and or posing?"
What do you mean by little girl? Do you mean under 18? Or under16? It seems to me you are stating this question about anyone under the age of 18.
You are 20 and you are not exactly an amazon type nor even have a valumptous body in my opinion. If you are twenty and then logically many of your shots were done close your age of 18 or maybe even before.
Many of your shots would fall into this catagory of what you describe in your original question. Yes the legal difintion states that it is different.
But I find it to be a strange view coming from someone with such shots given the fact that many of your shots were done near the age of 18.
On your 18 th birthday did you suddenly change? I am not talking solely about the law for I do not think you addressed the question as such.
You question why anyone would want to see such things but there you are posing for the same type of photos.
Please explain for me?
For maybe for some a little girl is someone under the age of 20.
Photographer
jimmyd
Posts: 1343
Los Angeles, California, US
Posted by Patrick Walberg:
I know some models who live in Canada that did art nudes at 16 years of age. No one was arrested or charged for it. BUT honestly, I think the question should be WHY would a 16 year of do nudes? Let's talk about that instead. you kind of answered your own question: they posed for ART nudes. ART does not concern itself with age. F. Gump might say, "Art is as art does." Is it possible to shoot a naked 16-year-old without the image appealing to prurient interests? i think so. Sure, there are some who are going to see it as masturbation material, but there are many, many more who can and will appreciate it for it's artistic expression.
Should we put legal limitations on art because some--perhaps a small minority--would see it as sexually appealing? Maybe that should be the question?
Photographer
空
Posts: 5264
New York, New York, US
Another thing to think about on the topic only is that in Pennsylvannia the age of consent is confusing. It might be 18 or it might be 21.
There was a long thread on OMP about the legal question of what is the legal age in that state. Is it legal to work out of state with such a model?
Photographer
Impure Angels
Posts: 30
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
The age of consent for sex is 14, unless you are a gay male, then it is 18. From everything that I have studied, you must be 18 to pose nude.
Child pornography: "a photographic, film, video or other visual representation, whether or not it was made by electronic or mechanical means (i) that shows a person who is or is depicted as being under the age of 18 years and is engaged in or is depicted as engaged in explicit sexual activity or (ii) the dominant characteristic of which is the depiction, for a sexual purpose, of a sexual organ or the anal region of a person under the age of 18 years" -- Criminal Code of Canada, Section 163.1 (1)
There was an interesting legal case in our city recently involving a 56 yr old man that was caught with photos of 14 year old girls. He argued that if they were old enough to legally consent to sex, then they were old enough to be photographed.
Also there is a big scandal right now because one of the more famous people in our city has a son that was caught filming 14 yr old girls and is now being charged with child pornography.
Regardless, even if it is lowered, all of our models will be at least 18 or they won't be working with us!
As for 16 year olds posing nude, it makes me very sad.
Photographer
空
Posts: 5264
New York, New York, US
Some guy in New Hampshire was just arrested and it was announced tonight. He brought his film to a photolab and got busted.
I will write more when I am sure of the details. I do not like to write "I think I heard" when it concerns such things. But then I do not trust the press either.
Model
Amber Dawn - Indiana
Posts: 6255
Salem, Indiana, US
Posted by marksora:
Posted by CO Model Amber:
Cause I've seen on some photographers sites in those areas where they have female models under 18 who are doing nude or in some very very short mini skirt or have their shirt unbutton wheer you can see the side of the breast. Like here in the usa the model has to be 18+ to do nude work. I also want to know why a photographer would even need to see a little girl in the nude or in such sexy clothing and or posing?
Amber, I like many of your questions as of late.
But this seems to be a bit confusing. You ask the question of "why a photographer would even need to see a little girl in the nude or in such sexy clothing and or posing?"
What do you mean by little girl? Do you mean under 18? Or under16? It seems to me you are stating this question about anyone under the age of 18.
You are 20 and you are not exactly an amazon type nor even have a valumptous body in my opinion. If you are twenty and then logically many of your shots were done close your age of 18 or maybe even before.
Many of your shots would fall into this catagory of what you describe in your original question. Yes the legal difintion states that it is different.
But I find it to be a strange view coming from someone with such shots given the fact that many of your shots were done near the age of 18.
On your 18 th birthday did you suddenly change? I am not talking solely about the law for I do not think you addressed the question as such.
You question why anyone would want to see such things but there you are posing for the same type of photos.
Please explain for me?
For maybe for some a little girl is someone under the age of 20. I started modeling when I was 18 (and not on my birthday) :Laughing: but didn't start doing lingerie/nude/sexy clothing until maybe late 19 and now when I'm 20 and I'm almost 21. Even though most people think I look 16. Most of my pictures are actually from 2004 and 2005 when I was 19 and 20 so past my 18th birthday.
Yes my question was for models under 18.
Sorry If I didn't state my question clearly.
Model
Amber Dawn - Indiana
Posts: 6255
Salem, Indiana, US
"You are 20 and you are not exactly an amazon type nor even have a valumptous body in my opinion. If you are twenty and then logically many of your shots were done close your age of 18 or maybe even before."
Not even sure why you brong this up. Looks/body type had nothing to do with it. Sure I'm not the hottest female in the world sure my body is not perfect. But I eat what I want when I want and don't have to worry about it. I know I'm skinny but I am not THAT skinny that you can see my bones. I don't even work out! Use to but not anymore. I'm very proud of my body! If someone dosn't like it, oh well not my problem.
Wont be suprised if this post gets locked! Grrr!
Photographer
空
Posts: 5264
New York, New York, US
Amber I got your question but you wrote the original thread in such a way to make judgement on why people want to see such things.
But there you are with pics that look like you are under 18 or even younger.
Model
Amber Dawn - Indiana
Posts: 6255
Salem, Indiana, US
I might LOOK IT but all my shots are from 18 and up.
Photographer
- null -
Posts: 4576
Posted by CO Model Amber:
I might LOOK IT but all my shots are from 18 and up. Go read my original reply.
It is possible for a photographer to get in trouble for sexually explicit photos JUST BECAUSE the model "appears" to be underage. This is why STRICT records are kept in the porn industry and why adult sites and videos all have the disclaimer that "everyone depicted was 18 or over." That way, no one can come back and say, "They look underage."
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45354
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Posted by jimmyd:
Posted by Patrick Walberg:
I know some models who live in Canada that did art nudes at 16 years of age. No one was arrested or charged for it. BUT honestly, I think the question should be WHY would a 16 year of do nudes? Let's talk about that instead. you kind of answered your own question: they posed for ART nudes. ART does not concern itself with age. F. Gump might say, "Art is as art does." Is it possible to shoot a naked 16-year-old without the image appealing to prurient interests? i think so. Sure, there are some who are going to see it as masturbation material, but there are many, many more who can and will appreciate it for it's artistic expression.
Should we put legal limitations on art because some--perhaps a small minority--would see it as sexually appealing? Maybe that should be the question?
It is true that for work classified as "Art" ... nudity is ok at any age. The battle lines get drawn as to whose opinion says it's "Art." I see no easy answer to this!
My opinion is that we need freedom to express with art, and I hope that it is possible to keep that freedom without government involvement. But some people ABUSE this freedom and cause problems when it comes to what defines "Art" and this is not a problem that will be easily resolved anytime soon ... if ever!
No, I do not want see legal limitations as being needed for the minority who abuse the definition to meet their own needs for masturbation material.
Photographer
Hugh Jorgen
Posts: 2850
Ashland, Oregon, US
What if she is 18 and looks 13..
Dang we could get everyone up in arms..lol
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45354
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Posted by Impure Angels:
The age of consent for sex is 14, unless you are a gay male, then it is 18. From everything that I have studied, you must be 18 to pose nude.
Child pornography: "a photographic, film, video or other visual representation, whether or not it was made by electronic or mechanical means (i) that shows a person who is or is depicted as being under the age of 18 years and is engaged in or is depicted as engaged in explicit sexual activity or (ii) the dominant characteristic of which is the depiction, for a sexual purpose, of a sexual organ or the anal region of a person under the age of 18 years" -- Criminal Code of Canada, Section 163.1 (1)
There was an interesting legal case in our city recently involving a 56 yr old man that was caught with photos of 14 year old girls. He argued that if they were old enough to legally consent to sex, then they were old enough to be photographed.
Also there is a big scandal right now because one of the more famous people in our city has a son that was caught filming 14 yr old girls and is now being charged with child pornography.
Regardless, even if it is lowered, all of our models will be at least 18 or they won't be working with us!
As for 16 year olds posing nude, it makes me very sad. I said the question is "WHY" is the 16 year old posing nude? To elaborate more ... what I mean is that if the 16 year old is posing for fine art nudity, then I have NO PROBLEM with it personally. If the 16 year old is doing sexually explicit images that are within the defination of pornographic, then "YES" that is illegal! Filming 14 year olds having sex is NOT "ART NUDES" now is it? If he was filming 14 year olds changing clothes, then that is an invasion of privacy issue. Still NOT Art nudity! Why is it not clear to you that there is a diference between for example, David Hamiltons work vs. some punk son of a Senator filming 14 years while having sex? It's comparing Oranges to Apples! NOT THE SAME THING!
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45354
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Posted by marksora:
Another thing to think about on the topic only is that in Pennsylvannia the age of consent is confusing. It might be 18 or it might be 21.
There was a long thread on OMP about the legal question of what is the legal age in that state. Is it legal to work out of state with such a model? Why is the "Age of Consent" important? That has to do with having SEX. You are not planning to have sex with these models, right? If not, then photographing teens nude is legal. Go to any Barnes and Noble bookstore and check out the photography books under names like Sturges and Hamilton. You will find photos that are considered art nudes of teens. It's NOT illegal!
Model
Amber Dawn - Indiana
Posts: 6255
Salem, Indiana, US
Why is age important? I just don't understand why a photographer needs to see lets say a 14 girl naked and doing very sexy poses. Why a parent would allow this I will never understand.
Let's step away from "art" I am speaking SEXY POSING showing everything their chest and there kitty.
Lets say you had a ummm a 14 year daughter or even younger who wanted to pose very sexy/explict nude in this case for a photographer? would you allow her to do so?
Model
A BRITT PRO-AM
Posts: 7840
CARDIFF BY THE SEA, California, US
Also the Janet Jackson wardrobe malfunction would not have raised even an eyebrow in MOST Nations.
YES
BUT WE LAUGH AT YOU GUYS BEING PRUDISH (ON ONE HAND AND SORDID ON THE OTHER)!! lol
LOVE YOU!
ps
THE BODY AND THE USE OF THE BODY IS THE 2 DIF THINGS...
simpering children nude, sucking their fingers and pouting is child porn to me whether or not they showing any sexual parts.
Then again I despise the gals that pose like that as well, especially as they know what its for. Its just vulgar! I'm like a lot of English people here.. prefer you get on and do the porn if you want to - over 21 - land of the free and all that!
Photographer
Aaron_H
Posts: 1355
Ann Arbor, Michigan, US
Posted by CO Model Amber:
Why is age important? I just don't understand why a photographer needs to see lets say a 14 girl naked and doing very sexy poses. Why a parent would allow this I will never understand.
Let's step away from "art" I am speaking SEXY POSING showing everything their chest and there kitty.
Lets say you had a ummm a 14 year daughter or even younger who wanted to pose very sexy/explict nude in this case for a photographer? would you allow her to do so?
Amber, he asked about "age of consent" and you reply by asking "why is age important?" as if that's what he asked! Maybe you're just not familiar what age of consent is, it's the age at which a person is allowed to legally consent to having sex. It has nothing whatsoever to do with photography or what age anything can or can't be done in terms of photographing minors. It would have been better if no one had brought it up in this context just because this problem of people not reading carefully or comprehending what they read is so prevalent and it was bound to confuse the issue even though I agree with the observation about the irony of differences between the age of consent and the age laws concerning photography.
Photographer
空
Posts: 5264
New York, New York, US
Posted by Patrick Walberg:
Posted by marksora:
Another thing to think about on the topic only is that in Pennsylvannia the age of consent is confusing. It might be 18 or it might be 21.
There was a long thread on OMP about the legal question of what is the legal age in that state. Is it legal to work out of state with such a model? Why is the "Age of Consent" important? That has to do with having SEX. You are not planning to have sex with these models, right? If not, then photographing teens nude is legal. Go to any Barnes and Noble bookstore and check out the photography books under names like Sturges and Hamilton. You will find photos that are considered art nudes of teens. It's NOT illegal! If it stops businesses and people from working with models then it HAS an effect. This is the thread on OMP. You need to be a member to read it, I believe. http://member.onemodelplace.com/newforu … nsylvannia
This was the original question posted there by someone else having a question on the issues,
I have recently been asked to shoot for several girls who want to submit pics to a site called suicidegirls. This has brought up an interesting question though. On their site they state the following:
IMPORTANT: Please make sure your local laws allow you to pose nude before applying. Usually you must be 18 years of age or older to apply. If you are in Alabama you must be 19 or older. If you are in Mississippi, Nebraska, Pennsylvania, or Puerto Rico you must be 21 or older.
Is this really accurate that you must be 21 or older to shoot nudes in PA? Or is this more something that is just for this site? Is there a difference from this type of nudes as opposed to artistic nudes?
I have to be honest this is the first that I have ever heard of this and always thought it was 18. If this law is so there are probably a lot of people breaking it because I see a lot of 18 and 19 nudes?
Let me know if anyone has heard of this before, has worked with this site before, or any other useful info.
Also to note I even found two girls on their site listed from PA that were 20, so what does that say?
The whole thing is sooo messed up. Under the age of majority policy it states that a "minor" is anyone under the age of 21. If you look under sexual crimes its states a minor is anyone under 16. If you look under decency laws about photographs of nudity a "minor" is anyone under the age of 18.
It's just crazy. No wonder so many people get arrested, who the hell can understand all the laws.
(that was a quote I found on the issue from another site)
Photographer
空
Posts: 5264
New York, New York, US
Then I asked this question.
"Would that apply to a pennsylvannia resident being shot in another state?
Since she would likely bring the photos back home to pennsylvannia with her."
And the question got this response from a third person addressing the issues.
=="I'm guessing here, and perhaps someone can expand, but if a shoot took place in, say, New York and the release was signed in New York when the model was 18, I believe New York law applies and it would be valid even though the model were a resident of Pennsylvania. It's not absolutely clear to me that the release would be valid in Pennsylvania, although I believe it would be.
I'd also guess that if a NYC resident who was 18 years old went to Pennsylvania and did a shoot, that PA law would apply and the release would not be valid, at least in PA and perhaps NY. This makes my head hurt - I've never personally encountered the issue, so haven't had to work through it.
The closest I have come to the issue was when I worked with a NJ ad agency which required that the models be 21 to sign a release, even though both NJ and NY law allow it at 18. They weren't interested in explaining their logic ("our legal office requires it, just do it") but I'd imagine it's because NJ and PA are adjoining states, and they were covering themselves against the possibility of a PA model. Again, that's a guess. In that situation I told them that I had power of attorney from the models who were under 21 (I did - they had given it to me) and the ad agency allowed me to sign the releases for them, even though the POAs were granted by the model themselves. It's not clear to me how they could sign a valid POA for me to sign a release for them, and not be able to sign a valid release, but I suspect the pogues in the ad agency didn't want to ask too many questions and were happy to escape the situation with an apparent, even if not real, solution.
Sometimes this business doesn't make sense."
Photographer
空
Posts: 5264
New York, New York, US
Posted by Aaron_H:
.......what age of consent is, it's the age at which a person is allowed to legally consent to having sex. It has nothing whatsoever to do with photography or what age anything can or can't be done in terms of photographing minors. It would have been better if no one had brought it up in this context just because this problem of people not reading carefully or comprehending what they read is so prevalent and it was bound to confuse the issue even though I agree with the observation about the irony of differences between the age of consent and the age laws concerning photography. I did read the post and it does matter as I have listed above. When it changes the actions of those in the business then It does have something to do with the business and practices of photography.
Photographer
空
Posts: 5264
New York, New York, US
Posted by CO Model Amber:
Why is age important? I just don't understand why a photographer needs to see lets say a 14 girl naked and doing very sexy poses. Why a parent would allow this I will never understand.
Let's step away from "art" I am speaking SEXY POSING showing everything their chest and there kitty.
Lets say you had a ummm a 14 year daughter or even younger who wanted to pose very sexy/explict nude in this case for a photographer? would you allow her to do so?
Amber which is it with you? 18 or 16 or 14 that you have a problem with. I just showed your images to five people at the diner where the crew was having a breakfast meeting. Two of my crew are in the business and three were not with us nor in the business, three said you looked younger than 14 and one said 16 and the other said 19.
I get your point but it just goes to show you how confusing this issue is in present day America.
If you are so offended by the thought of people looking at images of girls who are or look young then why show the images that you do show. Many models younger than you, look older than you. Is it the appearence or the actual age that is the issue with you?
I am confused.
Photographer
XtremeArtists
Posts: 9122
Posted by CO Model Amber:
Why is age important? I just don't understand why a photographer needs to see lets say a 14 girl naked and doing very sexy poses.
You have used the phrase "why the photographer need to see" a couple of times in this thread.
A GWC needs to see girls in states of undress, a photographer needs to photograph them.
Photographer
Aaron_H
Posts: 1355
Ann Arbor, Michigan, US
Posted by marksora:
Posted by Aaron_H:
.......what age of consent is, it's the age at which a person is allowed to legally consent to having sex. It has nothing whatsoever to do with photography or what age anything can or can't be done in terms of photographing minors. It would have been better if no one had brought it up in this context just because this problem of people not reading carefully or comprehending what they read is so prevalent and it was bound to confuse the issue even though I agree with the observation about the irony of differences between the age of consent and the age laws concerning photography. I did read the post and it does matter as I have listed above. When it changes the actions of those in the business then It does have something to do with the business and practices of photography. Mark, your post is doubly ironic since you're responding to a post in which I'm addressing the issue making improper replies due to not reading carefully....
I was talking to Amber, who was responding to Patrick.... and I was addressing the fact that she confused his question about age of consent with why him asking why age would matter in certain kinds of photography... it's not that hard to follow is it? Aside from that, it still sounds like you're saying the age of consent has something to do with all this, how does the age of consent change the actions of those in the business in terms of photography? Are you still confusing the term "age of consent" with being able to consent to certain photos or the legality of certain photos?
Photographer
Doug Harvey
Posts: 1055
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
OK...So here in my two cents worth...
Having lived in Europe for several years, I can tell you that the people over there are not so hung-up on the nude body or "OH GOSH! They said sex". If it's a picture of an 11 year old, then you are going to get some head turning and disdain about it. If it is a picture of a 16 year old that has her top unbuttoned or something like that, nobody is even going to think about it or care and will probably stand around and discuss it with other people in casual conversation.
Now on to something else that has alreay been said in this tread...There is a MAJOR difference between porn and female form...If someone thinks that a nude body is porn, then they need to spend some time in the dictionary. Art is art and raw porn is porn...Pretty simple...
Photographer
XtremeArtists
Posts: 9122
It is a shame that a photo of a beautiful hand is treated differently than the photo of a beautiful breast.
It's the result of the Protestants. That's why North America is a moral crapfest with a great value system: sex is taboo; the human body is sinful; fill the movies with corpses, guns, fights, and violence.
Brilliant!
Photographer
- null -
Posts: 4576
Posted by marksora:
The whole thing is sooo messed up. Under the age of majority policy it states that a "minor" is anyone under the age of 21. If you look under sexual crimes its states a minor is anyone under 16. If you look under decency laws about photographs of nudity a "minor" is anyone under the age of 18.
It's just crazy. No wonder so many people get arrested, who the hell can understand all the laws.
Easy to avoid by following one simple rule:
Do not have sexual intercourse OR shoot nude photos of anyone under the age of 18.
I know that is NOT the law and the laws are confusing. But if by your own personal code of conduct you follow that rule, you won't get arrested.
Photographer
Doug Harvey
Posts: 1055
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Eric...Xtreme...You both are right on the money...That's why we all fly to the UK to look at art and photograph nakid women...lol
Photographer
Hugh Jorgen
Posts: 2850
Ashland, Oregon, US
Im gonna go shoot some nudes of my 4 year old model Gracie!!
Oh did i mention Gracie is my Pacific pond turtle!!
Wouldny want ya to get to uptight!!
(:---
Photographer
空
Posts: 5264
New York, New York, US
Back to the original question which is what I have been framing my answers to all along.
Not first hand, posted in public by a agency owner.
In reference to me questioning someone else on the subject of images being sent to photographers in America.
"As recently as a year ago it was fully legal for girls as young as 16 to pose for nude glamour pictures, and many did so. Read: "underage" in the UK meant "under 16". This girl is 17 now, she was 16 then, and there is no issue of legality, nor (given the laws and customs of the time) propriety in the UK.
In its wisdom, Parliament changed the law last year to reflect the American judgment that anyone a day short of their 18th birthday is mentally deficient."
The model in question was 17 and has stated she modeled for 3 years prior so I disagree with some of the logic stated but more to consider.
Not sure if it is true but when are we ever sure of anything.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45354
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Posted by CO Model Amber:
Why is age important? I just don't understand why a photographer needs to see lets say a 14 girl naked and doing very sexy poses. Why a parent would allow this I will never understand.
Let's step away from "art" I am speaking SEXY POSING showing everything their chest and there kitty.
Lets say you had a ummm a 14 year daughter or even younger who wanted to pose very sexy/explict nude in this case for a photographer? would you allow her to do so?
I agree with you Amber. But I have no problem with "Art" poses which are NOT the same thing as the "sexy posing" you speak of. There is a big difference between provocative poses and art poses. You do know that, don't you?
I would not "let" my 14 year old duaghter pose in sexually provocative images either while nude OR with clothes on. BUT you'd be surprised at how many 14 year olds are shooting naughty pictures of themselves behind the backs of their parents!
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45354
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Posted by Aaron_H:
Posted by CO Model Amber:
Why is age important? I just don't understand why a photographer needs to see lets say a 14 girl naked and doing very sexy poses. Why a parent would allow this I will never understand.
Let's step away from "art" I am speaking SEXY POSING showing everything their chest and there kitty.
Lets say you had a ummm a 14 year daughter or even younger who wanted to pose very sexy/explict nude in this case for a photographer? would you allow her to do so?
Amber, he asked about "age of consent" and you reply by asking "why is age important?" as if that's what he asked! Maybe you're just not familiar what age of consent is, it's the age at which a person is allowed to legally consent to having sex. It has nothing whatsoever to do with photography or what age anything can or can't be done in terms of photographing minors. It would have been better if no one had brought it up in this context just because this problem of people not reading carefully or comprehending what they read is so prevalent and it was bound to confuse the issue even though I agree with the observation about the irony of differences between the age of consent and the age laws concerning photography. THANK YOU, for explaining that! I am amazed how many get confused as to Age of Consent laws vs pornography laws!
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45354
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Posted by marksora:
Posted by Aaron_H:
.......what age of consent is, it's the age at which a person is allowed to legally consent to having sex. It has nothing whatsoever to do with photography or what age anything can or can't be done in terms of photographing minors. It would have been better if no one had brought it up in this context just because this problem of people not reading carefully or comprehending what they read is so prevalent and it was bound to confuse the issue even though I agree with the observation about the irony of differences between the age of consent and the age laws concerning photography. I did read the post and it does matter as I have listed above. When it changes the actions of those in the business then It does have something to do with the business and practices of photography. Mark, if you are not having sex with these minors, then you are not breaking any federal laws. There are many State and local laws regarding photography of minors that IF taken to the Federal Courts are often thrown out.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45354
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Posted by Hugh Jorgen ©:
Im gonna go shoot some nudes of my 4 year old model Gracie!!
Oh did i mention Gracie is my Pacific pond turtle!!
Wouldny want ya to get to uptight!!
(:--- ROFLMAO!! That's why I love you Hugh! Are you going to shared these pictures with me? I'll trade some naked pictures of my cat! That's a real pussy! LOL
Photographer
空
Posts: 5264
New York, New York, US
Posted by CO Model Amber:
So I am curious is there a legal age in Canada and the UK for models who do nude?
Cause I've seen on some photographers sites in those areas where they have female models under 18 who are doing nude or in some very very short mini skirt or have their shirt unbutton wheer you can see the side of the breast. Like here in the usa the model has to be 18+ to do nude work. I also want to know why a photographer would even need to see a little girl in the nude or in such sexy clothing and or posing?
So whats the legal age in Canada and the UK? Or is any age okay?
This will likely be my last post on this thread.
First, Amber. I was not trying to make fun of you or point out your faults. In my opinion stating that you are not a volumptous amazon type model is the same as stating that you are not Asian or blond. It just is. You stated that you often looked under 18.
I was addressing your original comments and references to why people and specifically photographers want to see something that you portray yourself.
Eric,
Yes, (Addressing the issue and not you directly on this one but using the 18 for sex and nudes as a simple rule.)
I do use that rule of 18 for both but I try to live my life so that I am not afraid of things. But If I ever have to go to court then I could win without needed to hire a lawyer. I do not want to have to prove it with shades of grey.
Patrick Walberg,
I responded to the direction of the thread. I was not the first to post on the issue of age of consent. You actually addressed it before I did. I think Eric was the first but I do not think it really matters.
In response to Aaron, I stated
"I did read the post and it does matter as I have listed above. When it changes the actions of those in the business then It does have something to do with the business and practices of photography."
I was refering to the fact that agencies, clients, and businesses do think about this issue. If most of the people have got it wrong, well that is still an issue to deal with.
I am no legal expert and I was just trying to through ideas out there based on the direction of the thread.
You state that "There are many State and local laws regarding photography of minors that IF taken to the Federal Courts are often thrown out. "
Well I do not know about you but I would not want to spend a few years having my life ruined until the case got thrown out on the federal level.
If sites like suicidegirls and other businesses are concerned then It is effecting the industry.
===
I just some personal notes but this is not about my personal beliefs. In short, Yes America is prudish.
I see the issue as educating ourselves on the confusion of society in general including my own to the legal issues.
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