Photographer
Andrew Gettler
Posts: 126
Pueblo, Colorado, US
L()L love it.. its all about MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY... he/she whom hold the money holds all the cards in the game... WONDERFUL!
I hate money and I hate the corruption it has on everyone. Yet, because of the way Society has changed and 'evolved' we need money for everything.
tfp. I don't do tfp.. realisticly I do tfcd, yes Trade for Compact Disk.
I love Photography, and I love shooting people and nature and allkinds of strange crap. But mostly I love the art behind hit. Granted, you may look at my port and think its not worthy of 'pay' but ya know what.. thats ok.. someone else might...
but as far as working with models to trade services... I will most likely always do it because of my respect for art and all its forms. Granted some work i have done was utter crap.. but it was fun and I learnt things from it. You never stop learning.. less you close your mind and shoot the same stuff over and over and over again. than you just become a product.. and if thats what you want.. so be it.. have fun.
Im an artist, granted Im not nearly at the level I would like to be at.. but Im trying.. and in my current situation.. this is what im doing.. exactly. Im trying to improve myself.. and help someone along the way. When I shoot TFCD I take the model out to lunch at least. along with the disk of images. Most all the images. if they have the time to wait they get everything if they have to leave I will remove the absolute very worst before sending the disk.
I always tell the models also, if there is anything they would like edited or whatnot.. just let me know.
I don't do it for t/a, you can download that by the tetrabit,
I am not independently wealthy, tell ya the truth, im as broke as a joke. I don't have a regular job, im a disabled vet, Im new to this area only been here a couple months now. yet, I love photography, and always want to shoot something. and I love being able to help someone out. even if it is just a couple hours of time and a CD i use. because if it can help them.. great... If not, Im sorry and hope you least learnt something.
Im fairly easy going, although very opinionated,
but, im not gonna say I will turn down money ither.. if someone has money they want to throw my direction, I will keep it. Less of course its someone scrapping change from under the seat to pay some fee. thats BS. I know what its like to be poorer than dirt, and I know what its like to be 'MADE' to pay somekinda fee for some bullcrap. I don't like it. But I also know what it feels like when someone helps ya out for nothing.
so currently and for the rest of my life, I will do TFCD. not constantly, because there are things that will pay the bills.
as for those whom choose not to do it. To each their own. You may be missing out on something great... maybe just a learning experance, maybe just meeting someone new.. good or bad, everything introduced to use we learn from.
be carefull of the wierdos is all i gotta say.
Photographer
J Merrill Images
Posts: 1412
Harvey, Illinois, US
I am not steamed but I find this thread to be like alot of other threads here - somewhat lacking in understanding that there is a wide variety of motivation for what people do in their lives. If a particular mode of working fits one person's needs but does not fit someone else's so be it. We do not owe one another anything other than our good graces.
I also find it interesting that so many seem to be unhappy about the concept of a person doing something for value that doesn't happen to be monetary. TFP/CD is an exchange of value between the parties and it provides something that each feel they need. Some may do too much of it in the eyes of others and some may do too little but, once again, it is not up to the rest of us to pronounce the arrangement to be proper or not.
Since it is a related field, I would suggest that folks here take a look at the movie business. Doing things for value other than money during one's "newbie" period is not only common, it's pretty much the norm. For those that have the wisdom (and the ability to find other ways to survive financially) to accept unpaid or low paying assignments for awhile, the payoff can be great - REALLY GREAT!
I will say, however, that I like Alan's comment's (as I usually do) because he has responded in a thoughtful way that makes sense for someone in his situation. He has developed his business to a point where it is more efficient for him to pay models when he wants to work on a private project. By doing so he eliminates a lot of the time wasting aspects of a typical TFP/CD shoot and better utilizes that time which, at this point in his career, is of more value to him than the dollars that he puts in someone's purse or pocket. I, on the other hand, have done mostly TFCD shoots and the fact of the matter is that we are BOTH right.
Photographer
Lochai
Posts: 4
Sunrise, Florida, US
Paul Brecht wrote:
I think many people put "sorry, not accepting tfp/cd right now, except w/ exceptional photographers who can add to my portfolio", simply to weed out the hundreds of emails that say "wanna tfp/cd ???"
If they are hitting you up, then it's a different deal, either they pay you, or like Alan said, you make a decision to do it tfp/cd...
When they put this on their portfolio page, it gives them an easy way out of having to decline someone's work that they don't want to do. I mean, it's more polite to say, "sorry, didn't you see that I'm not doing tfp/cd right now ???", rather than, "get lost jerk, I don't want to shoot w/ you - your portfolio sucks"... Ok, now that's 2 extremes & there are many fine answers inbetween, but it does make it easier for models (who probably get hit up 20x's more than photographers) to decline w/ an easy escape, w/o being on the crass side of things...
It can backfire though, if they want to get a lot of new images, practice, etc., but hey, that's their decision - right ???
Paul
Photographer
Halcyon 7174 NYC
Posts: 20109
New York, New York, US
Nikki S. wrote:
i like it when the model has bad TFP photos or better yet webcam pics and say "no tfp, only accepting paid assignments". Young Pam Anderson probably could have gotten away with webcam pics as a portfolio, but most of the models I see on here cannot.
House of Indulgence wrote:
So YES to TFP. But only to LIMITED TFP. The difference is huge. f-alan wrote:
Very good post. I agree, good post.
ChrisChris wrote:
Art requires some portions of intellect but above all it requires heart, soul and a strong urge to change things and to say something to others. If you're going to go that far you might as well just say art requires passion and guts and gallons of blood.
Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
For you, photography is about taking pictures, not making a living. Those with uninspiring pictures aren't making a living either. Their level of satisfaction is something else. I do it to grow as an artist and to make a living. What is that satisfaction?
A. H A M I L T O N wrote:
Certainly your qualified to judge the community as a whole then? I make no such claim to qualification, but measured qualification and responsibility are often unrelated because people who work to be qualified are usually not inherently responsible, only blocked from taking power where they would be. Didn't you see the Dickens quote?
Mary wrote:
you're making an assumption that people are not working at paid jobs and rather sitting around....most people that wont do unpaid testing I assume have real paid work... I'm not making either of those assumptions.
Mary wrote:
When one works full time in the business for pay would that be considered constant practice or would they still need to do TFP in your opinion? If the client knows photography and is giving you challenging assignments and listens to you about what you think you need to work on, that could be enough, but it is, as I understand it, an opportunity more rare than gold. I think if you are working all the time and not getting down time and time to just play with unproven ideas, even if you're really good, you're going to get stale and your work will become stagnant and cease to benefit you as a person until you take that kind of break.
BTW, I really don't like the abreviations "TFP" and "TFCD." I usually say "test" in conversation.
Photographer
American Glamour
Posts: 38813
Detroit, Michigan, US
DigitalCMH wrote:
I'm getting tired of all the threads people start bitching about TFP. Honestly, what OTHER people do is really no one else's businesses. But some people here, not necessarily in this thread but in the past, always sound so angry. Like other people are ruining the industry. It's not being ruined, it's changing. Just like auto-workers getting replaced by machinery. You either adapt to it or not. Whining won't get you anywhere. Alan, you seem to have most the wisdom around here and it's great that you share it. Hopefully those that don't understand will finally understand. But there will be those that...well, they are always looking for their cheese.  Thank you for the kind words. I hate these threads because they single out one aspect of the craft and make it appear that it is better or worse.
I work in this business because it is my living. I am not ashamed of it. TFP is inappropriate for me.
For others though, it is a good thing. We often forget that photography is a form of art, and while everyone isn't always talented, everyone is entitled to express themselves. Beyond that, everyone is entitled to try.
I saw a comment about someone's images being uninspiring. All that says is that their images are uninspiring today. It says nothing of what their images will be next week, next month or next year. People improve and TFP is a way to develop your craft.
The missing word in some of these threads is "tolerance."
Photographer
terminated user
Posts: 520
Henderson, Nevada, US
Right now all I can afford to do is TFPCD - I simply ask the model if they are okay with it or not - If not - no problem, doesn't hurt to ask - If they are fine with it, we shoot some great photos and hopefully help build portfolios on both sides to further a career.
Photographer
Lochai
Posts: 4
Sunrise, Florida, US
You make some wonderful points here. This is how I work. I am a fine art photographer first. I do TFP with models that I think would fit into my projects visually. I show my work in galleries across the country & on my website. I am a commercial photographer second. If a client hires me to shoot & they want a certain look for the model they go thru my book & either pick a model or a look. If they pay me I pay my model. I have ha many models look at my fine art work & say that they want to add my look to their portfolio. If I feel that their look will fit with my "vision" I will offer TFP but if I do not feel that way I offer them my rates. I have worked with some pro models that display No TFP or limited TFP that I have either contacted with an offer to work together. They view my work & either accept or decline. No problem. Then I have others who contact me & offer to work TFP even though they "never" do so. The meshing of desires & final outcomes is what will cause me to ask for/offer compensation or to aks for/offer TFP. Basically, If I want their look, I ask them, if the want my look, they ask me. It needs to be a win - win situation. Paul Brecht wrote:
I think many people put "sorry, not accepting tfp/cd right now, except w/ exceptional photographers who can add to my portfolio", simply to weed out the hundreds of emails that say "wanna tfp/cd ???"
If they are hitting you up, then it's a different deal, either they pay you, or like Alan said, you make a decision to do it tfp/cd...
When they put this on their portfolio page, it gives them an easy way out of having to decline someone's work that they don't want to do. I mean, it's more polite to say, "sorry, didn't you see that I'm not doing tfp/cd right now ???", rather than, "get lost jerk, I don't want to shoot w/ you - your portfolio sucks"... Ok, now that's 2 extremes & there are many fine answers inbetween, but it does make it easier for models (who probably get hit up 20x's more than photographers) to decline w/ an easy escape, w/o being on the crass side of things...
It can backfire though, if they want to get a lot of new images, practice, etc., but hey, that's their decision - right ???
Paul
Model
Iona Lynn
Posts: 11176
Oakland, California, US
A. H A M I L T O N wrote:
Because I see people who say that on their profiles and their work is uninspired drivel. Yup, so do I, on photographers portfolios all the time.
By putting my clause in my portfolio it does slow down the number of requests I get. Trust me I still do TFP
Wed: TFP(The images WILL be in my book and online they are great)
Thurs: Meeting for paid project lead to possibly more paid work
Sat: Paid shoot(yea for good money),meeting for TFP
Sun: TFP(The images will be in my online port and maybe in book).
Mon SLEEP!!!!!!
But if I don't think the photographer has the caliber to get the images in my online port why would I shoot? Hrm they do need the practice...
Photographer
American Glamour
Posts: 38813
Detroit, Michigan, US
Have I ever told everyone how kewl Iona Lynn is in real life?
Photographer
Andrew Gettler
Posts: 126
Pueblo, Colorado, US
Iona Lynn wrote:
By putting my clause in my portfolio it does slow down the number of requests I get. Trust me I still do TFP and for this simple reason alone, I do not contact anyone whom has anything other than will do TFCD on there proff, or nothing at all. If I see, limited or none, I pass the model by. I wish others would do the same.
Nothing against the models mind you, just out of respect. If all I can offer is TFCD, im not going to hit up a model no matter how 'well' i think her look will fit my idea. Good or bad on my part? i don't know, but its not my way. I try to make myself known.. let them look at my port and desided for themselves.
Love it or leave it.. its all part of Art and 'Art Hurts' - Rob Zombie - 30 days of Hell- making of Devils Rejects.
guess it all boils down to common curtesy which isn't to common, and respect. which also lacks very much on the net.
one bad apple ruins the bunch... what about a dozen bad apples? to many idiots out there tring to cheat people mess up us little people trying to get in.
Photographer
Doug Harvey
Posts: 1055
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
So I guess I need to stick my big nose in here and say a couple of words about TFCD too.
I do it. I feel that if a model is just starting out, then like the most of america, she/he is not making a large salery and cannot afford a commercial grade portfolio, but her/his will to try modeling is there and if the attitude is good, then why not. Takes a couple of hours to get some shots and a couple more editing, if needed and all done. Spend the 20 cents for a CD and 2 bucks for mailing if needed.
I think the big difference in the way that TFCD/Prints has evolved is that many photographers find it a way to get resque or nude images so that other photographers will pay attention to them. Or as everyone else states here, a gwc.
Personally, I do TFCD with models, commercial product and have a full time job, so I can go whatever direction I feel like.
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 54196
Buena Park, California, US
ChristianBehr wrote:
Okay... those of you who love the tfp arrangement, get your sneakers on. Since you'll be stomping as you pace in front of the screen after reading this... you might as well be comfortable. I read nothing to get steamed about. What you said is probably/mostly true. Since there are a lot of crybabies on MM, I understand your assumption about some getting their panties in a twist over what you said though.
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 54196
Buena Park, California, US
Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
Thank you for the kind words. I hate these threads because they single out one aspect of the craft and make it appear that it is better or worse.
I work in this business because it is my living. I am not ashamed of it. TFP is inappropriate for me.
For others though, it is a good thing. We often forget that photography is a form of art, and while everyone isn't always talented, everyone is entitled to express themselves. Beyond that, everyone is entitled to try.
I saw a comment about someone's images being uninspiring. All that says is that their images are uninspiring today. It says nothing of what their images will be next week, next month or next year. People improve and TFP is a way to develop your craft.
The missing word in some of these threads is "tolerance." I think you should hire me  hah
Photographer
Andrew Gettler
Posts: 126
Pueblo, Colorado, US
Doug Harvey wrote:
I think the big difference in the way that TFCD/Prints has evolved is that many photographers find it a way to get resque or nude images so that other photographers will pay attention to them. Or as everyone else states here, a gwc. is there another way? I mean come on.. Look at the ports here.. if the female is mostly naked she gets the most comments on that image even if the image is complete and utter crap. I see more worthless comments on naked images than I do on clothed ones that should get the attention.
Sex Sells.. thats why.
But I have a Question.. what the Heck does gwc stand for????
also, when I shoot, I may have an idea that requires nudity or implied... but I never do anything the model isn't willing to do. I ask them again and again and continue to ask to make sure they are confortable. Because if they are not I stop we move on. if there are images they don't want people to see they are gone.
But yes, Nudity is used to gain Attention. The Ports of people on this site alone proves that point.
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 54196
Buena Park, California, US
littlegett wrote:
and for this simple reason alone, I do not contact anyone whom has anything other than will do TFCD on there proff, or nothing at all. If I see, limited or none, I pass the model by. I wish others would do the same.
Nothing against the models mind you, just out of respect. If all I can offer is TFCD, im not going to hit up a model no matter how 'well' i think her look will fit my idea. Good or bad on my part? i don't know, but its not my way. I try to make myself known.. let them look at my port and desided for themselves.
Love it or leave it.. its all part of Art and 'Art Hurts' - Rob Zombie - 30 days of Hell- making of Devils Rejects.
guess it all boils down to common curtesy which isn't to common, and respect. which also lacks very much on the net.
one bad apple ruins the bunch... what about a dozen bad apples? to many idiots out there tring to cheat people mess up us little people trying to get in. When I see people that accept only paid assignments but I still want to work with them in the hopes of TFCD, I'll leave a compliment. Which is, in a sense, a business card. And just likea business card, some say thank you and toss it away. Others actually read it and think, "Nice" and then dig deeper. More than once I've shot TFCD with a "Pay Only" model.
Model
Iona Lynn
Posts: 11176
Oakland, California, US
littlegett wrote:
and for this simple reason alone, I do not contact anyone whom has anything other than will do TFCD on there proff, or nothing at all. If I see, limited or none, I pass the model by. I wish others would do the same.
Nothing against the models mind you, just out of respect. If all I can offer is TFCD, im not going to hit up a model no matter how 'well' i think her look will fit my idea. Good or bad on my part? i don't know, but its not my way. I try to make myself known.. let them look at my port and desided for themselves.
Love it or leave it.. its all part of Art and 'Art Hurts' - Rob Zombie - 30 days of Hell- making of Devils Rejects.
guess it all boils down to common curtesy which isn't to common, and respect. which also lacks very much on the net.
one bad apple ruins the bunch... what about a dozen bad apples? to many idiots out there tring to cheat people mess up us little people trying to get in. So my question to you is why do you shoot?
do you just shoot to "work on your portfolio"?
do you aspire to ever get paid for your work?
When you are getting paid will you still do all the tfp offers you get? If you can shoot 14 models in a week and you are getting paid for 10 of those slots and you get 7 models emailing you for tfp shoots..... do you say no to 3 of the paid shoots?
I see you point about the little people I have heard it before from a very good glamour photographer "in the beginging no one will shoot for you TFP in the end they all beg to get you to shoot TFP.
Photographer
Doug Harvey
Posts: 1055
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
littlegett wrote:
is there another way? I mean come on.. Look at the ports here.. if the female is mostly naked she gets the most comments on that image even if the image is complete and utter crap. I see more worthless comments on naked images than I do on clothed ones that should get the attention.
Sex Sells.. thats why.
But I have a Question.. what the Heck does gwc stand for????
also, when I shoot, I may have an idea that requires nudity or implied... but I never do anything the model isn't willing to do. I ask them again and again and continue to ask to make sure they are confortable. Because if they are not I stop we move on. if there are images they don't want people to see they are gone.
But yes, Nudity is used to gain Attention. The Ports of people on this site alone proves that point. I agree with the 'sex sells' mentality. I just choose to not go that route. GWC stands for 'Guy With Camera' or 'Geek with Camera'. Basically somone that does not read up on photography and just shoots - more than likely on full auto - as much nude images as he can to get attention.
Photographer
Andrew Gettler
Posts: 126
Pueblo, Colorado, US
Iona Lynn wrote:
So my question to you is why do you shoot?
do you just shoot to "work on your portfolio"?
do you aspire to ever get paid for your work?
When you are getting paid will you still do all the tfp offers you get? If you can shoot 14 models in a week and you are getting paid for 10 of those slots and you get 7 models emailing you for tfp shoots..... do you say no to 3 of the paid shoots?
I see you point about the little people I have heard it before from a very good glamour photographer "in the beginging no one will shoot for you TFP in the end they all beg to get you to shoot TFP. -I shoot because I love to, The Artistry in creating images and the different people drives me. I will look through images I take a they would speak to me and I would edit them to create something else all over again. I love art and all its forms, and for me with what I do photography is the most versitle. (I have also been known to draw and paint and scupture and write)
-I gather images for my portfolio hardcopy/and web, also to gather images to later manipulation for gallerys /online...
-I constantly inspired to be paid for something I love doing. Ever since I was born one might say, I have had my fair share of 'having to work' jobs that I hate. but now I want to do what I love, and money is the devils nessesity.
-Depending on who the person is I will try to fit what i can into my timeframe. Paid shoots always come first. Sadly. less im wealthy enough I can denigh the paid. But I am willing to work with models for avaible times to shoot. Even if its 2am in the morning.
To me, the love of it and the helping others is greater than the money aspect.. but guys gotta eat and have somewhere to plug the computer in.
Photographer
Andrew Gettler
Posts: 126
Pueblo, Colorado, US
DigitalCMH wrote:
When I see people that accept only paid assignments but I still want to work with them in the hopes of TFCD, I'll leave a compliment. Which is, in a sense, a business card. And just likea business card, some say thank you and toss it away. Others actually read it and think, "Nice" and then dig deeper. More than once I've shot TFCD with a "Pay Only" model. Exactly, so if I see something that catches my eye, I leave a comment, or a tag. But not going to ask them to shoot with me. If they see my av and comment/tag and look deeper and they on their own deside.. thats Sweet.
Photographer
Andrew Gettler
Posts: 126
Pueblo, Colorado, US
Doug Harvey wrote:
I agree with the 'sex sells' mentality. I just choose to not go that route. GWC stands for 'Guy With Camera' or 'Geek with Camera'. Basically somone that does not read up on photography and just shoots - more than likely on full auto - as much nude images as he can to get attention. thanx for the deff.
Well I hope I don't fall in that catigory + I shoot manual anyway... don't like how the auto reacts.. no control. 6-;
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 54196
Buena Park, California, US
littlegett wrote:
thanx for the deff.
Well I hope I don't fall in that catigory + I shoot manual anyway... don't like how the auto reacts.. no control. 6-; I got a Nikon D200 and doesn't even have an auto mode. Nikon bastards!! 
Photographer
J C ModeFotografie
Posts: 14718
Los Angeles, California, US
TFP / testing / personal work isn't just "practice". Since you have no interference from "money interests" i.e. a paying client you have more freedom to do what you want i.e. shoot according to your vision which helps you (very important) develop your vision. Then and only then can you distinguish yourself from your competitors, find your niche/audience/corner-of-the-market and experience success. Money is a double-edged sword! Sincerely, JAY carreon PHOTOGRAPHER http://www.portfolios.com/JAYcarreon 310 772 8214 PHONE
Photographer
Doug Harvey
Posts: 1055
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
JAY carreon wrote:
TFP / testing / personal work isn't just "practice". Since you have no interference from "money interests" i.e. a paying client you have more freedom to do what you want i.e. shoot according to your vision which helps you (very important) develop your vision. Then and only then can you distinguish yourself from your competitors, find your niche/audience/corner-of-the-market and experience success. Money is a double-edged sword!
Sincerely,
JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER
http://www.portfolios.com/JAYcarreon
310 772 8214 PHONE Agreed!
Photographer
ChrisChris
Posts: 91
Stockholm, Stockholm, Sweden
Ched wrote:
If you're going to go that far you might as well just say art requires passion and guts and gallons of blood. oh yeah. i forgot.
art also requires passion and guts and a gallon of blood.
thank you.
Model
_Alexandra
Posts: 650
Alexandria, Virginia, US
Everyone's work looks great! now all im asking is for $100 per hour just kidding. besides, TFP are fun and if you do a paid shoot, there's no gaurantee that you're getting photos out of them.
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