Wardrobe Stylist
Katalina Daer
Posts: 158
Cape Town, Western Cape, South Africa
Miss Anthropy wrote:
I know I'm going to get flamed here but I really have to get this off my chest.
Had a TFP shoot yesterday at a hotel with a girl that I flat refuse to work with again.
My first glimpse of her in all her fakenbaked, freshly peroxided splendour ( I had SPECIFICALLY asked her NOT to do this WEEKS before the shoot) was of talking on her pink cell phone in nonstop highspeed russian. Regardless of what the MUA wanted, she insisted upon applying false eyelashes which was ok as it turns out, which was good I guess because she refused to shoot without them. She came wearing a black bra which she would not remove. She complained that the shoes I had were too small but had brought NO wardrobe, even shoes of her own. I actually decorated a set to go with one of the outfits that I selected for her, A powder blue babydoll nighty, which didn't look TOO bad with the ever-present bra on underneath. I am not a hairstylist by any stretch of the imagination but still did a bang-up job on her hair. Well, as much as I could considering that she wouldn't actually let me FINISH the hairdo by putting it in pigtails. She then wasted my wardrobe, set and styling by wallering around on the floor in a highly unladylike fashion instead of posing in a more innocent manner. The irony of this was that she was dead set against doing anything provocative, not because she was against it morally, but because she wasn't getting PAID. Also ironic was the fact that if she had posed approrpriately for the costume you wouldn't have been able to see her girlbits. Essentially, there was no persuading her that she didn't know EVERYTHING. True, she's 18 but I've worked with 15 year olds who are more professional, poised and just generally easier to deal with. After I had my styling for one look dismissed as "k-mart" I just said " I need a cigarette" I bummed a light off a guy in the lobby who had a case of Hieneken. He cracked it open and actually GAVE ME one and two mints. Models take note. It is a BAD sign if your stylist has to pop away for a drink because you're being a brat. I was holding out big hopes for the model that was scheduled to shoot with her but she didn't show up, no calls, no email, Nada. Calls to her showed a disconnected number
Later in the day, Another girl showed up with two friends in tow and refused to wear the wardrobe I selected for her, calling it "Scandalous". Shortly after that one of her friends went to the car and shortly after THAT the models "mom" had been in a car accident. Cute!!
Diva #1 spotted this for what it was. Or at least suspected. Out of four scheduled models, I got ONE that was worth the trouble. I think that I actually got one shot that will go in my physical book so that's good at least.
I wanted to bail in the worst way but I figured that between two primadonnas and one no-show we had filled the Diva quota for the day. Besides, I was stuck at this hotel because I had too much stuff to take with me on the bus. Also, I'm one of those archaic "my word is my bond" dinosaurs and I said I'd do the shoot so I did the damn shoot. I'm also new and didn't want a diva rep, but I'm also very set in what kind of career I want and mindful of the image that I put forth in the work that is seen by the public. You can't get blood from a stone but I thought that I could at least get a couple of decent fashion shots for my book. I didn't want to come off as a bitch, but, I'm afraid that something far worse has happened and now I'm pinned as a pushover.
Has anyone else had a situation like this. How should I handle it in future? oh my god, that sounds like a nightmare! Nothing dire had happened like that to me and I think most models are scared of the guy I work under, but he is brilliant. Id suggest a "youll wear this or else" mentality.
Wardrobe Stylist
Miss Anthropy
Posts: 223
Portland, Oregon, US
raveneyes wrote:
I'm sorry...I wasn't trying to be snarky...I just find it amusing to finally see someone besides a photographer complain about these issues in these forums. I do empathize with your plight...really I do. lll wrote:
Ditto Hamza and Doug.
I see two things:
1) Diva - Show her the door
2) Complete communication breakdown - everyone is at fault
If you didn't get direction from the AD or photographer, you should ask for it. Ask what to bring, what is the concept. It is your responsibility to gather that information. You should have asked for all the measurement and size of the models etc. If you follow these, you will not run into the same problem in the future.
The photographer should have called it off, really. I DID ask for direction and got none. The man had no creativity when it came to fashion. You should have SEEN some of the wardrobe he gathered on his own.
I DID ask for measurements, was referred to MM profile and got false ones. Seriously now, what good does that serve anyway? The photographer ran into the same problem in buying something for her.
My apologies.
If you'd like advice on how to avoid the situation in the future can I suggest looking through a few of the photographer related posts on drama queen/diva/flakey models.
P.S. it's really not worth your time or mine to be all grumpy and persnickety about my response to your post. Next time just take it as the good natured smiley faced humorous response it is, rather than jumping down my throat about it. Well I didn't really see any smiles but I'll take you at your word. Thanks for the advice
lll wrote:
Not the first time, you know...seen this before. I remember that thread vividly. I really wish that you'd drop that.We all have bad days you know and I apologised. I'm really a very sweet person, but clearly you get more satisfaction out of thinking me some sort of soulless shrew...To each their own I suppose. Let me ask you this though, if I were such a flaming bitch would I have run into this much trouble and gotten walked on like this? didn't think so.
Photographer
Don Spiro
Posts: 194
Astoria, New York, US
First, make sure you and the photographer are on the same page. Then, make sure the model knows what is required of her (usually for a professional model just the fact that there is a stylist means that she will wear what the stylist chooses) and any concerns over styling should be worked out in advance.
At the first sign of trouble I would cancel a shoot. There is no point in shooting if the pictured will be unusable, and in most cases an uncomfortable model, even if she agrees to shoot, will still read as uncomfortable in the image.
And make sure you have photoreleases, or the whole day is wasted.
Photographer
Don Spiro
Posts: 194
Astoria, New York, US
First, make sure you and the photographer are on the same page. Then, make sure the model knows what is required of her (usually for a professional model just the fact that there is a stylist means that she will wear what the stylist chooses) and any concerns over styling should be worked out in advance.
At the first sign of trouble I would cancel a shoot. There is no point in shooting if the pictured will be unusable, and in most cases an uncomfortable model, even if she agrees to shoot, will still read as uncomfortable in the image.
And make sure you have photoreleases, or the whole day is wasted.
Wardrobe Stylist
Miss Anthropy
Posts: 223
Portland, Oregon, US
oh my god, that sounds like a nightmare! Nothing dire had happened like that to me and I think most models are scared of the guy I work under, but he is brilliant. Id suggest a "youll wear this or else" mentality. Lucky Duck !!! I have a hard time being too authoritarian. The ABSOLUTE first model I dressed, but haven't yet shot with due to bugaboos on the photographers end said " I don't like this" I looked her in the eye and said " it doesn't matter" When I got some back story on her, that she'd been through some foster homes and different stuff like that, and considered the fact that she was BRAND NEW, VERY religious and only sixteen, I felt bad. She would FLINCH every time I went to adjust her. Oy vey!!
The other photographer I've worked with and am set to shoot with again WOULD NOT have taken any of that noise. I know this for a fact and not just because one of the models was her own daughter!
Does a model working TFP have the authority to shitcan the wardrobe just because they aren't getting paid ?? There seems to be some difference of opinion on that.
I tend to bring a lot of wardrobe and then start with one or two pieces and build around that. Up to this point, noone had any problem with that. The girl who walked didn't care for that approach I guess. Now If I was doing a catalog shoot or some such for example where I had wardrobe already provided and models booked and everything, that would be a different story. basically I had to do everything but shoot the models and put on their makeup and I did a bit of that as well. I dressed the set, came up with concepts that were blatantly ignored, did hair to the best of my ability and did a bang up job considering the fact that of course miss missy knew best and my personal hair philosophy is don't wash and wear as long as you can before it gets too greasy. oh well. at least I got some use out of the curling tongs that my sisters were wont to get me for christmas before they knew better. I was even asked to MODEL at one point (nothing indecent) but politely refused.
Photographer
bobby sargent
Posts: 4159
Deming, New Mexico, US
Mikel Featherston wrote:
Try putting a mask or hood on her... perhaps she won't have as much of a problem if she is not so easily identified. Did that and it didn't change a thing. OH well today and she is gone. bs
Model
Magnoliamodel
Posts: 165
Miss Anthropy wrote:
I know I'm going to get flamed here but I really have to get this off my chest.
Had a TFP shoot yesterday at a hotel with a girl that I flat refuse to work with again.
My first glimpse of her in all her fakenbaked, freshly peroxided splendour ( I had SPECIFICALLY asked her NOT to do this WEEKS before the shoot) was of talking on her pink cell phone in nonstop highspeed russian. Regardless of what the MUA wanted, she insisted upon applying false eyelashes which was ok as it turns out, which was good I guess because she refused to shoot without them. She came wearing a black bra which she would not remove. She complained that the shoes I had were too small but had brought NO wardrobe, even shoes of her own. I actually decorated a set to go with one of the outfits that I selected for her, A powder blue babydoll nighty, which didn't look TOO bad with the ever-present bra on underneath. I am not a hairstylist by any stretch of the imagination but still did a bang-up job on her hair. Well, as much as I could considering that she wouldn't actually let me FINISH the hairdo by putting it in pigtails. She then wasted my wardrobe, set and styling by wallering around on the floor in a highly unladylike fashion instead of posing in a more innocent manner. The irony of this was that she was dead set against doing anything provocative, not because she was against it morally, but because she wasn't getting PAID. Also ironic was the fact that if she had posed approrpriately for the costume you wouldn't have been able to see her girlbits. Essentially, there was no persuading her that she didn't know EVERYTHING. True, she's 18 but I've worked with 15 year olds who are more professional, poised and just generally easier to deal with. After I had my styling for one look dismissed as "k-mart" I just said " I need a cigarette" I bummed a light off a guy in the lobby who had a case of Hieneken. He cracked it open and actually GAVE ME one and two mints. Models take note. It is a BAD sign if your stylist has to pop away for a drink because you're being a brat. I was holding out big hopes for the model that was scheduled to shoot with her but she didn't show up, no calls, no email, Nada. Calls to her showed a disconnected number
Later in the day, Another girl showed up with two friends in tow and refused to wear the wardrobe I selected for her, calling it "Scandalous". Shortly after that one of her friends went to the car and shortly after THAT the models "mom" had been in a car accident. Cute!!
Diva #1 spotted this for what it was. Or at least suspected. Out of four scheduled models, I got ONE that was worth the trouble. I think that I actually got one shot that will go in my physical book so that's good at least.
I wanted to bail in the worst way but I figured that between two primadonnas and one no-show we had filled the Diva quota for the day. Besides, I was stuck at this hotel because I had too much stuff to take with me on the bus. Also, I'm one of those archaic "my word is my bond" dinosaurs and I said I'd do the shoot so I did the damn shoot. I'm also new and didn't want a diva rep, but I'm also very set in what kind of career I want and mindful of the image that I put forth in the work that is seen by the public. You can't get blood from a stone but I thought that I could at least get a couple of decent fashion shots for my book. I didn't want to come off as a bitch, but, I'm afraid that something far worse has happened and now I'm pinned as a pushover.
Has anyone else had a situation like this. How should I handle it in future? i have heard too many stories like this and i dont understand why photographers still want the models back, after they are totally disrespectable lol.
well, im not going to ever be like that anyway thank god, whether i get work with photographers or not lol, im happy being nice 
and sounds like youve worked too hard, go put your feet up and have a cuppa
Wardrobe Stylist
Miss Anthropy
Posts: 223
Portland, Oregon, US
Thank You to everyone who offered their advice and empathy. It is muy appreciated!
SO, to sum up:
1.be pickier about:
a) who I style and
b)who I style for
2. communication is key
3. don't shoot
a) beneath my station or
b)out of my chosen genres and
4.don't take no crap off anyone
Is that the gist?
Model
the christy
Posts: 172
Los Angeles, California, US
You get what you pay for. I know you want 18 year olds,oh well. If you want a garentee,get a real Model from a good agency. It costs. Sorry you had a bad time. One of the craziest photographers (as in hard to deal with) I know,takes the coolest photos.
Photographer
CandyBBaddphotos
Posts: 123
Houston, Alaska, US
I have to respond to this. I've still new to photography and still need work so nobody overly criticize my work please. But I relate to the person here. She didn't want to do swimsuit cause she wasn't getting paid. That don't mean squat. A model needs to understand especially when she's dealing with a GOOD or very established photographer that if he offers TFP she need to jump on it cause normally he woud be charging her. But if she did get paid that still don't mean shit. My experience: model wanted to get paid to take swimsuit. Saw swimsuit it's like grandma's bathing suit, so conservative wasn't showing anything. I'm like sorry that's a fully clothed outfit and will only get fully clothed pay not extra, accept it or I just won't shoot. Many times you have to ask questions to the model and define some terms so there's no confusion. To some models topless means their hands covering breast. TO me that's implied/covered topless. When female do swimsuit you thinkin standard 2 piece showing body, lingerie you showing body, some females think lingerie with covering extra clothing over it qualify, it's not showing anything. You have to DEFINE things to models...and some models are NATURALLY asses, and some just honestly don't know what to do. But whether model doing TFP or getting paid especially if she's getting a copy or these pics will be published and therefore get her attention she need to respresent and promote herself through her pics to the fullest. if She don't want to put anything in the picture she can't get mad if the picture come out basically shit. Me personally if a model would have told me that my question is why should I pay you? what can you offer me? I've tried to convince several females, models, amateurs, etc...to take pics...after a million questions they like and how much I'm gettn paid? I'm like huh I never said anything about paying you but you just changed convo. It's no longer what can I do for you...it's what you have to offer me? Cause if I'm going to pay a model, and I do paid shoots, she must be willin to take the pic and give me the look I"m paying for. If she cannot sorry you ain't getting paid. You want something. So do I.
Photographer
64318
Posts: 1638
San Anselmo, California, US
I cant help but feel that your posture was somewhat a "victim". You were not in control of the situation at all, really......even though this was a TFP session. She would have understood you if you had described her behavior as a "SABBAKA= BITCH" in Russian. That might have stopped her pink cell phone conversation dead. You should have stopped and told her to leave immediately because she was behaving towards you with NO Respect---- and that is not professional. People like this with no manners or respect for individuals they work with are "TRASH" and should not be shown respect. Too bad it was a waste of your time. But we learn with experience. I personally never work with people I don't like . It s a hard & fast rule , but it works.
Photographer
KaoS GRaFFiX
Posts: 523
Sunbury, Pennsylvania, US
So I just got told I'm a difficult photographer! Why was I told this? Well I told the model to work on some facial expressions, because I wanted some emotion in our next shoot. The model totally bomb on our last shoot. She partied all night before, was half hung over, and put zero effort into it. She screwed up a project I was really excited to do. She promised she'd do better if she had a second chance, and foolishly I was going to give it too her. I was going to put $100 of my cash on the line for some artistic nudes and she just expected me to kiss her ass and let her do whatever she wanted, with my money on the line! Somehow I'm the difficult one here? yikes! I just asked her to practice making some mean and evil faces before we did the shoot, then she freaked on me! She has the exact same look on her face in EVERY photo, yeah...that's going to take her far.
Photographer
Richard Maxwell
Posts: 242
Somerville, Massachusetts, US
i wanna wikipedia "girlbits" now
Photographer
Benjamen McGuire
Posts: 3991
Portland, Oregon, US
The OP is funny, here's a good line for the lil peshka....
"Zacroy svoy peesavati rot, sooka"
Model
A BRITT PRO-AM
Posts: 7840
CARDIFF BY THE SEA, California, US
I'm truly sorry for the ''cluster-whatever''
it's totally inexcusable, even tho commonplace with young gals ... She sounds horrific!
I'm not suprised tho, if one tries to work with children (who think they are the S**T)
lol
My advice to everybody is to work with over 21 where possible
unless you know the 'person' to be professional and mature. It's all drama and me me me so often (at any age) that I am bored with it.
I have to add that TFP modelling means you aren't forced to wear or do anything you don't want to
Even if you are being paid a LOT it's still only what's been agreed.
She was just a nasty piece of work and treated you V badly.
REASON?
May I sugest fellas like that photographer?
Someone willing to put up with this " (treat them like stars and pander to them even when they behave like that!!) So awestruck by her was he?
Pathetic.
He was in charge of shoot. His call.
Well done for sticking it out!!
Photographer
oldguysrule
Posts: 6129
Just say NO to TFP
umm... isn't difficult model redunant?
Photographer
La Seine by the Hudson
Posts: 8587
New York, New York, US
Star wrote:
They are called the Russian bitches
Star You know I never understood why they're like that in the States. They're honestly wonderful to work with in Europe, but in the States there ARE a lot of problems with them...
Photographer
La Seine by the Hudson
Posts: 8587
New York, New York, US
lll wrote:
Ditto Hamza and Doug.
I see two things:
1) Diva - Show her the door
2) Complete communication breakdown - everyone is at fault
If you didn't get direction from the AD or photographer, you should ask for it. Ask what to bring, what is the concept. It is your responsibility to gather that information. You should have asked for all the measurement and size of the models etc. If you follow these, you will not run into the same problem in the future.
The photographer should have called it off, really. And this is about as true as true gets.
Photographer
Steal Your Ghost
Posts: 447
Los Angeles, California, US
We should have a mandatory sodium penthanol injection for unruly models. ^_^
Photographer
studio36uk
Posts: 22898
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna
Send her this; tell her to practice in the mirror; come back when she can do it like a dog. ![https://www.bassethoundrescue.org/BHRSC/Dogs/Ralphie%20Evil%20Eye%20McNasty.jpg]() Studio36
Model
x_tati_x
Posts: 3
Beverly Hills, California, US
Why do some people think it's got something to do with the girl being russian? That's racist!!! i'm russian but i would never act like she did.
Photographer
Rich Davis
Posts: 3136
Gulf Breeze, Florida, US
x_tati_x wrote:
Why do some people think it's got something to do with the girl being russian? That's racist!!! i'm russian but i would never act like she did. The Russian model I worked with was very nice. So you're right it doesn't have anything to do with it.
Photographer
Tzalam
Posts: 548
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I think you should take this shoot as a valueble lesson onhow some part of this business are.
Whether TFP or paid doens't matter at the shoot everone should be curtious and professional (but i'll wake up now)
What would you have done if this was a fully pate shoot for everyone? Learn to deal with it am make the best of it at the time. Hopefully it won't happend again.
Sooner or later everyone gets into one of those situations and even if there is nothing usable in it. Just chock it up to educations.
She could have beed some big star with her entourage pulling the same shit.
Personally i would have put my foot down and some point and put a stop to it. Even if it ment say thank you for coming good bye. I only had to do that once in 20 years.
Photographer
Raquelly
Posts: 625
Newark, New Jersey, US
Monsante Bey wrote:
Wooo lawd....
I wish a muthafucka would come to one of my shoots trying to run shit. Ya'll would be talking about it for months!!! I don't play that mess, the Cleveland in me would come out faster than a fat chick suggesting goinfg to Dennys after church.
Not that i'd put my hands on them, but they'd be put in check, with the option of either doing it right, or going home. LOLOLOLOLOL !!
is it wrong that as I was reading the OP the EXACT SAME THING ran thru my mind ? Well, except subsitute Brooklyn for Cleveland - and the whole Dennys thing (that was pretty funny) 
"I wish a muthafucka WOULD .... " - I definitely live by the WISH creed (as opposed to the HOPE factor )
Photographer
GDS Photos
Posts: 3399
London, England, United Kingdom
I understand your predicament and frustration. Rightly or wrongly the photographer or art director (I've never had one) needs to be in charge. There is a dynamic at a shoot which requires driving and as the photographer I feel it is my job to do that. I will also accept input from the model or MUA (I've never been lucky enough to have a stylist too) especially in a TFP context. I understand entirely why you didn't blow the whole thing off as that would have got you a nil return and in a few weeks you will not feel as bitter about this experience.
Of course you should continue to shoot TFP. Those that say never do it are just showing us all how important they are that they don't have to. You are relatively inexperienced and so this sort of quid pro quo arrangement suits your budget more.
It seems though that if you have 3 elements at the shoot, at least one should be experienced enough to put a stop to poor behaviour. Your photographer was obviously on a steep learning curve to as were the models.
Lastly, "Russian Bitches" was, if I have understood Stars other posts meant to be descriptive of these girls (not models) only. Not to tar all Russians with the same brush. I have had many great photographic experiences with former Soviet Union models and would receommend them highly.
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