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Charging a minimum amount for TFPs
Comments on my concept of charging a minimum amout for TFPs. Since we know there's no such thing as a 'free lunch' - I'd propose a modest fee ($10-25) for a TFP. I'm sitting here getting ready to mail out 3 disks from one of my TFPs I shot two months ago (yes, editing does take time), and realized that the basic material and mailing costs do add up. Comments? Cheers, Tim at www.portlandfilmworks.com Jun 03 05 02:12 pm Link * pulls up a comfy chair and grins * Jun 03 05 02:28 pm Link Posted by Sand Angel: LOL..Pass the popcorn! Jun 03 05 02:31 pm Link You can charge what ever you want, but it's not a TFP is you're charging. It could be called a TFC (time for cost) or just a paid shoot at an extremely discounted fee. if you call it a TFP, you'll probably just end up confusing everyone if you're lucky. Jun 03 05 02:31 pm Link Go away, double post! Jun 03 05 02:31 pm Link I think the cost of mailing and CDs is minimal and have no intention of charging for my TFPs and yes, good editing does take time. Jun 03 05 02:32 pm Link I'd have no problem paying a model $10 - $25 for TFP...That WAS your question, wasn't it? Jun 03 05 02:56 pm Link if you keep track of all your reciepts you can claim mailing costs that are biz related on your taxes... I do that with fan mail and headshot/comp mailings... if mailing costs are killing your wallet, why not ask the model for a S.A.S.E? Jun 03 05 02:58 pm Link I have to agree withTheda. It is no longer "Time For Prints." It is now "Time and Money for Prints." Or perhaps "Really Cheap Portfolio Shoot, But I Keep The Rights" or RCPSBITR. Nope... to long and obtuse. I place value on a model's work as well as my own, but I am always willing to cover postage et al. It is small price to pay. Jun 03 05 03:50 pm Link Ok, first lets line a few things out and get some facts straight. 1. TFP/TFCD didn't exist as a term until web modeling sites came along. Before that it was called (and is still called in the non-web modeling industry)Test Shoot. 2. A few years back before the digital boom PROFESSIONAL photographers typically charge a nominal fee for test shooting in the larger markets. Because of the advances of digital photography and the large number of new GWC (guys with cameras) coming along, it has become harder and harder to charge for Test Shoots because of all the GWC giving stuff away. What all the GWC's dont understand is this one fact: when you give away a disc of your raw images to models on a TFP/TFCD shoot, you are basically giving away the equivelant of your negatives which back in the day, photographers would never do. The model would get prints of all the shots, that was it. Should we be giving away CDs of raw images at these test shoots? Personally I do not. I give a cd with up to 30 edited shots full resolution (watermarked with my company name) and websized. I also give all raw images but all of these raw images are labled PROOF across the image. This is done for two reasons. First reason is, I dont want shots I don't particularly like getting edited and put on the web. Second reason is, if the model likes some of the shots from our test shoot at a later date, she can always get back to me and let me know. My 2 cents Jun 03 05 04:10 pm Link i agree with Brandon. if you want to charge, then just call it what it is. a cheap test shoot. as for rights, they are the photographer's anyway unless a release is signed to the contrary, right? please correct me if i am wrong, i'm not trying to be argumentative. i see nothing wrong with charging a nominal 'sitting' fee if you wish. and i am used to the 'proof' on images, that's not a bad idea and keeps the raw images you don't like from being posted. Z Jun 03 05 04:25 pm Link You tell'em Brandon! As an old fart I can remember the time back before any idiot with a digital camera and a website could call themselves a "photographer". Now I have to compete with no talent hacks giving everything away for free 'cause they just want to ogle some pretty girls and look important. I was just bitching to Nadya Lev about all this the other day. These guys have dragged down the prices you can charge to nothing. Any other photogs on here remember making $1200.00 for a single pic? Jun 03 05 04:43 pm Link $1200.00 a single Pic..Excuse me while I pick myself off the floor from laughing so damn hard.I dont see anyone on this Forum/Board by the name of Ansel Adams *** looks agian just to make sure ** Jun 03 05 04:58 pm Link Charging Postage to me is a Joke..Models pay for a make Up Artist at least.So I personally think its a bit too much to ask for Postage on a TFCD as well myself.Its a trade of time and talent. Postage Not Included 2 cents ** way short of whats needed for postage Jun 03 05 05:00 pm Link Posted by Jerry Bennett: Who? Me? Jun 03 05 05:08 pm Link "Now there you go again"...Ronald Reagan TFP means "too fuckin poor"....Oliver Cole Jun 03 05 05:20 pm Link I really don't understand all the banter about semantics... Life is not black & white, even though my photographs are... As a photographer, if you can get a paying gig, get it. I'm doing one next week. If you are a model, ditto. However, if there is someone you'd like to work with that will trade their talent and Time for your talent and time it's a win/win. You both get something from the collaboration that would not have existed otherwise. Call it a Test, if you must. Call it a Mumbo Face Dogpatch Banana (MFDB) - whatever... Tonight I am working with a model that I wouldn't have thought would ever work with me wiothout charging me a rate. She's very well known and has shot with the best of them. She liked my stuff and contacted me. Now, if I'd been an asshole, I could have said, "well, sure, but you know, I charge X dollars har har har (smug laugh." If I'd been her, I would have stold me to fuck off. I viewed it as a great opportunity and tomorrow I will have the results of our gig and we'll both have the images to exploit! As fas as expenses go - everybody hurts. The model spends on wardrobe items, makeup, manicures, pedicures, salons and transportation. I buy film, batteries, take cabs, spare bulbs, postage, hard drives, computer programs and blank DVDs/CDs... I do tend to default to the Southern Gentleman dogma - I open the door, buy food, water, coffee, and if it's late and/or sketchy - cab/car fare... Jun 03 05 05:31 pm Link It's a tough balancing act and we all struggle with this everyday possibly changing our minds often. I was given advice very early on, "if you get a reputation for doing things for little or no pay then it'll be hard to demand more later." Yet at the same time if you demand more all or most of the time then you loose out on many wonderful opportunities for growth, collaboration. Just like James Graham stated. Some of the best work I have done has been tfp/cd and some of the best paying gigs came from referral from photogs that I shoot tfp/cd with. I think you gotta constantly be adjusting the situation to fit your needs at that time. If you really are finacially busted and have little time then maybe tfp would not be suitable then, but if things are going alright, what does tfp hurt? It does more good than not in most cases. Jun 03 05 05:46 pm Link Posted by James Graham: Ditto. Jun 03 05 05:49 pm Link Posted by Brandon Luna: I don't want raw images..who does? (if they do ..they are crazy, who wants to sit and batch convert raw images..hundred images or more??) I don't want pics of me blinking or caught mid -retard expression...throws those out....what i want is a digital contact sheet (like in the old school) to pick my frames out and only have the finals on cd. Jun 03 05 07:15 pm Link Hey Sib - I got some of those mid-retard ones of you... Jun 03 05 07:23 pm Link It's NOT that important what you call it. Sometimes I do a "tfp" where the model offers to pay for a set of prints or shipping, and I accept payment for the cost. Sometimes I have college students pose for me that I pay a little money to for posing as well as give them copies of the images. Most of the time there is no money exchanged, but what's the big deal if we help each other out a little once in a while? Still "tfp" to me ... well sort of! Jun 03 05 07:27 pm Link Posted by James Graham: I love you james but I will gnaw your ankles off if you post them..haha...j/k..no seriously I'm vicious like a crazed chipmunk..don't toy with me Jun 03 05 07:48 pm Link Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: ya know? Jun 03 05 10:24 pm Link for TFP I normally charge the model the film processing fee ($10 per roll) Jun 03 05 10:26 pm Link Posted by Hel Inferna: Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: ya know? I know what you mean...This total disregard for the model's role in images is a logic wall i cannot climb over. The way these guys go on about how to give models even less than we do now is beyond me. Jun 04 05 07:55 am Link A couple of excuses I've heard from models (who've [ironically] had initiated contact) are: -"Why would I pay you a dime when there are photographers out there who'll do it all out of their own pocket?" -"I don't have that kind of money. I'm a poverty-stricken college student." *Laughs* Like I'm not in that category myself. Matthew Jun 04 05 08:49 am Link Excuses for "what" ? Jun 04 05 11:28 am Link I'm not sure I should even try a response here, since my views are so out-of-step with those expressed in this post. FWIW, Here are my thoughts. 1. It is as pointless to rant about how the digital democratization of photography has ruined your business model (which doesn't really bother me) as it is for me to rant about how digital photography is driving wet photographic processes from the market (which I care about tremendously). The world is changing. If it means your meal ticket is going away, well, visit Flint and tell it to the (former) auto workers. 2. I got into a bit of a food fight over this subject in an earlier iteration of this discussion. On reflection, I appreciate that there are two very different communities here, each largely talking past the other. On the one side are the guys who hope to make money photographing aspiring young women with starry dreams. (I would throw them into the "Guys With Cameras" category, but that would invite a food fight.) On the other are photographers who consider themselves artists. The artists expect to pay for their subjects' time; the others expect to be paid for their time. I posed a simple test in an earlier post, that was overlooked. But I think it goes to the heart of the question. When a photographer who charges shoots a client, does he ask for a release and use the images for his own purposes? If the answer is yes, then I consider that abusive. 3. I agree with Melvin and James, that in the end it is up to the photographer and model to find common ground on terms of work. That said, I think there are photographers who abuse the position of power they occupy with respect to the models they photograph. As a rule, if a woman agrees to work for me, for my benefit, and is signing my release so I can make use of her images, then I believe she should be compensated for her time. 4. Yes, my images are of value, and the rate I pay my subjects reflects that. But people must eat, models no less than anyone else. My conscience does not rest so easily when I ask a stranger to stand in front of my camera, naked, for hours on end for my benefit, if I do not pay her something for her time, over and above copies of the images we create. 5. I appreciate that photographers must eat too. But if you are on the artist side of the divide, then there is no excuse for not factoring in the cost of hiring your subjects into the price of your art. If you cannot afford it, you ought not be doing it. Kodak's not giving me my Tri-X, Agfa's not supplying me gratis with Rodinal. If you can't afford to do right by your subjects, go shoot trees until you can. And if you're on the commercial side of the divide: Well, you will do what the market will bear in a world full of GWCs. But I hope you have enough of a conscience left to feel at least a twinge of guilt if you ask your paying clients to sign releases for you at the end of the session. Sanders McNew www.mcnew.net Posted by Brandon Luna: Jun 04 05 11:53 am Link All of my shoots are not the same. All of my tests are not the same. All of my TF?s are not the same. All of my models are not the same. All of my makeup artists are not the same. Is there a Tfp police unit that I did not know about or a Tf? union or the TF mafia or Tf triade? NSTFP, CITfP, FBTFP, And the Justice league of TFPers to the rescue. Even if there was a TFP SWAT unit would most of you care anyway? Hanachan, we are off down the yellow fixer stained road to the next topic. Jun 04 05 11:55 am Link Posted by Sanders McNew: I thought models dont eat... lol Jun 04 05 12:42 pm Link Posted by Jeremy Lelii: Posted by Sanders McNew: I thought models dont eat... lol I've had two models collapse mid-session. Both said that they had not eaten all day so they would not look too big in the photos. Don't get me started. Jun 04 05 12:57 pm Link Posted by sibyl: I speak on behalf of all photographers when I say, "I love you." Jun 04 05 01:01 pm Link Well I know of a few makeup artists who work for TFP and they charge a makeup kit free of $20-40 bucks, depending on what is needed. So why couldn't a photographer charge a lighting kit fee? Jun 04 05 02:29 pm Link TFP for a feee is no longer TFP Even TFP witht he mdoel covering the costs of film - is no longer TFP When a model has to pay - she deserves some rights beyond the standard. The point of a photographer shooting a mdoel for free,is new photos for their portfolio, that they own, AND not having to hire the model. the moment a model hires or pays a photographer - they deserve more than the standard. Jun 04 05 02:32 pm Link BTW - dont whine about dgitial shooting / the internet ruining your career Outstanding photographers won't lose top end clients because some guy with a personal digital camera is online shooting girls for free. I find, the people the most endangered by "internet mdoeling" are those with questionable talent in the first place, or fear change, or lack basic marketing skills to teh point where they cant handle someone else marketing a touch better than them. Outstanding photographers who are "true pros" will get work, regardless of "internet modeling" Jun 04 05 02:35 pm Link Posted by Sanders McNew: I admire you more and more with every post you make. I'm glad you're here to show us that one can be a successful photographer without taking advantage of the people that help us get where we're going. Jun 04 05 03:43 pm Link Posted by Sanders McNew: Posted by Brandon Luna: well said Jun 04 05 04:01 pm Link Posted by James Graham: I'm calling it Mumbo Face Dogpatch Banana from now on. I just hope somone else knows what I mean... Jun 04 05 04:15 pm Link Posted by Sanders McNew: Far from being an abuse this is a normal part of the negotiations that ultimately determine usage rates. Jun 04 05 04:22 pm Link |