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I heard that once you say no tfp....
that the quality of your porfolio may go down, everything else held constant. Meaning, other photographers/models are still doing tfp and you aren't testing with agency models/photographers. The theory is this: as a model, once you state NO tfp, you are not going to attract the top photographer because he is not going to pay you to shoot. You are going to attract photographers that are still working on their portfolio and need to pay in order to get better models. You are getting the money, but not the pictures. Often, but not always. As a photographer, your not getting very many models to pay you, and your not shooting agency chics, so you are attracting models who need to pay because they are having a hard time getting tfp. Maybe they are inexperienced, or don't have a really great look, but in the end the pictures are not great. So once again, you got the money, but not the pictures. You're not getting tears, you're not at an agency. You are just on the internet, shooting for money. So what do you put in your portfolio?? This is NOT something I came up with!!! So don't flame me. But whadday think?? Jan 05 06 02:00 pm Link Angel, You have made some very good points here. In the past, I have charged "models" as you said but they will never be in my portfolio. I don't do much of that anymore because I'd rather shoot great models for free than shoot "sub-standard models" for money. It's more rewarding in ways that cannot be measured in money. I also don't intend to try and make money off models because shooting models to me is fun! I love the creative collaboration between the model and I when we do TFP because we both have a stake in the outcome. The synergy between the photographer and model is what I thrive on and makes the most rewarding photos and experience. I know several models that only charge and the work they get back is GWC quality because GWCs are willing to pay them. So they complain that they have no good shots in their portfolio - well... what do they expect. For photographers, there are a myriad of ways to make money other than trying to make money off models. If I wanted to make money off models, then I should shoot for an agency. P.S. I'd never charge you  Jan 05 06 02:16 pm Link Angel Tara wrote: I think I would LOVE to do a TFP shoot with you, if you're willing to do a TFP shoot with me. I'd call that a win-win situation. Jan 05 06 02:19 pm Link I disagree. If you're skilled then you should be picky about who you shoot. If you're a good photographer and a model doesn't want to shoot tests for TFP then they're either an amature who is really uptight about thinking they're amazing or they already have a developed portfolio and want to concentrate on making a job out of it (and that of course is the point, right?). As far as I'm concerned I'm willing to work with models where I feel the interaction will benefit the both of us equally and great pictures should be payment enough on both sides. If you need to pay models to pose for you because you don't have the skills to shoot a good photo and attract skilled models for TFP, then don't bother. Pratice shooting your best friend or something until your skills improve. Jan 05 06 02:26 pm Link Angelo Lorenzo wrote: Ok, let me see if I've got this straight... Angelo Lorenzo wrote: So if I'm a skilled photographer, then I shouldn't shoot with those models that claim they don't accept TFP's, because they're already established, right? Angelo Lorenzo wrote: But if the end result of a shoot benefits both of us, then I should do TFP? Angelo Lorenzo wrote: And if I'm not skilled, then I shouldn't do TFP's with models who do TFP, I should just shoot my friends for TFP and forget about the models that don't shoot for TFP? Jan 05 06 02:43 pm Link If you're a skilled photographer shooting for a portfolio, you shouldn't have to settle for sub par models, and you should respect established models who only want to do paid work. Sure some established models will work for TFP if you have a good concept, etc. and its worth a call or email. If you both benefit from a tfp shoot, do it. I dont use inexperienced models (they just don't react to direction properly) and I don't pay for amature models who think they're hot stuff and have an attitude because they look good in a bikini. You shouldn't have to pay models for portfolio shoots because you'll go broke in the process, it's bad business. Just be selective about the models you shoot who agree to TFP. If you aren't skilled chances are you won't attract models with experience, not that you shouldn't do TFP. If you can't attract models you may be tempted to pay for one, but its far cheaper just to pratice with a friend. In other words, I keep my standards high for portfolio shoots and I don't say yes at every offer from a model and I don't get desperate to pay an agency for one. Jan 05 06 02:57 pm Link I don't see great models doing TFP with bad photographers and I don't see great photographers doing TFP with models that have no potential. It's a stepwise approach. Each TFP should improve your portfolio and help you get to that next better model or that next better photographer. Why not say, you're very busy and that you're selective on whom you do TFP with and that you'll consider photographers that you believe can improve your portfolio? Jan 05 06 03:03 pm Link David A wrote: hmm that pretty much sums it up. My explinations are always convoluted. Jan 05 06 03:26 pm Link David A wrote: That's not to say it doesn't happen... Jan 05 06 03:33 pm Link EMG STUDIOS wrote: You're right of course but it should be a stepwise process. Jan 05 06 03:38 pm Link Do what is best for you. If you do not have the time and/or cannot afford to do TFP, then don't. It's really as simple as that. if you see your portfolio suffering, then readjust and make yourself available. This topic isn't really all that hard to figure out yet people seem to have a hard time figuring it out. I have yet to be paid for a shoot by a model. My last two new models offered to pay me. I waived any charges for them because I wanted them as part of my portfolio. Why? they were non-Asians I feel desperate for non-Asians. If I had still required the payment, I would not have shot with them yet as they'd still be saving money. And in the case of both of these girls, it has an added benefit. One is a graphic artist and she's redesigning my business cards. At first she said she was doing it for free but then I reminded her of our past shoot and future shoots and she got the hint. We're both being paid. Paid with service rather than cash. The other girl is hoping to get into professional sports PR...who knows where that might get me. Jan 05 06 03:45 pm Link Wow...great responses! I agree with much of what has been said. My personal take on it is this, if it's a beneficial trade to both parties, go for it! However, an alternative to those who insist on no tfp, it is possible to get paid for a shoot, and then hire a model with the look and experience that you need. But, in the end, what do you net?? And the same goes for models. I can do a bunch of paid shoots but in order to get what I need for my portfolio, I'm going to have to go pay a photographer. So what do I net? Or you can skip the extra steps and trade in the first place.  I think as a brand new model, do tests or tfp to gain experience and confidence in front of the camera. Once you have that, when you are ready, then maybe pay a really good photographer to kick your port up to notches unknown. May sound backwards but what is the point of shelling out hundreds of dollars if the pics are useless because you can't pose, etc and you are not ready for a commercial shoot? Is there anyone here that really does not do tfp? I mean really...not just those disclaimers that really mean "no tfp unless with the right person." Jan 05 06 05:10 pm Link Angel Tara wrote: yes and they are actually creating thier art and making money.... Jan 05 06 05:13 pm Link Jeff Fiore wrote:
Jan 05 06 05:15 pm Link Ed Burns Photography wrote: Win-win indeed! I'm certainly willing. In fact I'd be honored. Jan 05 06 05:18 pm Link Doug Swinskey wrote: Doug, you don't do tfp? Then you shoot agency girls? Jan 05 06 05:19 pm Link There's nothing inconsistent about being picky and doing tfp. Some of the best known models on this site say no tfp; in practice, they still do tfp. The difference is, they do some serious research, choose photographers who fill gaps in their book, or are a potential networking resource, or are just exceptionally talented and creative. They don't do this everyday, but when things slow down a bit, or when the book gets stale, they start approaching photographers. I've seen models turn down 20 tfp requests, accept one, and then e-mail a photographer and offer tfp... all within 30 minutes. Each persons situation is unique; the trick is to find what works for you. Jan 05 06 05:20 pm Link Allow me to throw in my two Cents worth as I'd like to get some feedback on what I'm currently doing anyway. I'm not a great Photographer and if you visit my Web Site you'll see what I mean. On the other hand, I have a working arrangement with a really great Photographer and he will be doing all my Important Photo Shoots for me, those where I need a Shoot to Print a Poster or Calendar. At the same time, I've already seen it happen where a girl has some good Photos of herself in her Portfolio and claims to have over Five years of experience. However, the day of the Photo Shoot for a Poster for a Motorcycle Dealership, she produces a two piece Swim Suit and says "This is my Bikini and I won't wear yours cause it is to small." She had already been told that we would want to take Photos of her in Bikini, Boy Shorts, Daisy Dukes and a few other items along these lines. She produced the "Daisy Dukes" that she had created whereby the bottom of the Shorts was a good inch below the Cheeks of her Butt rather than two inches above. Because of the above situation I have started a Policy that the only girls that I will show a Client for consideration for an Event or Photo Shoot for him will be from the girls on my Web Sites. (The girls that you currently see on there now are mostly the photos girls submitted to the other Business I was working with that went out of Business shortly after I left them.) In the last two weeks I probably sent out two dozen Emails to girls telling them a little about what I was doing, directed them to the Web Site and explained what I would require for us to work together, (Basically a 2 to 3 hour Interview with them in front of the Camera to get Photos of them to post on the Web Site to provide them the opportunity to be choosed for work with the Clients as I find them as well as let me know something about themselves, including their personality.) At this moment I have about a half dozen who have said "Yes, I'm interested so, lets set up a time." Perhaps the others haven't gotten the Email as of yet or didn't like the idea or simply wasn't willing to do the Interview. However, I think this is a much more reliable way than simply doing Email and Phone Conversation and then meeting a girl for the first time a half hour before the Shoot for a Project is to begin. Jan 05 06 05:36 pm Link Angel Tara wrote: unless the model is nationally known or recognizable, most models cant bring 50% to the table..so no..im not a TFP shooter.. Jan 05 06 05:48 pm Link Angel Tara wrote: How could *anyone* be upset if *you* showed up on the doorstep one day? Jan 05 06 05:50 pm Link EXIT175 wrote: I am honestly not sure how to respond to this. I will say however, that if I got something about a 2 to 3 hour interview on camera, I'd run! Sounds scary... Jan 05 06 05:50 pm Link Doug Swinskey wrote:
Jan 05 06 05:51 pm Link Angel Tara wrote:
Jan 05 06 06:01 pm Link Krischelle wrote: Yup....sometimes a photographer asks to work with you, is willing to pay your rate but you know your images aren't gonna be of high quality cause you've seen their work. That's when I'd rather not shoot. I don't want to downgrade in regards to my portfolio just to get paid. Jan 05 06 06:14 pm Link "I heard that once you say no tfp...." Great points stated. From a photographer and casting standpoint, this statement means your photos are no longer current. Reason, you're only taking paid jobs, which is fine. But when you're paid, you don't get photos. So, your photos are no longer current. A younger model or less experienced model (that has current photos) may be given the opportunity when it comes to hiring based Only On Photos. Jan 05 06 06:16 pm Link Angel Tara wrote: Yeah- but a good photographer can make a model who isnt great- great in an image. A good model can less often do the same for a subpar photographer. So- I would say a photographer is probably in a better position to go without TFP than a model. Jan 05 06 06:17 pm Link Why limit yourself? I think not doing any TFP at all means you are really hurting your chances to continuously build and improve your portfolio. I agree with what most of the other's have had to say so far. Do TFP with people that are going to enhance your portfolio, and not detract from it. Jan 05 06 06:23 pm Link Excellent point, Nerlande. If you see their work and know that they are gonna produce not so great results, you know you are gonna end up with cruddy photos on their site for the world to see and that is a reflection of your work as well. All it takes is bad light to cast a shadow under your nose to make you look like pinnochio and you will get laughed from here to china. LOL Been there done that, i am alot more cautious of who I shoot with now. Jan 05 06 06:28 pm Link Nerlande and K, I agree and I still do tfp. I 'ed at Doug because hey, if that's what he feels, more power to him! I love to be in front of the camera but honestly, I don't do it for the love of it. I do it trying to build a career. I love making awesome pics but I also want them to increase my potential worth, aka...get me jobs! Jose, I agree that a really good photographer is in a better position to make an inexperienced model look great, than the other way around. Jan 05 06 06:29 pm Link Angel Tara wrote: Angel, you are welcome anytime, even 3 AM but I'll probably need coffee Jan 05 06 06:43 pm Link One must also look at the time that goes into a TFP shoot. What does the TFP shoot cost a model? What does the TFP shoot cost the photographer? When a model leaves a shoot she's done, other than possible transportation. When a photographer is done a shoot he must back-up his images, pack-up his equipment, and start tedious boring hours of Photoshopping. Photoshopping alone, I spend as much time as the actual shoot... often more! Jan 05 06 06:44 pm Link EXIT175 wrote: Kinda makes you an agent more than anything else, doesn't it? Jan 05 06 06:51 pm Link Timeless Photos wrote: If you are not spending more time in post-process than during the shoot you are either doing marathon 6-day photo sessions, take such absolutely perfect pictures that you don't need any serious post, or are far more selective and efficient with your time than I am. Jan 05 06 06:54 pm Link Mikel Featherston wrote: Timeless Photos wrote: Yes, that's what I'm saying as well! Jan 05 06 07:01 pm Link I think the real question is are you an artist and muse or just focused on what you can make. Lets be real most of the photographers posting aren't going to pay and if they do it won't come close to what most clients can pay. Bottom line if you want to make money go to a real agency. If they don't think you have what it take you'll find out quickly. TFP is for those who love modeling and photography. Sure some of the photographers here are real full time pros but I bet most are hobbists who enjoy shooting. Quite often they produce great images. Should you test with everyone? Remember the results one model may get may not be what another gets from the same photographer. Like with with many things there are no answers written in stone. Jan 05 06 07:07 pm Link lol that's why in my profile I say: I do NOT do TFP However I consider TESTING with agency/published photographers : ) it's the same thing, in a way, but the first part is intended to detour GWC interests for TFPs, and the second part is to show that I still would love to test free of charge with great photographers. lol, hopefully, it's working : P Jan 05 06 07:07 pm Link Timeless Photos wrote: Mikel Featherston wrote: Timeless Photos wrote: Yes, that's what I'm saying as well! Sorry... got the impression that you sometimes spent less time in Photoshop than at a shoot. I've never had that happen. Of course, when I get bored, or have long stretches between shoots, I go back into my archives and pull out a photo to play with. It's a good way to keep in practice, and sending a 'new' image on to the model is a great way to get her in the mood for another shoot. Jan 05 06 07:07 pm Link lol that's why in my profile I say: I do NOT do TFP However I consider TESTING with agency/published photographers : ) it's the same thing, in a way, but the first part is intended to detour GWC interests for TFPs, and the second part is to show that I still would love to test free of charge with great photographers. lol, hopefully, it's working : P Jan 05 06 07:08 pm Link Angel Tara wrote: I see one hole in your theory: if the model is good enough and approaches a great photographer, the photographer will shoot TFP. The model may not attract as many good photographers, but that just means he/she has to be a bit more aggressive in contacting photographers. It's a shift in dynamics. Of course, if the model doesn't have that "something special", he/she is SOL. Angel Tara wrote: Whatever looks good. *grin* Jan 05 06 07:12 pm Link Timeless Photos wrote: Hey Keith! I see the photographer's side... but with that being said (and I'm especially thinking about this because I'm shooting tomorrow) while the photographer I'm working with tomorrow will likely still be in bed by the time I'm awake... I'll be up much earlier getting ready doing my hair/make-up... making sure I have everything I need in terms of wardrobe, etc. So while the photographers do have work to do after the shoot... models usually have a lot to worry about beforehand in order to be ready for the shoot as well (this obviously only applies if it's TFP and there's no MUA, hair stylist, wardrobe, or other help being provided) Jan 05 06 07:13 pm Link |
