. . . . whatever I may do within modeling does not cancel out the other things I do for my family or as a person with living responsibly as possible. It's the cancellation of any other merits I was previously credited with possessing by his family which creates the most pain for both of us.

Italics--mine.

No less an artist than Joyce Carol Oates -- and far too many others to name -- would cease to work were such an untenable and rigid (pole up butt) position given force.  Mayanlee: as artists and models go, you're the real deal.  Why even think of depriving us--your audience, your photographer's collectors, galleries, publishers, and retailers (if any) of your presence in liberal (isn't that what it is?) contemporary art and illustration?  Now that would be unfair!

Sanders McNew wrote:
You are wrong.  I was asking about Melvin because I was curious, as a friendly acquaintance of Melvin's, as to his context in making the statement.  I did not -- and do not -- suggest that Melvin would be any more right or wrong by his answer.  I did not believe that anyone who was a parent would ever have made the statement that Melvin made about kids and their invulnerability to the comments of their peers.  But even if he were, I would still have disagreed with the remark as I did.

You should learn to be a more careful reader before launching accusations like that.

Sanders.

If you disagreed with the statement regardless and it wouldn't make him more right or wrong, why ASK then?
This's gone completely off from the topic & I would happily continue it in PM's, but I doubt it would resolve anything.
Your argument was bogus and everything you say to defend the statement reinforces that, but as it's circular in nature I doubt you would ever be able to see that.
Take it as personal if you like, tho that's not my intent, this's MO on the matter & I doubt either of us would sway the other.

SLE Photography wrote:

If you disagreed with the statement regardless and it wouldn't make him more right or wrong, why ASK then?
This's gone completely off from the topic & I would happily continue it in PM's, but I doubt it would resolve anything.
Your argument was bogus and everything you say to defend the statement reinforces that, but as it's circular in nature I doubt you would ever be able to see that.
Take it as personal if you like, tho that's not my intent, this's MO on the matter & I doubt either of us would sway the other.

Again, you should learn to be a more careful reader.  Stick to selling wine, if you're any good at that.  Sanders.

theda wrote:
I make it a policy never to do any work I can't show my parents.  So, to an extent, the reason I'm not out there doing softcore porn is because I don't want to hurt or alienate people important to me. Other than that, I'm not likely to make any concessions. 'Cause I'm a bitch.

I am in an especially difficult situation.  My family is evangelical, yet I am super-close to them and they are all I have.  However, they consider even the fact that I show cleavage to be obscene, and my implied nudes would be outright pornography to them.  I take great measures to conceal any work I do from them...and it's tough.

commart wrote:
Why even think of depriving us--your audience, your photographer's collectors, galleries, publishers, and retailers (if any) of your presence in liberal (isn't that what it is?) contemporary art and illustration?  Now that would be unfair!

Aah... a statement that would have brought tears to the eyes of Erica Kane (Susan Lucci of All My Children) to know "her public" was out there.

In all seriousness, modeling, in the relative scale of Things To Count As Important In One's Life (a/ka/ The Big Picture) would be lower down the totem pole if I were forced to pick and choose.

io wrote:

I am in an especially difficult situation.  My family is evangelical, yet I am super-close to them and they are all I have.  However, they consider even the fact that I show cleavage to be obscene, and my implied nudes would be outright pornography to them.  I take great measures to conceal any work I do from them...and it's tough.

My mother is a southern baptist Sunday school teacher...I'm not kidding...I know how it is to have fundamentalist parents nodding in disapproval.  Mom and I have agreed to disagree about what I do...in other words we don't talk about it (lol)...perhaps you can reach the same agreement with your parents one day.  Good luck with it:-)

Sanders McNew wrote:

Again, you should learn to be a more careful reader.  Stick to selling wine, if you're any good at that.  Sanders.

I was attacking your logic & reasoning, not you personally.  This personal attack simply reinforces my belief that you were operating emotionally and not rationally.

SLE Photography wrote:
The 60's & 70's revolutions weren't about doing whatever you want at the expense of others, they were about not limiting yourself due to the simple predjudices & biases of others.
They have at least as much responsibility to try & respect & understand you & your choices as you do theirs.

Well said!

BodyPainter Rich  wrote:
Here is the thing...if you are shooting porn for money, you would be selling out your family (or his happiness with his family) for money. Money is really not all that important in the scheme of things. BUt you are not shooting porn.

Well, some (looking pointedly at Melvin) would say that any work that contains images of the female form that creates some kind of arousal is porn. We've seen just in this thread that various people's threshold for what they consider to be porn is very low.  For others, anything that takes away focus of one partner away from their SO, just by the act of looking at it, is porn.  And admittedly, I've done work that seriously skirts the fine line.  I just don't do CHEAP. 

BodyPainter Rich  wrote:
You are a creative partner in some amazing artwork. You are expressing ideas, beliefs, and feelings to the world. Not the least of these ideas is that you can be over 40 and still an object of sexual power, personal beauty, and artistic strength. Now art is an expression of YOU, and YOU have been chosen by your SO who values the very essence of what you are. Your art would appear, at least to me, to carry a very powerful essence of YOU as well.

Yes, that's how I think of it and what I hope to convey whenever I shoot (thanx for that, by the way) but I don't begrudge others their vision regarding sexuality, age, whatever. I'm sorry if they don't get it, but some can be comfortable with the concept, some get jealous and some simply will never be comfortable with the idea that the multi-faceted human makes a whole human being and that's the way we were made to be.

BodyPainter Rich  wrote:
(This is also why I would absolutely LOVE to shoot with you someday soon, you bring some serious intensity and personal power to your shoots and it shows)

Someday... someday....no... really... I mean it.... 

BodyPainter Rich  wrote:
Your SO loves you, and is probably REALLY turned on by the you captured in your images. He is a big boy and I'm sure he knew there could be some ramification if/when his family found things out. He has chosen to stand by you (he'd be a fool not to) and that is a great thing. I guess what I am saying is, either he is dumb (which I doubt) or he knew what he was getting into when he signed on with you. He made his choice (to his credit) and while it may be an uncomfortable situation for a bit it is your duty to follow your heart, and his duty to support you or get the hell out of dodge. My bet is he'll stick around!

Yes, he does and to his credit, he is steadfast. It gets away from the original question, but these last couple of days (and seeing so many cogent viewpoints) have morphed the focus somewhat. I'm simply grateful and humbled to know such a man of character.

Mayanlee wrote:
LOL... Yeah... you should... you'll find Melvin to be a wonderful conversationalist.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
That's just her diplomatic way of saying that I talk too much.

Hee hee... you know, I probably talk to much too.. my models don't, but that's because of the photos I take. 

Of course, one day I hope Mayan will visit my studio for my camera... 

Zunaphoto wrote:
Well I always support the underdog in family squabbles and I think I read most of the posts, but, can someone tell me why her profile is now denied?  Love to see it.

Check out MODELS forum... "Mayan Lee sends her regards..." :'(

mollie_lane wrote:

Check out MODELS forum... "Mayan Lee sends her regards..." :'(

I got nothing except,  I need to have coffee with Miss Mayan lee soon and doesn't Mollie's new avatar look great.  What a beauty.

MHana wrote:
I got nothing except,  I need to have coffee with Miss Mayan lee soon and doesn't Mollie's new avatar look great.  What a beauty.

Awwwwww Markiesan...you always bring a smile to my face and heart!

As for Mayan, I am sure you have her email, so drop her a note. I know she would love
coffee and conversation with the King of the Land of No-Nonsense.

And, WHAT are you still doing up, Sport?
It is WAYYYYYYYYY past your bedtime.
WHERE is Hanachan?
It is time for her to drag you off to bed...Mr. Sandman is waiting!

So be a good boy...
And say Nightie night now!

Night Night Markiesan!
Sweet Dreams...
The King of the Cwazy Wand of No-Nonsense needs rest...LOTS of it!

Mowrie Wane

Mayanlee wrote:
One of the more interesting concepts in today's society (or maybe it's roots really came from my generation and even a little earlier with the 60's) is the notion of only doing what makes us individually happy... all others must either a) heel, or b) screw off. I've often wondered whether it isn't the burgeoning prevalence of that attitude which hasn't seriously crippled society's feeling of community as a whole rather than a set of special interest groups.

I'm certainly grateful he defends and stands by me, but there's always that residual feeling that family is family; you stick together no matter what.  Perhaps it's cultural altho I certainly couldn't be said to toe the family line on anything, so who knows.

Thoughtful as ever, Mayan. It does seem we are, and become more so, a self absorbed group of spoiled 5 year olds as we "evolve". Is community important? (it appears so - even if that community has moved online.)
Agrarian society plummeted into the industrial age and while still not caught up plummeted again into the technology age. debit cards and cybersex. hard to feel connected to the value of the work you do when the reward comes direct deposit and you never get to hold the green in your hand (let alone eat what you have grown).
I fear at this stage, there are none to be true to other than ourselves individually... I feel the difference. I wonder if this is apparent to those younguns just coming up?