J. Stakeman wrote:
Is it just guys like taking pictures of women looking hot, and there is a whole shadow industry portfolio work, like in fashion, for aspiring photographers, models, and workshop runners, to trade money around in a giant circle whenever someone's skill or body of work is out paced by their egos or feeling self worth?

I think you've got your answer right there.

Eric Foltz

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
You have asked the million dollar question.  Most people here are going to answer the opposite, but the truth is that the money is in commercial photography, not glamour.  Editorial is important, but it doesn't tend to pay a lot.  It is more for exposure.

Most full-time photographers who do glamour it is more of an "also glamour."  They use it as a fill-in to bring in money during the gaps.   Making money in this business is getting money wherever you can.

There are some guys that make a full-time living from websites as well.  Most are more adult than what we classify as glamour, but there are some that do glamour.

Except for the bigger names, in general, it is difficult to make a living on glamour alone.

ditto.

J. Stakeman wrote:
Are there agencies of shorter curvier models, that the liquor, beer, cigarette, car, tire, swimsuit, music video, calendar art directors cast from?

Is all the money coming in from promotional modeling, i.e. being hot in person. and that fuels aspiring promo models to spend improving their portfolios?  Do promotional models even have/need portfolios... or do they just audition?

Is it just guys like taking pictures of women looking hot, and there is a whole shadow industry portfolio work, like in fashion, for aspiring photographers, models, and workshop runners, to trade money around in a giant circle whenever someone's skill or body of work is out paced by their egos or feeling self worth?

With all the talk of sex sells... my question is... who is buying all these sexy pictures, or whom do they imagine will buy them, or procure their services?

I mean clearly people want to look at women looking hot, the image views on glamour models can attest to that, but what do you do with all those eyes once you have them looking?

Just curious.

I know of a few agencies that cast glamour models for car shows, conventions etc...they walk around looking hot and making everyone glad they attended...It pays pretty well but you don't work a lot in this kind of work unless you're in Vegas maybe NY and LA but Vegas has a lot of this type of work.   I don't think they need portfolios but they need a full body and a head shot at least.   

I think you hit the nail on the head...most of the guys that shoot this stuff just do it to see partly nekid women   I wont let the girls off easy on this either, there are plenty of females out there that get off on being photographed nude, partly nude etc.   Horny GWC meets exhibitionist and you have a great combination and I see it all the time. 

I'm sick of seeing the men take the heat for these shoots,
If you look around on sites like these you see a lot of women that could never model hunting for someone to shoot them  looking Sexy...nude or semi nude...they like turning GWC on, they love being photographed....its not just dirty old men that get off on whipping it out for strangers   they're exhibitionists and they instigate a lot of what you see on the net...they are partly responible for GWC.

Mary wrote:
I'm sick of seeing the men take the heat for these shoots,
If you look around on sites like these you see a lot of women that could never model hunting for someone to shoot them  looking Sexy...nude or semi nude...they like turning GWC on, they love being photographed....its not just dirty old men that get off on whipping it out for strangers   they're exhibitionists and they instigate a lot of what you see on the net...they are partly responible for GWC.

That is what I like about you, you are not afraid to speak your mind.

Mary wrote:
I think you hit the nail on the head...most of the guys that shoot this stuff just do it to see partly nekid women   I wont let the girls off easy on this either, there are plenty of females out there that get off on being photographed nude, partly nude etc.   Horny GWC meets exhibitionist and you have a great combination and I see it all the time.

As you say, it can be a symbiotic relationship or at least mutually beneficial situation rather than the predatory behavior it's often labelled.

Sometimes decent photographs comes from those sessions, though that appears much less common, since it's not the real purpose for either participant.  Once I figured out that other people's goals weren't the same as mine it became a lot easier for me to deal with their photography. (You know, the photographers who have been shooting for 20 years but whose results are 99.44% the same as they were the week they first picked up the camera.)

Different goals, but the same labels: "photographer" and "model". Ambiguous, alas.

J. Stakeman wrote:
Man.... I was hoping for insight.

So glamour is basically eye candy that exists more because people want to make it rather than  do anything with it?  A byproduct of exihibitionists and the men with cameras in their hands, who want to be around them?

All that content with nothing to do...

No.  Now that they make that little blue pill, there's an option of doing something with that content for a lot more guys.

KM von Seidl wrote:
No.  Now that they make that little blue pill, there's an option of doing something with that content for a lot more guys.

Really you think?  With all the actual porn, and professionally hot people that's out there

Glamour is a sort of Jr. Porn?

J. Stakeman wrote:

Really you think?  With all the actual porn, and professionally hot people that's out there

Glamour is a sort of Jr. Porn?

what do you think?

Glamour means different things to different people.

There is old school glamour, which I think of as mainly movie stills and promotional copy that is most popular as shot by Hurrell, etc.

There is old school pinup, Betty Grable and then the romantic version like Mortensen.

And then the billion modern varities.

Someone is shooting it and there are obviously some people viewing it.  I don't know if anyone is making money off of it, but certainly someone like it it would seem.

Mary wrote:

I know of a few agencies that cast glamour models for car shows, conventions etc...they walk around looking hot and making everyone glad they attended...It pays pretty well but you don't work a lot in this kind of work unless you're in Vegas maybe NY and LA but Vegas has a lot of this type of work.   I don't think they need portfolios but they need a full body and a head shot at least.   

I think you hit the nail on the head...most of the guys that shoot this stuff just do it to see partly nekid women   I wont let the girls off easy on this either, there are plenty of females out there that get off on being photographed nude, partly nude etc.   Horny GWC meets exhibitionist and you have a great combination and I see it all the time. 

I'm sick of seeing the men take the heat for these shoots,
If you look around on sites like these you see a lot of women that could never model hunting for someone to shoot them  looking Sexy...nude or semi nude...they like turning GWC on, they love being photographed....its not just dirty old men that get off on whipping it out for strangers   they're exhibitionists and they instigate a lot of what you see on the net...they are partly responible for GWC.

that is sad. i dont understand girls who aspire to that sort of thing. porn is something you do out of desperation, n ot because you want to

Tati wrote:
that is sad. i dont understand girls who aspire to that sort of thing.

I'm confused.. your profile states that you are looking to have your picture taken to enter Maxim's hometown hotties competition thing...

Is it just to see your name/image in print?  Cause that is really neat (I have to admit, I did a little dance when I first say my name listed as a contributing photographer on a magazine).

Is it some sort of validation of your hometown hottness? Or is this a promotional tool for something else?

Tati wrote:
i dont understand girls who aspire to that sort of thing. porn is something you do out of desperation, n ot because you want to

If it's what they aspire to they ARE doing it because they want to.

While I don't understand it either, I'm certainly wouldn't claim they're only doing it out of desparation--especially not right after saying it's their dream.

Mary wrote:
I think you hit the nail on the head...most of the guys that shoot this stuff just do it to see partly nekid women   I wont let the girls off easy on this either, there are plenty of females out there that get off on being photographed nude, partly nude etc.   Horny GWC meets exhibitionist and you have a great combination and I see it all the time. 

I'm sick of seeing the men take the heat for these shoots,
If you look around on sites like these you see a lot of women that could never model hunting for someone to shoot them  looking Sexy...nude or semi nude...they like turning GWC on, they love being photographed....its not just dirty old men that get off on whipping it out for strangers   they're exhibitionists and they instigate a lot of what you see on the net...they are partly responible for GWC.

I agree with every word of this, Mary.  I think that many people who say "I want to be a model" actually mean "I want to look hot/sexy/desirable/etc in a photograph."  Not saying that there's anything necessarily wrong with that, per se, just pointing it out.  There's an overall distaste for the stereotypical "GWC" but most people don't show the least bit of contempt for the models who want nothing more that what a GWC can provide.  It is certainly a two-way street...

Mary wrote:
I'm sick of seeing the men take the heat for these shoots,
If you look around on sites like these you see a lot of women that could never model hunting for someone to shoot them  looking Sexy...nude or semi nude...they like turning GWC on, they love being photographed....its not just dirty old men that get off on whipping it out for strangers   they're exhibitionists and they instigate a lot of what you see on the net...they are partly responible for GWC.

Preach it, Sistah!

Tati wrote:
that is sad. i dont understand girls who aspire to that sort of thing. porn is something you do out of desperation, n ot because you want to

I know several people in the industry and many others I do not know that will tell you differently. Some people love sex, some people are also exhibitionists. Combining the two things they like to do and getting paid for it? hell yea!And you do understand that some guys get the same feeling/end result from looking through Maxim magazine, the one whos home town hotties competition you want to get in on, as some guys get from watching full on porn. Especially the junior high and high school boys who can`t so easily get ahold of actual porn in some situations. That skin of yours crawlin yet?

J. Stakeman wrote:
I like to classify genres by how they are sold, or what it is that they do... rather than what they contain... makes things easier.

I hesitate to call glamour jr. porn, only because it doesn't seem to be sold that way, or packaged.  The spreads are often accompanied by interviews or articles or something... which again is a celebrity thing.

I'm just confused... it seems that "glamour" doesn't work... It's all editorial... lots of culture/men's interest magazines.. Maxim, King, Smooth use it to supplement the normal editorial photography load... but then it seems to stop.

I think there is a lot of confusion about the mission and genre of the current crop of young men's magazines exactly are.  It seems that a lot of models and photographers are missing the fact that magazines like Maxim, FHM and Stuff are entertainment and lifestyle magazines, not beauty/glamour magazines.  They often use glamour-style photography of notable personalities to illustrate their stories, but they are not in the business to photograph or display unknown, unpublished models simply based on their beauty.

As far as an being a catagory within the professional photography industry, you are correct, it is primarily an editorial based genre.  It does not have as many commercial applications as compared to fashion or portait photography.  There are certain catagories of products that can potentially choose to use typically glamour-styled images to illustrate or advertise their products, but high-end fashion photographers will also compete for those projects. 

Glamour as a genre does lack the stair-step progression of projects that fashion has.  The traditional career path of a successful fashion photographer begins with gathering tearsheets in magazines, then shooting catalogs while developing experience in production and a broader range of contact, and finally competing for major advertising campaigns.  There is not a natural progression of opportunity for photographers who shoot strickly in the glamour genre, but there is a broad desire among both models and photographers to participate.

A fairly apt parallel is sports action photography.  It is also primarily editorial-based, without obvious catalog or advertising components.  While sports action photography might be used to advertise certain products, much of the advertising work for sports products are done by fashion or celebrity photographers.

That doesn't mean that glamour is not a worthy pursuit.  Currently there seems to be far more people desiring to provide imagery than there are outlets to publish it which has devalued it to a certain extent.  I would estimate that there are only a few dozen photographers who are making a full-time living and confining their shooting to glamour-style projects.  There is a larger number who see a significant percentage (25% +) of all their professional photography projects dealing with glamour-styled images.  I would count myself in that catagory, but currently I make a larger percentage of my income from fashion and commercial projects.  There is an even larger group of photogrpahers who devote a lot of their interest to glamour but make little or no money from it.

I would imagine that there is a similar break-down among models.

Eric Foltz wrote:
One other unmentioned segment in "glamour" photography is the workshop industry where shooters who have developed their skills to the point someone might want to learn from them puts on workshops.

This is also web-based in that most of the people teaching them are really only "known" on the internet.

Eric Foltz

this is I imagine the most lucritive of the glamour business. Web guy that never made it as photographer gets some web girls to stand still (nekid or semi nekid) for a bunch of GWC types...they all start clicking away, making cute comments, gesturing to each other and falling all over each other to get the model to notice them...they then go back to their cheap hotel, drink and talk about what a great day it was ...the idoloize the god that put the shoot together and taught them everything he knows (that took about 10 minutes out of their busy shoot schedule but they were polite about it)  The photographer/teacher/god  takes everyones money, made a bunch of horny guys happy and so its a win win.  Does it get any better then this?

Mary wrote:

this is I imagine the most lucritive of the glamour business. Web guy that never made it as photographer gets some web girls to stand still (nekid or semi nekid) for a bunch of GWC types...they all start clicking away, making cute comments, gesturing to each other and falling all over each other to get the model to notice them...they then go back to their cheap hotel, drink and talk about what a great day it was ...the idoloize the god that put the shoot together and taught them everything he knows (that took about 10 minutes out of their busy shoot schedule but they were polite about it)  The photographer/teacher/god  takes everyones money, made a bunch of horny guys happy and so its a win win.  Does it get any better then this?

You mean you can make money this way?  Hmmmmm.... wheels are turning now....

ShoreShot Studios wrote:
You mean you can make money this way?  Hmmmmm.... wheels are turning now....

I'm kidding of course.... my $$$ comes from family portraits, weddings and junior sports.... glam models..... they don't pay, nor any publications really for that type of work.

Mary wrote:
Horny GWC meets exhibitionist and you have a great combination and I see it all the time.

AND not just in glamour...

-Don

Tati wrote:
that is sad. i dont understand girls who aspire to that sort of thing. porn is something you do out of desperation, n ot because you want to

You are boring.

Tati wrote:

that is sad. i dont understand girls who aspire to that sort of thing. porn is something you do out of desperation, n ot because you want to

I'm not sure why it's sad.  It might be a desperation thing for YOU, but adult work has a long & storied history and PLENTY of willing participants who do it because they want to.  And it's not all male-driven, Jenna Jameson has made herself a multi-millionaire thru her porn work.  There's another young lady, Aurora Snow, who got in to doing some porn to make some extra $ while getting a business degree.  She found she was good at it & liked it and could make ridiculous sums doing it, so she dropped school & did it full time for a couple of years & has now parlayed it in to her own production company, scripting & directing the films, a gig with Playboy TV, etc etc.  And she's going back to finish her degree to help her manage all her $.
Admittedly, these 2 are the exceptions, not the rule, but I have met & spoken to several female adult film stars who did well & loved their jobs.  As one of them said "I could've made a living another way, but it sure beat flipping burgers, I got paid better and made a LOT more."

The perception that any sort of sex industry work is always negative & exploitative & a mode of last resort galls me.  Just because someone feels that way, s/he shouldn't assign those feelings to everyone else.

Mary wrote:

this is I imagine the most lucritive of the glamour business. Web guy that never made it as photographer gets some web girls to stand still (nekid or semi nekid) for a bunch of GWC types...they all start clicking away, making cute comments, gesturing to each other and falling all over each other to get the model to notice them...they then go back to their cheap hotel, drink and talk about what a great day it was ...the idoloize the god that put the shoot together and taught them everything he knows (that took about 10 minutes out of their busy shoot schedule but they were polite about it)  The photographer/teacher/god  takes everyones money, made a bunch of horny guys happy and so its a win win.  Does it get any better then this?

This is not a new thing related to the internet.  If you look at Betty Page's history, she (and her contemporaries like Bunny Yeager when she was still posing instead of shooting) often posed for "camera clubs" where their agemts would book them for a day with a group of amateur guys.
I'm not disputing your perspective, just offering a bit of history  ;-)

Mary wrote:
this is I imagine the most lucritive of the glamour business. Web guy that never made it as photographer gets some web girls to stand still (nekid or semi nekid) for a bunch of GWC types...they all start clicking away, making cute comments, gesturing to each other and falling all over each other to get the model to notice them...they then go back to their cheap hotel, drink and talk about what a great day it was ...the idoloize the god that put the shoot together and taught them everything he knows (that took about 10 minutes out of their busy shoot schedule but they were polite about it)  The photographer/teacher/god  takes everyones money, made a bunch of horny guys happy and so its a win win.  Does it get any better then this?

As a "web guy" who makes money from putting on workshops I have to aggree with most of what you said...espically the win/win part.

I provide payment for models, & MUA. I provide a reason for the GWC to go out and purchase new camera and lighting gear.  I also provide instruction so that some of the GWCs will become photographers.

Will most of the participants become professional photographers... no they are smarter then that ( why would a stock broker who makes more in an hour then I do in a week give that up)... they just want to become better, more experienced with their hobby.

Oh and these guys sure don't idolize me...

grs

I mean as an industry.

Here's how it works:

I want to take photos of a model, from a distance away, at the base of a cliff, in various pieces of clothing. I think it would be a stunning portrayal of the insignificance of humanity, or the frustration of reaching our goals, or the immenseness of the world around us. I'm probably wrong, but stick with me.

A number of models whom I then contact decline to work with me because my style of photography, without strobes, without softboxes, without lovely and artistic makeup, isn't going to make them look glamorous. And nudity or implied nudity just won't look good for them without some glamourous setting to it.

Another number of models whom I contact would be glad to work with me for $100/hour or $150/hour because that's what it takes for a glamour model to work with me.

So I mope around for a bit, wondering if I should pursue glamour, because that's what the hot models want - but just like my stuff doesn't appeal to glamour people, their stuff doesn't appeal to me, so I'm not going there. It's a big world, with all different types, and if I've got the minority view, I guess I'll try to appeal to the minority who likes what I do.

I'm kidding, mostly, of course. I've always been able to find a nice model who willingly helps me with my stuff. But there is an element out there of what I talked about.

Mary wrote:
I'm sick of seeing the men take the heat for these shoots,
If you look around on sites like these you see a lot of women that could never model hunting for someone to shoot them  looking Sexy...nude or semi nude...they like turning GWC on, they love being photographed....its not just dirty old men that get off on whipping it out for strangers   they're exhibitionists and they instigate a lot of what you see on the net...they are partly responible for GWC.

You're absolutely right. Most women aspiring towards glamour work seem interested in the exhgibitionist element and ego-boost.  There is a little money to be made from the GWC looking to take pretty pictures of a pretty girl, but not enough to make a career of it, even temporarily, for most. 

And yes, as glamour exists today, it pretty much is porn lite (40% less bodily fluids!). And, really, who wants porn lite when you can so easily get the real thing?

Michael Sloane wrote:

ditto.

Yuppers

Merlinpix wrote:
Then of course there's erotic glamour: ie men's magazines. The llamas have to get some sort of naked to make it work. If you hustle and shoot well and often you can make a living at it. I have, but it's by far harder than a lot of better paying jobs.

Paul

No it's not.
if girls just take their clothes off for pics and expect money to fall into their laps, then they're sadly mistaken.