Scaramanga wrote:
I recently contacted an old make up artist friend of mine I used to test with all the time. She has since gone on to bigger and better things and is with a pretty well-known agency. Still, I know these MUAs don't work EVERY day. They still have down time when nothing is going on.

What's a fair rate to offer such a MUA if you want to shoot with them without going through their agency and during their off time?

the problem is that downtime can change at any moment.  The reason I don't do testing, even for pay is that a job may come up the day prior to the test and I would have to take it...unless the test is going to pay me $700.00 and that probably isn't going to happen.  I hate to cancel stuff at the last minute but it would happen 50% of the time because most of us with and without agents if we work a lot can get booked and do get booked last minute A LOT....

If we are busy artists we would rather have a day off then work for less then what we are used to making...that said, it depends on how busy this artist is at the time you reach her.  If she is having a really slow time she may say sure...$200.00 to $300.00 for 5 hours....If you have a top agency model, better then models she has now in her book, she may do it for nothing but if she is with an agent she probably has a lot of great models in her book.  If you're an old friend and she likes you, she may do it for even cheaper

I would just call her and ask her what she would charge for a portfolio shoot.

Deadly Design Make-up wrote:
it's funny how in the states testing is done like a tfp

I disagree that it is, it certainly isn't in my market.

90% of my tests are paid, I get paid and the MUA gets paid.  The agency likes me to style my own tests to keep the costs down which I have no problem doing but if there's a stylist they get paid too.

There are two situations which are different.  First, if a new talent comes on board and comes from a family where the household income is really low and they literally just can't afford to pay $450+ for a test, I'll generally do them on occasion for any of the agencies I work with regularly.  In that case, I find creative talent that isn't repped and looking to get signed.  Someone who has a book that maybe needs improvement, came from a different market and needs shots that work for this market, or maybe someone who's worked extensively in broadcast/film locally but hasn't done much print.  I don't take random people, I take people that the agencies are eyeing as potential but just aren't quite ready yet.  They don't get paid.

The second situation is when I'm pulling something together that's for me, not the talent.  If I have an idea for something that I want to do that ISN'T something that would be useful for a new model's book then I'll put together the team myself.  I definately don't expect them to pay for that on my end.  I only do that with more experienced, working talent generally.  In that case, sometimes I pay the MUA/Stylist and other times I don't.  I pick the person I feel is right for the job first, and let that determine if I need to pay them or not.  (Some of the MUAs I work with regularly and give a lot of paid testing will do it for free as a professional courtesy since they know I'd be paying for it, others who would likely also use the shots themselves will too.)

At least in the Dallas market, most testing isn't done like TFCD.  Maybe other markets, but here it's heavily paid on the make up side.

Andy

A. H A M I L T O N wrote:

I disagree that it is, it certainly isn't in my market.

90% of my tests are paid, I get paid and the MUA gets paid.  The agency likes me to style my own tests to keep the costs down which I have no problem doing but if there's a stylist they get paid too.

There are two situations which are different.  First, if a new talent comes on board and comes from a family where the household income is really low and they literally just can't afford to pay $450+ for a test, I'll generally do them on occasion for any of the agencies I work with regularly.  In that case, I find creative talent that isn't repped and looking to get signed.  Someone who has a book that maybe needs improvement, came from a different market and needs shots that work for this market, or maybe someone who's worked extensively in broadcast/film locally but hasn't done much print.  I don't take random people, I take people that the agencies are eyeing as potential but just aren't quite ready yet.  They don't get paid.

The second situation is when I'm pulling something together that's for me, not the talent.  If I have an idea for something that I want to do that ISN'T something that would be useful for a new model's book then I'll put together the team myself.  I definately don't expect them to pay for that on my end.  I only do that with more experienced, working talent generally.  In that case, sometimes I pay the MUA/Stylist and other times I don't.  I pick the person I feel is right for the job first, and let that determine if I need to pay them or not.  (Some of the MUAs I work with regularly and give a lot of paid testing will do it for free as a professional courtesy since they know I'd be paying for it, others who would likely also use the shots themselves will too.)

At least in the Dallas market, most testing isn't done like TFCD.  Maybe other markets, but here it's heavily paid on the make up side.

Andy

ohh sorry i was talking with 3 other americans and they all told me that tests are not usually paid. honestly i can remeber where they are from . But I am glad that you have a nice sliding scale i aswell have the same thing but when a test comes up and it's not my direction i am just doing make-up and it's not for my book i get payed. and I like it when that happens because you cant pay rent with pictures

Scaramanga wrote:
Thanks to everyone who responded. This make up artist is with The Wall Group and has some fantastic tear sheets at this point. She also did the make up on the model in my avatar. I offered her $150 to shoot on an off day, but she said (in accord with Mary's post) that she simply could not block any time off for fear of potential scheduling conflicts. Ultimately, she asked me to go through her agency so that there wouldn't be any such conflicts (at least that was the pretext --I think there may be a little bit of snobbery toward testing going on now). And I told her that that wouldn't work because I know how agencies inflate their fees to make their commission and I can't afford that.

It looks like we're at an impasse. It sucks because in the past I've worked well with her. She is low key, unobtrusive, and willing to hold the occasional scrim. :-) But who knows now. She may have a big head. :-(

Now come on...there are other options besides having a big head. If you suddenly found yourself shooting with major super models and getting paid $500 daily by Maxim, Playboy, Sports Illustrated, or whatever...would you be in a hurry to test or shoot portfolio shots for young models for $150 a day? It may be, but it's not always about having a "big head" sometimes it's just about changed priorities or trying different things. It may be snobbery, or it may just be a person who is polite and doing other things now.

Maybe $150 was great for her before, but not near enough now. I know when I had kids my rates went WAY up, because now if I leave town for a gig I'm not just getting paid for my time, I'm getting paid for my kids to go without their Daddy for a couple days as well. Maybe she has a boyfriend, or a hobby, or something else she wants to do with her spare time that is worth more than $150 to her.

Just saying, people have their reasons.

BodyPainter Rich  wrote:
Now come on...there are other options besides having a big head. If you suddenly found yourself shooting with major super models and getting paid $500 daily by Maxim, Playboy, Sports Illustrated, or whatever...would you be in a hurry to test or shoot portfolio shots for young models for $150 a day? It may be, but it's not always about having a "big head" sometimes it's just about changed priorities or trying different things. It may be snobbery, or it may just be a person who is polite and doing other things now.

Maybe $150 was great for her before, but not near enough now. I know when I had kids my rates went WAY up, because now if I leave town for a gig I'm not just getting paid for my time, I'm getting paid for my kids to go without their Daddy for a couple days as well. Maybe she has a boyfriend, or a hobby, or something else she wants to do with her spare time that is worth more than $150 to her.

Just saying, people have their reasons.

That's a fair assessment and you may be right. There are nuances to this particular relationship that I didn't bother to elaborate on here and probably couldn't put into words even if I wanted to. Let's just say, I've always sensed that this particular person was trying to escape the TFP/testing realm and she now seems particularly happy to be done with it now. In other words, it's not so much that she can't do this job with me, but her refusal to do so is some kind of affirmation to her that she has moved up in the MUA caste system. As opposed to someone who never had any insecurity about testing to begin with and therefore wouldn't feel uncomfortable revisiting that terrain.

And yes, I think she is trying to be polite. Perhaps that's what irks me most. She really wants to say, "Begone! I'm done with you and your lowly bretheren." But the politician in her says, well, you never know, so let me give him the "nice no" (hence, the agency scheduling excuse).

I don't know. I hope you're right and I'm wrong. The world would be a better place if your innocuous and totally plausible explanations were true.

Scaramanga wrote:
Thanks to everyone who responded. This make up artist is with The Wall Group and has some fantastic tear sheets at this point. She also did the make up on the model in my avatar. I offered her $150 to shoot on an off day, but she said (in accord with Mary's post) that she simply could not block any time off for fear of potential scheduling conflicts. Ultimately, she asked me to go through her agency so that there wouldn't be any such conflicts (at least that was the pretext --I think there may be a little bit of snobbery toward testing going on now). And I told her that that wouldn't work because I know how agencies inflate their fees to make their commission and I can't afford that.

It looks like we're at an impasse. It sucks because in the past I've worked well with her. She is low key, unobtrusive, and willing to hold the occasional scrim. :-) But who knows now. She may have a big head. :-(

Ok, this has nothing to do with a big head...it's pure economics.  I did the same thing when I left the testing scene.  I just started sending people to my agent...knowing full well they were not going to pay my rate.

  This has nothing to do with the artist thinking he or she is too good to work with you. It really is the fact that when you work a lot and make $600.00 to $800.00 a day (going rate on the West Coast) you really do need time off, we have families and hobbies and life like everyone and if we book tests, even paid ones we are taking time away from our families.  A lot of us do not even take 1/2 day jobs anymore...I still do but there are a few in my market that must be even busier then I am because they flat say no....full day rate or I take the day off.

  The Gods honest truth is that I dont feel I am too good to work with anyone.....I just feel that I need a few days off now and then and if a job isn't paying my full rate I find that time better spent just being with my family and doing fun stuff.  I work 4 or 5 days a week....some of those are nights (the middle of the night)  there are times when I have an all night media tour and then a day job to follow with no time to sleep....sometimes I am up 24 hours without even a nap....this explains why I am such a B$%#^ at times    


Testing is something we all start out doing, paid and unpaid...there is nothing wrong with it but you shouldnt sacrifice full rate jobs, thats bad business...makes no sense.

I can tell you why this artist is too busy to test anymore...same reason I am, you said it

"She is low key, unobtrusive, and willing to hold the occasional scrim. :-)"   this is EXACTLY what the clients like to see.  A team player that will jump in and do whatever needs to be done and doesnt make the entire job about her....quiet, get it done types, get along with everyone on the set and make everyones job easier....that explains why she no longer tests.  Many artists get on jobs, start name dropping, try to impress everyone on the set...act like divas...do what they want and forget about the client....They won't hold the reflector, they wont do anything that isn't in their job description. 

If I were you I would be happy for the artist that she has moved on to more money, it sounds like she worked hard to get where she is...trust me, she kissed a lot of tush and worked her a$$ off to say "no thank you" to lower paid testing wrok.

Mary wrote:
Ok, this has nothing to do with a big head...it's pure economics.  I did the same thing when I left the testing scene.  I just started sending people to my agent...knowing full well they were not going to pay my rate.

  This has nothing to do with the artist thinking he or she is too good to work with you. It really is the fact that when you work a lot and make $600.00 to $800.00 a day (going rate on the West Coast) you really do need time off, we have families and hobbies and life like everyone and if we book tests, even paid ones we are taking time away from our families.  A lot of us do not even take 1/2 day jobs anymore...I still do but there are a few in my market that must be even busier then I am because they flat say no....full day rate or I take the day off.

  The Gods honest truth is that I dont feel I am too good to work with anyone.....I just feel that I need a few days off now and then and if a job isn't paying my full rate I find that time better spent just being with my family and doing fun stuff.  I work 4 or 5 days a week....some of those are nights (the middle of the night)  there are times when I have an all night media tour and then a day job to follow with no time to sleep....sometimes I am up 24 hours without even a nap....this explains why I am such a B$%#^ at times    


Testing is something we all start out doing, paid and unpaid...there is nothing wrong with it but you shouldnt sacrifice full rate jobs, thats bad business...makes no sense.

I can tell you why this artist is too busy to test anymore...same reason I am, you said it

"She is low key, unobtrusive, and willing to hold the occasional scrim. :-)"   this is EXACTLY what the clients like to see.  A team player that will jump in and do whatever needs to be done and doesnt make the entire job about her....quiet, get it done types, get along with everyone on the set and make everyones job easier....that explains why she no longer tests.  Many artists get on jobs, start name dropping, try to impress everyone on the set...act like divas...do what they want and forget about the client....They won't hold the reflector, they wont do anything that isn't in their job description. 

If I were you I would be happy for the artist that she has moved on to more money, it sounds like she worked hard to get where she is...trust me, she kissed a lot of tush and worked her a$$ off to say "no thank you" to lower paid testing wrok.

Very interesting information and an excellent insight. I appreciate it. I understand all of what you are saying. The only part that bothers me is why refer people to your agency when you know full well they can't afford that rate? (I don't mean you personally, but her) We've known each other for a while; why not just say what you did here. I would've understood that and appreciated the honesty. Most importantly, I wouldn't have felt that she was crapping on the "realness" of our rapport by giving me that phony "go through my agent" stuff.

Also, my understanding of how agencies work with models is that they get 20% of the model's rate and 20% of the job, for a total of 40%, and they will tack the 20% in on the model's rate. So let's say a model should be $800 for the day, the agency will make it $1000 plus agency of 20% on that $1000. (I'm fudging the numbers a bit.) So the model sees $800 while the agency sees roughly $400 for a whopping total of $1200 to the client. My point is, do MUA's with agencies like the Wall Group really see $600 a day, or is it more like 350-$400 after all the agency mark-up. I only make this point to say that $350 for a day and $150 for half-day (what I offered) is pretty darn close.

Scaramanga wrote:

Very interesting information and an excellent insight. I appreciate it. I understand all of what you are saying. The only part that bothers me is why refer people to your agency when you know full well they can't afford that rate? (I don't mean you personally, but her) We've known each other for a while; why not just say what you did here. I would've understood that and appreciated the honesty. Most importantly, I wouldn't have felt that she was crapping on the "realness" of our rapport by giving me that phony "go through my agent" stuff.

Also, my understanding of how agencies work with models is that they get 20% of the model's rate and 20% of the job, for a total of 40%, and they will tack the 20% in on the model's rate. So let's say a model should be $800 for the day, the agency will make it $1000 plus agency of 20% on that $1000. (I'm fudging the numbers a bit.) So the model sees $800 while the agency sees roughly $400 for a whopping total of $1200 to the client. My point is, do MUA's with agencies like the Wall Group really see $600 a day, or is it more like 350-$400 after all the agency mark-up. I only make this point to say that $350 for a day and $150 for half-day (what I offered) is pretty darn close.

actually I dont know any artist that would work for $350.00 a day (only newbies, counter types, not pros)   You are off on your numbers.....

I get most jobs on my own and get $650.00 to $800.00 a day, If I were with a top tier agency you could add a one in front of those numbers.  I'm with local agencies...They are good but would be considered Boutique agencies I guess....my San Diego agent is one of the largest in San Diego but this is San Diego and so still not like being with Cloutier or Cestestine.....     

Heres how it works....They call and describe a job to me and ask me what I want to make AFTER their commission   I tell them $650.00 to $800.00 depending on the the job description...they then tell the client that my day rate is $960.00 for the day....they charge the Client $960.00 plus another $160.00 for agency fee.  So in reality the client pays $1120.00, I get $800.00 and the agent gets $320.00.  This is based on an $800.00 a day job.  This is still one of the lowest paid people on the shoot...remember that the agency models are each making at least $120.00 to $200.00 an hour, the photographer is making thousands a day.


I have another agent (I am not exclusive with any one)   that charges 20% to the client and takes zero from me.  She tells the client my rate  (does not inflate) and then gets 20% extra from the client for herself...

Nobody with a legit agent would work for under $400.00 a day.   


You ask why we would refer people to our angency instead of being honest and thats simple....we don't want to insult you by going from $100.00 or free to $600.00 overnight.  You will think "who does she think she is?"  "I thought we were friends"  that sort of thing.   So instead we let a 3rd party do it...that way it looks like its out of our hands and you don't take it personally.    I know exactly what she is going through and this is very hard so please understand it's not personal its just that she has paid her dues and its time to move on.  I get really tired of people thinking that artists will work for a few hundered a day because newbies do...that is due paying time, that cant last for ever and if it does we have failed as business people.   

On the net you will find mostly people dabbling in the industry, they work for next to nothing but it works out well because there they meet others dabbling that work for next to nothing....once someone breaks out of that mold and becomes successful in the working world of big clients and agents the dabblers feel hurt, belittled, whatever....a lot just don't take it well.  I hear stuff like "shes too good for us now"  "whose going to pay that?"  these types of remarks...the truth is plenty of companies pay our fees...these people arent here in big numbers (if at all)but you can't equate this with the working world.  Call an agent and ask them what TFP is.  Call an agent and ask them if you should bring an escourt to a TFP...call an agent and just mention some of the terms you see here and they will be running for a dictionary. 

This is a career for many of us...we pay our rent, our mortgage and all of our bills on our incomes as artists.  If you are going to do this you have to be very careful about what you do with you working hours...they have to be well spent.  Even though $700.00 a day sounds like a lot of money to many...it's not, we are self employeed, we pay our own health insurance we pay for our own marketing and our own equipment, our costs are very high. We dont get sick pay or vacation time...when we break a leg or an arm we go 6 months without pay....these things we save for if we are smart....we don't get retirement pay and it's hard to work much past 50 years of age for artists and stylists in this business because of the physical nature of it...that means we have to be stuffing a lot of money away. 

Photographers know what I mean, thats why most have day jobs or (the career shooters) they demand $3,000.000 and up a day...the average commercial shooter I work with makes about $3,000.00 to 5,000.00 a day (they really work per job but the break down is about $3,000.00 to 5,000 a day (yes we do talk about this stuff, I know a lot of these guys pretty well).....  so what I make as an artist is appropriate and it correlates to what everyone on the shoot makes....The artists working for a few hundered a day are most likely working for photographers that make very little and budget models working free or also a few hundered dollars...thats fine on a mom and pop local resteraunt ad but you wont see teams like this on national ad campaigns.

Scaramanga wrote:
Mary,

First off, thanks for the "book." I was wondering about a lot of the things you addressed in your email and I honestly didn't know some of it, so your post has helped clarify this some for me.

As for the numbers, it looks like the commission break down I based on modeling is pretty much the same for MUAs. I only assumed the rate was $600 because you stated that in your prior post ("when you work a lot and make $600.00 to $800.00 a day (going rate on the West Coast)").

I think there are two reasonable sides to this. One is what you've posted regarding paying your dues and needing to have security in an industry where dry spells are not unheard of and longevity is uncommon. The other is that, if you are in fact making $800 a day and working even two weeks out of the month consistently, I would think you could do a little pro bono to help out your friends that are still trying to get there. I mean, despite all your well reasoned points, somewhere in there I still hear "I've paid my dues, damn it, and I'm not doing anything below a certain level on GP." Imagine if everyone in the service industry took this attitude. There would be no free community clinics--all the doctors would have paid their dues as residents. There'd be no pro bono legal work--all the lawyers would have paid their dues as clerks in law school. I should hope that the notion of noblesse oblige has not completely disappeared from our society.

I'm an attorney by day and photographer on the side (although several years ago it was what I did for a living). I'm meeting with a make-up artist friend tomorrow who started her own line of cosmetics and failed to get a release from a photographer who shot some promotional pics for her. I'm meeting with her and preparing a release gratis--based on our past relationship. I could be charging $250 an hour.

Now the woman I mentioned in the beginning of this post is not a close friend, just good working associate. But if she is clocking out at $800 a day with the Wall Group, it would seem she could occasionally help out an old associate for the paltry sum of $150 for three hours.

That's just the other side. Personally, I understand both and think they're reasonable.

the reason the descrepency in pay is that on some jobs (makeup and hair) I get $650.00 if I do stylings as well and I do all 3 on 25% of the jobs I do...I charge $800.00    I would rather make $650.00 and just do what I love but in my market many clients want one person to do it all (less people to deal with, less chaos, less money)  so this sounds like a lot of money....It' isnt...I work 4 days on average a week, I would split that between full and 1/2 days.  I am not 21 anymore and so this is hard for me.  I carry a lot of heavy stuff, I work all night at times etc.... I need a break and when I get one I love it...I need it.   

I do give to charity.  I choose my charities wisely and they are more geared towards homeless teens and the handicapped...I have a soft spot for both.  Because I am worth more to everyone when I am working, I give money instead of time.  I could give my services to charity but really I think the cash benifits them more then my time.  I don't consider my old friends and photographers charities  

You also are a lawyer....not sure why you can't pay your artists rate?  you make $250.00 an hour!...thats more then I make, thats more then your artist makes.  Would I give my time pro bono to a lawyer?  the answer is a very hard NO.  I have nothing against lawyers but I don't consider them charity cases     but now I have an even better idea for you....

How about a service trade....I do this by the way with a few of my clients...I do makeup for the best spa on the West Coast..I do all their advertising work and in return I get credit to do what I want at the spa...I can have messages, skin treatments, facials...you name it.  How about finding an artist that will trade for legal services...I'm setting up a corportation right now and would trade services  for this with any good lawyer. 

By the way,  Need a good domain name?

I have these for sale

FirstRateLawyers.com
LegalDefenseTeam.com
LegalDefender.com
DivorceTeam.com

Mary wrote:
actually before I set up a corporation I need to register my cosmetics name so that nobody else takes it.   Any lawyer or paralegal that can do this for me I will gladly trade services with.

Mary, when you say "register" do you mean file it as a DBA (fictitious business name) for your corporation (as you probably know, a corporation as well as an individual can register a DBA)? Or do you mean trademark registration through the US Patent Office? If you mean the latter, I can conduct a preliminary search for you to find out if other confusingly similar names already exists (the trademark office will conduct its own due diligence once you apply for a trademark as well), but you would need a patent attorney to register the name for you. If you mean simply filing a fictitious business name then yes, that is something I can handle.

I've also incorporated several friends. My bread and butter, however, is business litigation. If you told me someone had sued you for breach of contract or you wanted to sue someone for unfair business competition, I'd be your man.

As for being a "good" attorney, all I can tell you is that I went to a top ranked US law school and was recently on an NBC show counseling someone on the issue of model releases. PM me if you are interested in a trade. :-)