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TFP or TFCD advise
Posted by Natalie Lynn: Natalie, thanks for the compliment on my promptness in getting the CDs out to YOU and all the Models I've worked with. Apr 18 05 10:56 pm Link This is a great discussion! (1) It's ALL negotiable, and (2) Get it in writing! The "Time for Time" could simply be called Testing which is a term that has been around long before the digital age. From what I have learned about photography history, MOST of the greatest models and photographers have done "testing" at some point in their career. The "TFP" term came along with the digital age. I've been in photography for over 20 years and have shot a lot of FREE stuff and given away many pictures in that amount of time. It's is something that I consider a part of my own education which is the most important thing to know about photography is that you will NEVER stop learning (unless you "think" you know it ALL!) because "photography" being an "Art" is constantly changing! I do not mind doing "TFP" under certain circumstances such as meeting with the model(s) previous to the shoot. We then discuss ideas for the planned shoot and that is when the negotiation happens. GET IT IN WRITING! I think that getting the photos to the model in about 2 to 3 weeks is reasonable. That has been my standard length of time from the days of my using film for everything from models to weddings. So the digital evolution has spoiled us a bit ... it's great to be able to see the images MUCH sooner! But there is still work to be done after the shoot. Now it is possible for me to deliver the finished product in a matter of days or hours to a "client" if necessary, but it does COST more for obvious reasons. If I can get the images delivered in less than 2 weeks, then it's a pleasant surprise for the model or bride. Waiting 3 months, 6 months or even a year, well that just is NOT GOOD! "TFP" can work for models and photographers, BUT AGAIN, GET IT IN WRITING! Apr 18 05 11:49 pm Link Also don't be a nag. It's one thing to call up and see how things are going every couple of weeks, but I will slow down and make someone wait who pisses me off. For instance I have a makeup artist whom I told it would take 2 weeks for me to turn around the images. She calls 3 days after the shoot and doesn't leave a message. (Now point 1, anyone who calls my voicemail and won't leave a message did not call and it'll be at least 2 weeks before I call you back) She calls everyday after and doesn't leave a message, by this point I'm ignoring her phone calls just to see when she leaves a message. I give her the disk of images 2 weeks from the day of our shoot. She asks my advice about where to get them printed, I tell her the three locations I recommend printing them (one of which is not Kinkos) and she asks me " what about Kinkos?" So to prevent the humiliation of having my images printed by inept monkeys, I offer to take them to one of my favorite labs and have them printed if she'll give me the numbers and pay me for the prints. (whoops) two weeks later she finally gives me the numbers she wants and two days later she's calling and not leaving messages again. It is now my mission in life to ignore this...MUA until the end of time. She did a fabulous job with the makeup, but I will never hire her again, nor will I ever take one of her phone calls. And of course I have yet to get her images printed, but of course she can still take her disk to Kinkos. Sorry my phone just rang for the second time today from her. I'm not assuming you are nagging, I'm just saying please don't. Shawn Apr 19 05 02:14 am Link I make it a point to burn and mail a CD with unedited images within a day or so. Apr 19 05 02:34 am Link I guess I don't know how to use the quote thing, the above was not written by me..I was using it to jump off to the pont, howe do you prevent models from posting unedited images on their sites. Three times i've made the mistake of giving out an unedited CD of the images and every time they've posted AFTER I MADE THEM PROMISE NOT TO...It makes me look bad to have obviously unedited pix out there with my name as the photog Apr 19 05 02:36 am Link Posted by vanscottie: That's why they wait for the edits. Apr 19 05 03:44 am Link IF IM WORKING FOR PRINTS - IM WORKING FOR PRINTS! iM STILL WORKING. A PHOTOGRAPHER WHO COMES TO ME ASKING FOR ME TO WORK WITH HIM IN RETURN FOR HIS WORK HAS TO BE good AND THE LAST TIME THIS HAPPENED HE was GOOD. HE ALSO ABSCONDED WITH ALL THE TOTALY NUDE INAGES AND TO DATE (6 MONTHS) NEVER SENT A SINGLE ONE IM NOT THE ONLY MODEL ON THAT SHOOT - SHE IS A PRETTY TOP MODEL - SAME TREATMENT. WE ARE BOTH SHOCKED AS HES A REALLY EXCELLENT WELL KNOWN PUBLISHED GUY & GUESS WHAT... HE WRITES FOR OMP b-) BUT WE WERE WORKING!! IT COST MONEY TO BE THERE.... ITS NOT A FAVOUR - ITS A CREATIVE COLLABORATION & IF NOT PAYING US WITH PRINTS HE OUGHT TO SEND US BOTH A CHECK. DOES ANYONE AGREE??? Posted by Udo R Photography: Posted by Marlenne D Rich: I see deadlines as mandatory for PAID work. If I do a favor for a model, we agree on a time frame when she is getting her CD or prints. Apr 19 05 07:05 am Link I MET A COUPLE OF GUYS WHO WERE MISREPRESENTING THEMSELVES ( ONE ARANGED A SHOOT IN SAN JOSE (OFF omp BASED ON ENHANCED IMAGES HE DISPLAYED THERE, THAT WE WOULD MAKE TWO OF, THESE WERE TO BE ENTERED FOR A CALENDAR FOR A CLIENT) - TURNED OUT MY REFERENCES WERE FROM NET EROTIC/GLAMOUR MODELS WHO DIDNT TELL ME ABOUT THERE SITES OR STYLE BUT RECOMMENDED HIM FOR HIS 'SKILL' THE IMAGES AND ENHANCEMENTS HE POSTS ON omp WERENT EVEN DONE BY HIM AS IT TURNED OUT! creep BUT GENERALLY, EXCEPT LET DOWN OR TWO, THE GUYS HAVE ALL BEEN COOL, WE'VE HAD A GREAT RELATIONSHIP AND MANY ARE FINE WITH ME ADJUSTING IMAGES, often i just make them really dark but I have cloned and played about with some too JUST ASK / I HAVWE PHOTOGRAPHERS ASKING ME TO E-MAIL IMAGES BACK TO THEM TO USE THESE DAYS!! I EVEN TURNED MYSELF GREEN LIKE A STAR TREK WOMAN B 4 I KNEW ANY PHOTOSHP......AND MIKE WALKER DIDNT HAVE AWORD TO SAY AGAINST IT SO I MIGHT ENTER IT IN THE FANTASY COMP LOL DEPENDS ON YOUR RELATIONSHIP AND SKILL , IF PHOTOGRAPHER IS AGAINST IT dont!!! Hmmm MAYBE I WIL CHANGE MY RELEASE TO INCUDE THIS POINT IN WRITING as a clause they can say yes or no to! THANKS Posted by Kevin Palmer: Apr 19 05 07:20 am Link I'm no expert... but wouldn't it depend on who it is offering the trade? For instance - if the photographer is offering trade work to his/her selected model - the model should have their trade reciept within a selected/agreed period of time (photographer is asking for the time)... And if the model is asking for the trade(time), the photographer should get to set the ground rules...seems only fair... Apr 19 05 07:35 am Link Posted by Reese: Stop making sense like that. Apr 19 05 02:39 pm Link Posted by Kevin Palmer: Posted by Printmakeup: You do realize that in most cases this is illegal? To alter a photo without consent of the photographer. If the photogs you work with know that you are going to edit them then that is one thing. But I would bring legal action against anyone altering my work. I understand where you are coming from, but let me just defend what i said. Normally I only do shoots with models that have great skin, and the editing I was speaking of is usually pretty minimal, consisting mainly of using the healing brush to take out an occasional zit, or maybe clear up a bit of undereye circle if the makeup couldent cover it. Im not talking about altering lighting, background ect. ect. To me if a photographer tried to sue me for copyright infringent for editing out a pimple i would laugh in his face and consider him pretty anal. BUT on the other hand I could understand a photographer getting pissed off for a mua/model completely trying to edit the pic, because then it could possibly not acurately portray the photographers original intent. Thats why I mentioned that usually this was only the case for me when i worked with photographers who A) Had worked with me enough times to trust me to not alter there images drastically (if i needed to do that i would ask them anyway) B)Knew i was competent enough with photoshop to do what is needed for my purposes, and C)Would never do anything to the photos they would not approve of. I think in general i was explaining a circumstance that exists between teams of people who are used to working with each other. I could completely understand a photographer not being comfortable with doing this with someone he doesnt know very well, or is not confident about their intent or skills. Besides if a photographer wanted me sign a release stating I would only do certain things with the images, I would be completely comfortable with that, its not my intention and never will be to try and completely alter someone elses work. If that were the case and that were needed, i would just work with another photographer where that much editing wasnt nessecary. In general I would say that from the response this post has gotton from most of the photographers on here, most models/muas best bet is to just have a clause in a release stating they will get there images within a certain time period (ex: 1-3 months, or whatever) Apr 19 05 03:58 pm Link Basically what I do is: I burn the cd righ there for the model with all the images on it. The models do sign a constent form which tells you all about the TFP and etc. Then a few days, I edit the images a bit (once I get started to edit, I can't stop!) and then send that cd out in the mail. As for editing, it might be touch ups, different lights or something like that. To have edited images can be fun to. It's all about creativity! That's my take on it. I do keep in touch with the models to let them know what is going on with the cds or when they are heading out or so forth. The reason for this is because I do work long hours with my day job (ick!) but I know the models are anxious to get their cds..so I keep in touch. (I know how it goes getting the cds in the mail since I do model on the side too!) That's my two cents of what I do with TFP/TFT. Everyone has their preference of things. I think as long as you are happy and the models are happy..then it should be fine. Sarah - Ariesroses Beautiful Disasters Photography Apr 19 05 04:14 pm Link Posted by Britt: Yes, but THAT is not the type of favour I was talking about. Reese nailed it accurately. Apr 19 05 04:19 pm Link I can't even remember the last time I asked someone to shoot me for free. Apr 19 05 11:36 pm Link Posted by theda: That means that you are getting old! Apr 20 05 09:25 am Link Posted by Kevin Palmer: Posted by Mellisa Kay: I am always the Creative/Art director for the shoot. I almost always provide hair and make-up artists as well as a fashion stylist and clothing. I request that the model show up with dirty hair (easier to style), no make-up, pedicure and manicure. I don't do Maxim/FHM or other tan model type shots so tanning isn't required. I am not knocking Melissa Kay in anyway.. She's a great model - very experienced petite model - but if she has ever spent a dime on tanning beds - she needs to get her money back because it isn't working... Apr 20 05 12:19 pm Link I belive that if a photographer can't get your shots to you within 30 days... they arent a photographer, they are a photoshop jockey and an image editor. To be honest, most of my models have a CD within 3-5 days. If you shoot it right - you don't have to spend all that time at the computer! Apr 20 05 11:30 pm Link Posted by ActionShots Photo: Fantastic. Thanks for the insult. Apr 20 05 11:47 pm Link I see several layers to this question..Let me tell you how I do things in my office.. TFP Shoots 1. If the model will take RAW images, she/he can have a disk at the end of the shoot. 2. If the model wants 4 retouched images, they get a disk at the end of the shoot and 1-2 weeks for the retouches. 3. If they want more than two retouches, they pay my design rates at a discount. As many models are asking for the photos to be retouched..IE..Fixing wrinkles, blemishes and so on...not to mention the cool stuff we can all do...and for my fellow photographer who stated something about photoshop junkies.. I am a photoshop junkie, as well a a pretty good photog.. The top magazines photoshop everything. And while many trhings can be done in camera, there are a great many rquest for added effects and lighting....I am a fan of the "get it in camera" atttitude, but in todays world, people want those special effect extras. It all personal choice...no name calling....we all worked hard to learn our crafts. We are all artist.... Paid. Client gets all agreed upon work with in two weeks on most projects..sooner on some later on others. TFP is one thing..retouching a ton of pics is another pay scale.. In a nutshell.... :-) Vance Apr 21 05 12:08 am Link Posted by emacklin: Posted by ActionShots Photo: Fantastic. Thanks for the insult. wow, ok boys before you both get you panties into a twist, I think that the first thing to remember is that photo-editing is most of the time relative to the type of subject that is being shot. The other thing to consider is that one photographers idea of a finished product is different than anothers. Some photographers like to be very detail orientated and nit pick every last detail before there comfortable putting there stamp of approval on the final product. and thats fine in fact thats great, i think that shows pride in ones work to put that much work into something, others though dont want to spend days editing the background or lighting or the model because there happy with it the way they have it. I think that as long as the photographer is doing the best he can of getting pictures to a model in a timely manner that doesnt interfer with bigger prioritys (ie-payed work.)than there should be no qualms..This thread was i believe started mainly to do with photographers who are just lazy or dont feel the models time was worth getting the pictures to her in a timely manner (ie...6 months done the road and still no pics...)But considering that most photographers who have posted in here probably do not take that long (at least i hope not), i think that if your getting a photographer to test with you for free, then you should be able to wait a few weeks to get your pics, and that should be the bottom line. If your that worried, like i said before put a clause that states the maximum amount of time your willing to wait to protect your interests, and hope that the photographer you want to shoot with is ok with that. Apr 21 05 12:12 am Link LOL...You said panties... Apr 21 05 12:29 am Link Posted by Vance: Your a nut! (:-- Apr 21 05 01:32 am Link Posted by BadPhotographer: Posted by ActionShots Photo: Fantastic. Thanks for the insult. Did not mean to offend... it was late and I was getting tired, maybe I should have explained myself a bit more completely. Apr 21 05 08:08 am Link Posted by Udo R Photography: Posted by Britt: Yes, but THAT is not the type of favour I was talking about. Reese nailed it accurately. ::::Reese is furiously scribbling another kudo point in her book::::: Apr 21 05 08:19 am Link Posted by Kevin Palmer: I totally agree. I must admit, I used to be selfish and ask and ask if the photographer has it yet. I have been fortunate to work with photographers that either give me the cd or prints the week after or day of if close to a studio. Don't be like the other models and wine. Apr 21 05 08:44 am Link Okay, seriously let's think about this... TFCD/TFP should be a personal preference (for model or photographer or whomever)- like sugar in your coffee, or taking it black. One shouldn't dictate to another person to not do trade work or how the trade should go (though in my opinion, it would be nice if offering trade work - you actually offer more than a pretty smile or a standard point and shoot photo.) This isn't the 1940's. There are no time-trade Nazi's looking to mark your forehead with a "Reject" stamp. Do what you want to do. If you want to do it - do it, if you don't - then don't. It's pretty simple. Not rocket science. BUT REMEMBER realistically speaking a friend in need is not a friend indeed... but rather a friend in need is a straight up pest. Whomever is doing the asking does not get to set all of the ground rules. Be fair and reasonable in expectations. Apr 21 05 09:31 am Link I've never thought of TFP or TFCD as doing someone a favor. I always thought it was a talent barter and an agreement, value for value. If someone feels they are doing a favor, maybe it would be best to not get into those kinds of agreements ... and them break them. It seems to me the fastest way to ruin a good reputation is to go back on your word. If I say I'll get you something by Thursday, I'll do everything possible to make sure it happens or that you're OK with the change in plans. Apr 22 05 03:22 pm Link Posted by Joe Kozlowski: I guess I wasn't clear enough and explained when a favor is a favor and not an exchange of talent... but I agree that once I enter an agreement, that I do my very best to get the material to him/her asap. (I always do, btw.). I just don't let someone pressure me beyond our agreement when I am offering a lot of my time and not getting anything in return. Apr 22 05 03:38 pm Link hey everyone. I am a make up artist, and I have done TFP, and then never heard from the photographer again. GRRR. Are photographers insulted/does it affect how they feel about the make up artist - if they bring a contract for them to sign that they will in fact receive the prints by a certain date, how many, etc??? so what is the best way for a mua to go about this? I obviously would rather not get screwed around, and I also don't want to rub people the wrong way either. But I would like my work to be taken seriously as this is my passion... any input is appreciated!! thanks. Apr 22 05 03:48 pm Link Posted by angela mcmillan: I am not sure how to handle it... if I promise a MUA prints from the shoot, I let her select the one she likes and she'll get them. Apr 22 05 03:54 pm Link Sometimes you will get the images right after the shoot. Sometimes you will get the images in a week. Sometimes you will get the images in a month. Sometimes you will get the images in 3 months. All in all, just don't bother me about them. YOU WILL GET THEM!! Apr 22 05 03:59 pm Link Now I remember why I don't do much tfp anymore!!! Paid work is always done first. that's what pays the rent! Apr 23 05 05:14 pm Link Posted by angela mcmillan: I do regular trade work with ONLY two photographers that I have already worked with on other jobs... It helps them and it helps me - it also keeps my personal portfolio over-head low as well as theirs. No contract has been needed yet, but if you feel like having one - there should be no issue of offending anyone since the contract is a "payment" confimation agreement. Just like a professional model or photographer - you need to get paid too. No professional can begrudge you a small amount of clarity and protection as to your payment and the reciept of. Apr 25 05 09:43 am Link Great thread. I find it very rewarding to do TFCD and/or TFP with new(er) models---I get to practice my light set up and improve photography skills and at the same time help aspiring models build up their portfolio. It is a win/win situation for both parties. I guess it all depends on what the photog and model want from the shoot, and they can talk about that beforehand. But after the shoot, within a week's time is what I promise, I basically send out a cd of low res unretouched copies of all images (if shooting digital of course, batch processing to resize isn't that hard to do) from which the model will choose her 10 best images for me to work on further. After that I will send a final cd containing three different file formats of each image for different applications. As a bonus, I sometimes will throw in a couple or so prints in the mail. The models I have worked with know that my word is good. It's all about ethics and respect for one another's work, just my own opinion on this matter:) After all, it is a collaboration so both parties should be equally satisfied with the outcome:) Apr 25 05 12:24 pm Link |
