SarahSVET wrote:
ok...so I did a shoot like almost two months ago. it was a TFP (trade-for-pics) They said it wouldnt take longer then 2-3weeks TOPS to get my pics back. It took over two months, but whatever thats not the problem. I get the CD back TODAY and there is only ONE picture on it?! I am sorry but my understanding is if your not going to pay me for the pictures I atleast should get all my pics back otherwise what the hell is the point of shooting?!

So let me know what you guys think am I wrong?

Perhaps you should write them and politely bring it to their attention that there must have been a problem with their burner, for there was only one photo on the cd that they sent you. Then see what they have to say.

But damn, that's messed up.

glenn usdin wrote:
bottom line, TFP, or TFCD is exactly what both parties make of it, just like every other oral or written agreement. If you agree to something upfront, thats what you should get. Not more and not less.

Amen!  Unfortunately a lot of people don't understand that an ORAL contract is still a contract!  I worked with a photographer that said I would receive 2 to 4 retouched images from the shoot.  Some people might think 2 images are not enough, but he was upfront and I accepted, so it is fair to me.

On the other hand, I am still waiting for 3 photographers to send me the cds they promised I'd receive.  If they had told me they would give me only 4 images, that would be fine with me.  The problem is that they didn't keep their word!  They said they'd give me a cd, and two or three months later I haven't received it, yet.  One of the photographers hasn't even responded to my e-mails! 

May Lu ^_^

May-Lu wrote:
I am still waiting for 3 photographers to send me the cds they promised I'd receive.

May Lu ^_^

I just remembered another one.  So, it is 4 photographers, not three!  sigh*

May

May-Lu wrote:

I just remembered another one.  So, it is 4 photographers, not three!  sigh*

May

And I got jumped on because I said it should at the most take 2 weeks to get cd's to models... This whole thread is why I said that.

Eric Muss-Barnes wrote:
Lesson learned - get it in writing.

I had to learn the hard way, but that is what I plan to do from now on.... 

May

Venus wrote:
He should've given you a CD of at LEAST the top 10 best images.  Most photographers will not give you all the images, and they definately won't give you raw images......

Yep. I agree.....

area291 wrote:
Perhaps you worked with one that applies rules similar to below, but that sucks when the honesty required or the good sense to provide a contact sheet for review and determination isn't provided. 

But by the same token, regardless of whether the lone image was good, bad or great, the expectations are out of skew for both delivery and receipt of images by many on the 'net.  When the approach is nothing more than "I want a bunch of great pictures" the results fail more than succeed.  What was your approach?  To get a bunch of pictures or create one image that blew away everything else in your portfolio?  Answer that honestly...

I'll refer you to the spirit of Bill Maher in photography for matching the craft at the highest level, New Rules.

New Rule: Baby Steps, Baby

Portfolios are built over time, one image at a time.  News Flash:  (S)He who has the most pictures is not declared the winner!  Upon model and photographer collaboration, each should enter the session with the thought in mind of getting only one great image.  That image must be better than everything else in the portfolio.  If it is only equal to or even less than current portfolio standard the session will not move either forward.  That's why the biz is so hard, it fails to accept mediocrity as a stepping stone to success.  The worst thing a model or photographer can do is scream SOS, same old shit, in the portfolio as it will never help the model or photographer rise to a higher level.   

New Rule: Deliver Only The Best

When releasing images, do not let models kick and scream about getting a gazillion pictures or even determine the delivery amount.  Wait until the shoot settles in.  Let the images simmer, walk away from them after the shoot for a day or two, even a week if needed and time permits.  Make a contact sheet and get second or even third opinion.  Then deliver only what you want your stamp on.  If there aren't any at all, don't release any of them.  Be honest in the blame, if it's you say so.  If the model didn't perform to expectation say so.  Most importantly, the only delivery requirement is the expectation to the model you have no expectation at all other than creating one great image.  Set a low bar and then hurl over it to great height even if that is just a single image.  Never deliver anything under the bar.  One is a lonely, but perfect number.

Better luck...er, approach next time.

Bingo! In addition, if the photographer didn't come to an agreement with you as far as the amount of pics, you're sol. (And generally there is an agreement like this with paid shoots.)

glenn usdin wrote:
bottom line, TFP, or TFCD is exactly what both parties make of it, just like every other oral or written agreement. If you agree to something upfront, thats what you should get. Not more and not less.

if its not agreed to by BOTH parties, its meaningless.

Glen hits the nail on the head here.

THERE ARE NO SET RULES. EVERYONE DOES THINGS DIFFERENTLY

The only thing you can do is be clear about expectations before shooting. If either party has concerns, they can either negotiate the terms or back out.  Simple.

-steve
http://www.stevennoreyko.com/

Doug Lester wrote:
Two months and one image on a CD?????  Apparently I'm doing something wrong. Following my last shoot, it took me a week and a half, but I mailed off a CD with more than 100 fully processed and corrected images, net size plus printable versions and about a dozen  8x10 prints. One image on a CD Damn, what a deal!

Seriously, I have no idea what sort of agreement you made with him before the shoot, but one image on a CD is clearly unacceptable.

Actually I find it much more acceptable then doing what you did

area291 wrote:
I'll refer you to the spirit of Bill Maher in photography for matching the craft at the highest level, New Rules.

Huh? I have no idea what you're talking about as far as Maher goes, but fuck Bill Maher, he's a complete asshole and the least funny "comedian" in history. ( ironic though that he got dumped for the one true thing he's ever said )

area291 wrote:
New Rule: Baby Steps, Baby

Portfolios are built over time, one image at a time.  News Flash:  (S)He who has the most pictures is not declared the winner!

True that.

area291 wrote:
Upon model and photographer collaboration, each should enter the session with the thought in mind of getting only one great image.  That image must be better than everything else in the portfolio.  If it is only equal to or even less than current portfolio standard the session will not move either forward.

I can't really agree with this, while it would be great of course to top everything each of you has ever done, I think it's a silly absolute to consider that a rule and it's also logically untrue. Obviously anything that's better than just the weakest shot in a book improves the book. And in fact a good book worthy shot can be good for a book even if it's not necessarily better than any existing shots as long as it meets a standard, meets a need in the book and is something new and fresh when a book needs something new and fresh.

Let's not forget that equal/better/worse is subjective and that if it's at a certain level it can just be a matter of taste between images, in that case, whether it's strictly "better" might not matter as much as "better to use now" because it's time for something else to go or it's more in line with new goals or styles etc. Let's also not forget that "great" is hard to achieve, there are very few, if any, people that can be "great" at anything every time and probably no one who has ever been "greater" each and every time doing something. So if you've already done "great," there might be work you'll never top, but it would be foolish to consider something good, excellent, or even great but not greater, as a failure and something not worth using just because it's not the best ever. Would you have had the Beatles retire after Sgt. Pepper's (or just not release anything lesser) and leave us all without the White album, Abbey Road and Let It Be?

Just because something is not "better" doesn't mean it's, as you put it "SOS" or that it's not of value and interesting and of use. Of course you should always strive to do the best you can, but thinking of any results that might fall short of literally being your best as a failure or not good enough, while maybe motivational to some, would probably be damaging to most and possibly stifle the chances at actually doing better.

area291 wrote:
New Rule: Deliver Only The Best

When releasing images, do not let models kick and scream about getting a gazillion pictures or even determine the delivery amount.  Wait until the shoot settles in.  Let the images simmer, walk away from them after the shoot for a day or two, even a week if needed and time permits.  Make a contact sheet and get second or even third opinion.  Then deliver only what you want your stamp on.  If there aren't any at all, don't release any of them.

Absolutely! The whole idea that a model should expect every shutter click, or a whole CD or set of prints, or any double-digit number of shots is simply insane!

The whole "great" image slight disagreement that we have aside, whether it's "great" or whatever other rating you give it, getting one book worthy image from a shoot is always something to be happy about and always considered a success in the real (client driven, not bizarro internet photographer as client driven) worlds of modeling. Getting 3 or 4 is really great and the most anyone should hope for. These are generally the expectations from paid tests, so if you're getting that from a free test or TFwhatever you should be even more grateful.

Some salient points that a lot of people seem to be unaware of in the gazillion picture expectation mindset are number one; in a legitimate book that’s going to do a model any good, you have no use for a gazillion images from one shoot. Like Area said, a book is built up image by image, preferably, and usually, by many different shooters. A real models book will rarely, and should rarely, feature more than one shot from any given "look" or set up/background/scene/concept/clothing change/make up change etc. So in most shoots, even long ones, there will only be a handful of different looks, set ups, so even if that meant there were hundreds of shots taken, you'll be editing down to the few best shots from each set up and choosing the best from each of those few until, generally, you've picked no more than one from each set up that will actually go in the book, and not necessarily any from some of the set ups.

Number two; not only shouldn't a whole take, or any large number, from a shoot ever be dumped onto a CD for the quality control and practical usability issues from above, but the idea that it's no time, no trouble and no expense for the photographer if he shot digital couldn't be further from the truth.

It's not just the cost of the CD, it's the time spent downloading, converting if RAW, reviewing, editing (as in "culling"), image editing (as in adjusting/correcting/retouching/polishing/finishing), burning etc. It's also about value on several levels. As much as many on this forum, including photographers, have tried to tell you that the amount a photographer has spent on equipment should have no baring on price or value, the fact is that it has to if a photographer is going to survive. That doesn't mean you should pay more or value more a photographer who has spent more just because he has spent more, but that if you do value a photographer based on his work and you want his services than you'll have to understand that he does in fact need to take into consideration his costs and expenses, including all his time spent learning his craft, his software, workflow etc. when he prices or values his work, his time and his final results. You like a digital shooter for the instant feedback, the ability to more easily judge and adjust on the fly or maybe get quicker turn around? Realize the true costs in time, money and learning curve involved.

Just to give you an idea, here are a few outlines of how many photographers are charging for the digital aspects of photography out in the real world http://editorialphoto.com/outreachep/di … ifesto.asp

http://asmp.org/commerce/digitalps_6.php#location

http://asmp.org/commerce/digcharges.php

Those prices used by and suggested for photographers just for the digital work and providing files are generally far more than anyone here would ever pay for a test shoot/portfolio shoot (for the very few here who would ever pay at all!) all together! But those are just part of the expenses photographers are charging clients, that's not the photography fee at all! So when clients are paying real money, often many, many thousands of dollars or even many tens of thousands of dollars for a shoot, they're still also paying this money for the basics of the digital production and delivery, and they're usually only ending up with a few final selects not the entire shoot.

Yet so many of you expect not only a free shoot, but free digital production of dozens or hundreds of shots. That's complete bullshit, no one should expect it and no photographer should do it.

SarahSVET wrote:
well yeah even if the pictures SUCK I should get them back. We spoke before we shot and said I'd get the pictures back. Whatever its just stupid...I guess the only thing I can do is wait for his response.

Thanks everyone!!

The better photographers will get your images to you in a timely manor, but most of the time they will only finish, or photoshop the better images.

Every photographer has a few images that need to be pulled or discarded. There can be eyes shut, half shut, shadows in the wrong place, straps twisted, and etc. One of the reasons his work is rated so high, is that the bad poses are never allowed out for others to view.

Today most models expect to get about two finished images from each clothing change.

SarahSVET wrote:
well yeah even if the pictures SUCK I should get them back. We spoke before we shot and said I'd get the pictures back. Whatever its just stupid...I guess the only thing I can do is wait for his response.

Thanks everyone!!

Actually, I don't know of one photographer who would give photos that suck even as a TFP. But I find it hard to believe that there was only ONE good photo of you that was taken.

Not to be a pessimist, but you probably won't get more than the one you did get. I hope that it is a good one.

On a brighter note, if you ever come shoot with me TFP, I will give you ALL the photos, except the blinks, blurs and misfires. You have a great look.

Aaron_H wrote:
Huh? I have no idea what you're talking about as far as Maher goes, but fuck Bill Maher, he's a complete asshole and the least funny "comedian" in history. ( ironic though that he got dumped for the one true thing he's ever said )

Ah c'mon.  Bill only has a way of cutting to the quick of sensibility...and the New Rules simply follows that though process.  He, like the New Rules are great for making people think.

Aaron_H wrote:
I can't really agree with this, while it would be great of course to top everything each of you has ever done, I think it's a silly absolute to consider that a rule and it's also logically untrue.

The New Rule merely states one should have the thought process in mind, not the absolute that it will happen.  Nothing silly about that.

Overall great contribution that you provided...

SarahSVET wrote:
well yeah even if the pictures SUCK I should get them back. We spoke before we shot and said I'd get the pictures back. Whatever its just stupid...I guess the only thing I can do is wait for his response.

Thanks everyone!!

Photographers do not typically give you every photo from the shoot, they don't want the bad ones being psoted somewhere by the model.  You do nornally get more than one however.  Most often the photographer will burn the best ones from the shoot for your CD.  Maybe he's not such a great photog and the one photo you got is the only good one from the bunch!

glenn usdin wrote:
venus, not to argue with you for the sake of arguing....but where are these rules you refer to written? 10 images, not 9, not 11, but at least 10 images......what model/photog guideline or rule book states this?

bottom line, TFP, or TFCD is exactly what both parties make of it, just like every other oral or written agreement. If you agree to something upfront, thats what you should get. Not more and not less.

if its not agreed to by BOTH parties, its meaningless.

There are NO rules about the internet modeling world.

BTW, you are very pretty and I don't want to get you mad, but its tough to discuss rules that you (or others) made up as if they are the gospel.

She never said it was a RULE...she just stated that he should have given her at least 10, if you interpret that as being a rule that's in your head.

May-Lu wrote:

Amen!  Unfortunately a lot of people don't understand that an ORAL contract is still a contract!  I worked with a photographer that said I would receive 2 to 4 retouched images from the shoot.  Some people might think 2 images are not enough, but he was upfront and I accepted, so it is fair to me.

On the other hand, I am still waiting for 3 photographers to send me the cds they promised I'd receive.  If they had told me they would give me only 4 images, that would be fine with me.  The problem is that they didn't keep their word!  They said they'd give me a cd, and two or three months later I haven't received it, yet.  One of the photographers hasn't even responded to my e-mails! 

May Lu ^_^

An oral contract is still a contract, but try and prove it!  It turns into your word against there's and when you go to court over those types of things the judge doesn't say 'did you have a verbal contact' he says 'do you have witnesses to the verbal contract' OR 'do you have it in writing'  If you agree to do a shoot with a photographer and don't have any of the particulars in writing and then you end up with nothing, then sorry to say, but it's your fault.  You should NEVER walk into any type of agreement without all the details worked out.  When I shoot a model, she knows EXACTLY how many images she is going to end up with and when (typically 2 weeks) and it's IN THE CONTRACT, doesn't matter whether is TFP TFCD or PAID.

SarahSVET wrote:
well yeah even if the pictures SUCK I should get them back. We spoke before we shot and said I'd get the pictures back. Whatever its just stupid...I guess the only thing I can do is wait for his response.

Thanks everyone!!

Sarah my point of view is this when you take pictures for free such as tfcd tfp or wherever and most of the models expect all the 100 pictures from the shoot. but you need to realize that if a professional photographer if it is a professional photographer they will not give you all the set of pictures why?  because is their names going around the internet lets put it this way if you receive a complete set of pictures and you say ok i will use this picture for promote your person and you pic one of the bad ones but you think is a fantastic looking pictures you are putting on a totally bad spot the photographer or what about you decide to make some compcard with another image of you, and you think it looks good so what is the point for having photographers taking the pictures for you. You should take it yourself professional photographers are the ones who edited the pictures because is their image and their business . other thing is for a session of one day for a advertising project you got 500 or more than that and you ending choosing 3 of the best ones if you are lucky .
is not about the quantity is about quality of the picture other photographers dont care trust me I dont understand why but i do. 

thats my 2 cents   

gean

SarahSVET wrote:
he also said for 200 dollars EACH I can get the rest of the pics.

Play the guys game.  Stroke him by saying his work is awesome and ask for contact sheets so you can choose which to order.  If he does that then tell him they were destroyed in the mail so he has to do it over.  Then make him do a print on spec to see the print quality. 

I'd fuck with this guy good for playing a bait and switch...

SarahSVET wrote:
OK so I just got a response from the photog. he said I only got one image because it costs too much money to do one he also said for 200 dollars EACH I can get the rest of the pics. hmmmmmm...thats funny since before we shot he said I'd get all the pics. I dont need them all re-touched thats the thing.

OH and for everyone curious which ONE shot it is..its the boat pic.

alright thanks for the help...ya ya im shit of luck...I see that.

Oh screw that!!!
What does the release form say???
Besides, these have potential to be great pics, only took me 2 minutes in PS to enhance it, so I don't know what the problem on his end. Maybe he's trying to hustle you.

SarahSVET wrote:
OK so I just got a response from the photog. he said I only got one image because it costs too much money to do one he also said for 200 dollars EACH I can get the rest of the pics. hmmmmmm...thats funny since before we shot he said I'd get all the pics. I dont need them all re-touched thats the thing.

OH and for everyone curious which ONE shot it is..its the boat pic.

alright thanks for the help...ya ya im shit of luck...I see that.

$200.00 EACH???!!! That guy is nuckin' futz!

I'm sorry that happened to ya. The one pic is awesome though. How does he figure it costs too much to do a photo? Was it film or digital? You could offer to pay for the develop to film: most labs charge $7per roll. If it was digital, he doesn't have an excuse.

Well, next time, just remember: get it in writing.

commart wrote:
More than two months?
I hope you got a great, not merely good, picture out of it.

That's what I was going to say!

Damn.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for quality over quantity, but that just sounds bad.  No one I've ever worked with has pulled that (the combination of lateness plus a single image).