Star wrote:
Ok, so I don't get this. Why do you contact people for work you have no intention of doing at the advertised price.

Really, MUA's stop responding to postings with your day rates or asking for kit fees when the posting says I WILL NOT BE PAYING a kit fee at this time. That means gas. That mean NO kit fee is available. So, if I am not paying a kit fee, why would I pay for gas?

Models, if you can't work on the date don't respond to the ad, just to say oh is that on Weds, I am only available on weekends. Well, the ad did say weds, so yes that is when it is.

Why am I angry?

Because when I send out three no's and two yes's to people who want to work with me, and then the yes's come back and ask what the kit fee is they just screwed me, and the MUA's or models who wanted to work with me and have now been told no.

Than I can either contact people and say, Hey want to be sloppy seconds or just go without cause I am never paying someone if I say I can't.

Already I am feeling quite sore because I am paying someone to do styling who said he was looking for TFP, and he only want to outfit four people, and I have to pick him up at his house. He had mentioned he was also an MUA but when I mentioned that he would be helping with make-up he was like, not for the money you are paying me.

Am I crazy or is $150 a lot of money when I am also giving images, and driving 30 miles out of my way to pick you up and drive you to the location. For $150 I could have bought two of the outfits and gotten to keep them since downtown LA has some beautiful Edwardian inspired fashions this year.

Than people ask for kits fees, when the ad said no KIT FEE.

Oh, and several people, after I hired this person, offered to do the job for free.

Why am I angry?

why doesn't everybody guess? I'm broke, frustrated, and afraid that I won't get what I need out of the shoot even after spending a great amount of money. I am having stress dreams about this shoot, and I kinda want to cry right now.

Last question, why will I never offer pay again? Because as soon as I do people think there is more money. Because this is out of my own pocket and I only make 12,000 a year.

Because I am crying when I should be excited about a project that came from my heart and is going to kick ass and be on the level of Vanity Fair.

Because the question I always seem to get asked is, "Wow, these are incredible. Why aren't you making a living at this?"

I totally understand your pain. People have no respect for one's efforts and they take everything for granted. I have been in the exact same position as you and I know how it feels. It is like, I am trying to help YOU and YOU think at first is cool and then just feel the need to screw me around and mess with my time. Some people are completly oblivious to what is going on around them and I get the feeling sometimes that they enjoy and think is funny to make you spend time and effort so they can what? Tell you 2 mins before the shoot that neah, I dont think so.
I agree with you and am really sorry for what's happening to you.
Anais

Brian Diaz wrote:
The thing is this:  everything is negotiable, and if you don't ask, you will never receive.

So, if you contact amodel and she says she is interested in TFP, and than asks for an hourly rate that is ok by you?

Star wrote:

So, if you contact amodel and she says she is interested in TFP, and than asks for an hourly rate that is ok by you?

Yeah, it's okay for her to say that.  Then it's okay for me to say no and shoot someone else.

Star wrote:
Why am I angry?

why doesn't everybody guess? I'm broke, frustrated, and afraid that I won't get what I need out of the shoot even after spending a great amount of money. I am having stress dreams about this shoot, and I kinda want to cry right now.

Last question, why will I never offer pay again? Because as soon as I do people think there is more money. Because this is out of my own pocket and I only make 12,000 a year.

Because I am crying when I should be excited about a project that came from my heart and is going to kick ass and be on the level of Vanity Fair.

Because the question I always seem to get asked is, "Wow, these are incredible. Why aren't you making a living at this?"

Star, I know exactly how you feel.

Brian Diaz wrote:

Yeah, it's okay for her to say that.  Then it's okay for me to say no and shoot someone else.

and if you had already turned down the other 15 people, no joke it was about 15 submissions for this MUA project, than what do you do?

Star wrote:
and if you had already turned down the other 15 people, no joke it was about 15 submissions for this MUA project, than what do you do?

I go back to one of the people I turned down, I explain that the model/mua I booked before flaked out and I ask if they'd still be interested.

It's not 'sloppy seconds'...it often happens that I've booked someone and they cancel and I need someone else.

Star wrote:

So, if you contact amodel and she says she is interested in TFP, and than asks for an hourly rate that is ok by you?

No thats when YOU say "I'm sorry, we either shoot tfp as you originally claimed you would shoot, or your services will no longer be needed." than find another model.

I have found that models will throw in a few extra rates just to see what they can get. 

That whole thing about the artist. WTF?!?! Did you plan this shoot spare of the moment? It almost sounded like you didn't have time to fix things. Or did things unwind during the process of planning with these people?

Duane  Allen wrote:
Boy Ms Star replace the two outfits with some car parts
and I \ALSO beleive that TALENT is in short supply with
certain "MODELS" thinking they can get a rate more than a
Comm Model in a Major location WITHOUT full on nails makeup
and hair needing to be all done and demanding prints CD and WHERE the shots
can be seen
It iis just another day at the studio
We do this because we want to
show off our MAD SKILLZ and sometine when we find
KONG
all of this means diddly
Duane

huh?

...Stacy wrote:
huh?

Stacy,

I agree with you on this one ...HUH?

Brian Diaz wrote:
The thing is this:  everything is negotiable, and if you don't ask, you will never receive.

Everything is not negotiable when things are spelled out ie: NO KIT FEE, THAT is not negotiable.

Cameron Watson wrote:
'Let me explain, no that will take too long. Let me sum up...'

"Give us the Gate Key."

"I have no Gate Key."

"Fezzic, tear his arms off."

"Oh, you mean *this* gate key."

Like a previous poster said, everything is negotiable.  If your posting says no kit fee, and they ask, then reiterate your position.  If they keep asking, then don't work with them...

Star wrote:
Ok, so I don't get this. Why do you contact people for work you have no intention of doing at the advertised price.

Really, MUA's stop responding to postings with your day rates or asking for kit fees when the posting says I WILL NOT BE PAYING a kit fee at this time. That means gas. That mean NO kit fee is available. So, if I am not paying a kit fee, why would I pay for gas?

Models, if you can't work on the date don't respond to the ad, just to say oh is that on Weds, I am only available on weekends. Well, the ad did say weds, so yes that is when it is.

Why am I angry?

Because when I send out three no's and two yes's to people who want to work with me, and then the yes's come back and ask what the kit fee is they just screwed me, and the MUA's or models who wanted to work with me and have now been told no.

Than I can either contact people and say, Hey want to be sloppy seconds or just go without cause I am never paying someone if I say I can't.

Already I am feeling quite sore because I am paying someone to do styling who said he was looking for TFP, and he only want to outfit four people, and I have to pick him up at his house. He had mentioned he was also an MUA but when I mentioned that he would be helping with make-up he was like, not for the money you are paying me.

Am I crazy or is $150 a lot of money when I am also giving images, and driving 30 miles out of my way to pick you up and drive you to the location. For $150 I could have bought two of the outfits and gotten to keep them since downtown LA has some beautiful Edwardian inspired fashions this year.

Than people ask for kits fees, when the ad said no KIT FEE.

Oh, and several people, after I hired this person, offered to do the job for free.

Why am I angry?

why doesn't everybody guess? I'm broke, frustrated, and afraid that I won't get what I need out of the shoot even after spending a great amount of money. I am having stress dreams about this shoot, and I kinda want to cry right now.

Last question, why will I never offer pay again? Because as soon as I do people think there is more money. Because this is out of my own pocket and I only make 12,000 a year.

Because I am crying when I should be excited about a project that came from my heart and is going to kick ass and be on the level of Vanity Fair.

Because the question I always seem to get asked is, "Wow, these are incredible. Why aren't you making a living at this?"

These problems are not really new. Just a different generation having the same problems. Years ago I went into the corporate world because feeding my family was more important than my artistic dreams. Everyone thought that photographers were way overpaid for just shooting a few pictures. Never mind costs for equipment and the rest of the expenses that go into the business.
Then because I couldn't give it up all together I became a "GWC". No one expects that kind of payment from a "GWC". We buy a "Brownie" and start shooting. Might take a while for those under fifty to know what a "Brownie" is but what the hey.
I feel the pain and know how hard it is to survive out the as a photographer. But this will not be the last time you feel the anguish of stupidity. Take a deep breath and just move on, knowing it could be worse and probably will be at some point.
As for me, I'll stay a "GWC" and let the rest of the world fight it.

Have a great day.

Moraxian wrote:

"Give us the Gate Key."

"I have no Gate Key."

"Fezzic, tear his arms off."

"Oh, you mean *this* gate key."

Like a previous poster said, everything is negotiable.  If your posting says no kit fee, and they ask, then reiterate your position.  If they keep asking, then don't work with them...

'Oh dear god what is that thing... that is what to-the-pain means'

GregBrown wrote:
-------------------------------      It's only a business if you treat it like one.

sorry to snip the quote but never a truer word spoken.

Cameron Watson wrote:
'Let me explain, no that will take too long. Let me sum up...'

It is coming up on two years since I ventured into this world.

In that time, MUA's have email models I am scheduled to work with and offer TFP ANYTIME to them. When I approach that MUA with an idea for that model, I am expected to pay or the MUA is not available...

Half the models, stylists & MUA's, it seems have no means of transportation.

Star, I hear what you are saying so loud and clear that your whisper is a scream!

I have a very good Corporate job, company car, expense account etc... People see that and expect my newbie photography venture must be successful. TFP anymore means, that I the photographer must be prepared to:

- drive and pick-up the model, the stylist, the mua or whomever (or be prepared
    to travel to them)
- buy lunch, dinner or supply refreshments for everyone.
- pay kit fees, buy accessories and/or clothes (which apparently I shouldn't be
   prepared to keep)
- photograph the shoot (of course)
- edit an unlimited amount of images to some one else's expectation (in 24
   hours or less)
- supply prints for their books
- supply all raw material on CD along with any edits
- give up all rights to the images, for the model, mua, and stylist
- all this on their schedules not mine.

And this is because I benefit so much from this venture...

It has been a frustrating two years. My TFP rules have changed. I shoot less (TFP) as some dont like the rules... not because I wouldnt do it. There is a fine line for fairness and equity in TFP. Still working on where to draw that in the sand...

What's in this for you?

- drive and pick-up the model, the stylist, the mua or whomever (or be prepared
to travel to them).
This is acceptable as long as it's not many hours on the road.

- buy lunch, dinner or supply refreshments for everyone.
Also acceptable as a reward for their good work.

- pay kit fees, buy accessories and/or clothes (which apparently I shouldn't be
   prepared to keep)
What are you thinking??? The kit fee maybe... Clothes that you give away! You better be booking models that can nail poses telepathically linked to you so you don't have to give direction, that or agency models that you need more than they need you.

- edit an unlimited amount of images to some one else's expectation (in 24
   hours or less)
Learn to say, "You will have proofs within 3-5 days. Prints, 3-5 days after you've made your selections."

- supply prints for their books
1-2 (maybe 3 if it was an amazing shoot and cooperative model) free prints. Max! Any other prints can be picked up at a discounted rate (cost + 10-25% markup). Unless there is some kind of special arrangement before the shoot.

- supply all raw material on CD along with any edits
Bad practice to do. It's like handing over negatives. If they want full res finals so that they can print it themselves, CHARGE THEM FOR IT!

- give up all rights to the images, for the model, mua, and stylist
ALL RIGHTS?!?! Are you out of your fucking mind?! If you ever give up all rights, those pictures better buy you a new plasma TV at a minimum.

You have some very bad business practices. You also allow people to walk all over you. Learn how to do business and when to say no! If you keep going like this you'll probably lose more money than you'll make, which is no way to do business.

Yuriy wrote:
What's in this for you?

- drive and pick-up the model, the stylist, the mua or whomever (or be prepared
to travel to them).
This is acceptable as long as it's not many hours on the road.

- buy lunch, dinner or supply refreshments for everyone.
Also acceptable as a reward for their good work.

- pay kit fees, buy accessories and/or clothes (which apparently I shouldn't be
   prepared to keep)
What are you thinking??? The kit fee maybe... Clothes that you give away! You better be booking models that can nail poses telepathically linked to you so you don't have to give direction, that or agency models that you need more than they need you.

- edit an unlimited amount of images to some one else's expectation (in 24
   hours or less)
Learn to say, "You will have proofs within 3-5 days. Prints, 3-5 days after you've made your selections."

- supply prints for their books
1-2 (maybe 3 if it was an amazing shoot and cooperative model) free prints. Max! Any other prints can be picked up at a discounted rate (cost + 10-25% markup). Unless there is some kind of special arrangement before the shoot.

- supply all raw material on CD along with any edits
Bad practice to do. It's like handing over negatives. If they want full res finals so that they can print it themselves, CHARGE THEM FOR IT!

- give up all rights to the images, for the model, mua, and stylist
ALL RIGHTS?!?! Are you out of your fucking mind?! If you ever give up all rights, those pictures better buy you a new plasma TV at a minimum.

You have some very bad business practices. You also allow people to walk all over you. Learn how to do business and when to say no! If you keep going like this you'll probably lose more money than you'll make, which is no way to do business.

Yuri relax...man it was very tongue-in-cheek. these are typical of the demands made by some internet models, MUA's and stylists....and seems to becoming more previlent.

If I gave all that away I would be broke in a week :0

C R Photography wrote:
Flakey Models, Creepy Photographers, Greedy MuAs.

But for the rest of us it's called success!

Well-written. Made me smile.

DawnElizabeth Moderator wrote:
Star:

I will work with you TFP. No kit fee required. You're a little far, but I will be sure that should I travel towards your area, I will make that pit stop. I'll even pay for my own gas and spring for lunch. Provided that lunch is about $20.

Love the way you think, Dawn. You wouldnt happen to be coming to Canada anytime soon ... wink wink

Cameron Watson wrote:
Yuri relax...man it was very tongue-in-cheek. these are typical of the demands made by some internet models, MUA's and stylists....and seems to becoming more prevalent.

If I gave all that away I would be broke in a week :0

I was under the impression that he was serious.
And, you're right those are demands by many internet models, etc.

Some photographers actually do all those things because they have developed no business sense.
"What’s a few sheets of paper?â€?
“Another free 8x10? Sure (thinking at least I got the sale)"
Because of such photographers we all lose business, get undercut by amateurs, etc.

Tracey Masterson wrote:
7 and a 1/2 hours?????

no, I have 9 girls coming over the course of 7.5 hours, and this was the third mua I was looking for. Over the course of that time you do two models, because two of the models are their own mua. I made it a longer day, with long breaks,
(at least one 2 hour one) because there is a model office that hires MUA's at my school, and lots of places to post your information for paying gigs.

Many of the people in my school pay their make-up artists while they learn how to shoot fashion, I know how to shoot fashion. My images are the pay, and people who need that type of pay contact me.

There also is time for lunch, and pack-up...

CO Model Amber wrote:
Stop complaining! This is the internet you can not expect much from people on here. Yup, I said it.

well here is one of the group fun shots...