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MUA'S: Your rates are the first thing we really...
This is from another forum, but I thought it needed its own thread. I am tired of people pricing themselves out of the game before they have even started, and want to highlight the people who are in it not for the money, well not only the money, but for the artistry. No one should ever have to feel grateful that someone "chose" to work with them if they are chargin you to work with them. Not even me, the almighty photographer. censored wrote: One top LA photographer, he shoots Fortune 500 execs, sets the rate for his MUA at $600. She works almost exclusively with him, and they have built a great working relationship. As his rates have risen, so have hers. Nov 08 05 11:54 am Link As she said, "if you can't afford me, don't use me." The market will determine what's fair. Paul Nov 08 05 03:03 pm Link Star wrote: I know who you are talking about and I understand why you feel this way Nov 08 05 03:05 pm Link Yes, I responded to this to get some more info. I definately think if you are brazen enough to ask for that much per head you should have work to back it up. Otherwise you ARE pricing yourself out of the game. But hey, more work for those who price for their market. I'm not cheap by your comparisons, but I am in my market for paid projects in the D.C. area. Like I said, if she can do it, good for her. But, if you put two portfolios together, and one is obviously better than the other, AND the cost of the better one is not above market, who would you pick? Nov 08 05 03:26 pm Link I worked with a mua once....she charged (i didn't pay the model did) and after she finished the make up i said "so where is it?" i could of done a better job! We specifically asked for a certain look and basically got nothing. Nov 08 05 03:51 pm Link Images By Amber wrote: Did you see a portfolio from her before you hired her? Nov 08 05 03:56 pm Link Yea, checking out his/her portfolio before you have them do your makeup is key! I always check out a portfolio. I check to see the array of colors that they use (since some mua I see stick to more neutral tones), how creative they get, and if they use any models with a skin color similar to mine. Nov 08 05 04:19 pm Link Amber said that the model hired the MUA, so it was something out of her hands. Sure, she could've checked the MUA's work, which I'm sure she might do in the future regardless of who hires the MUA. But I think the point she was trying to make was that the MUA's work was less than satisfactory in her opinion. Am I wrong? Nov 08 05 04:27 pm Link Also, to respond to what Star wrote: I agree that a lot of people price themselves simply because it seems they're emulating the prices of established professionals. It's not the easiest thing to find a reasonable rate without driving down the market, but just because the next person is making $$$$ doesn't mean you should charge the same amount. Nov 08 05 04:31 pm Link MakeupIsArt wrote: yeah, her work was great! and than once she was done with the make up she sat around watching, after we told her touch ups werent neccessary! she than tried to charge the model for the time she was sitting there... Nov 08 05 05:33 pm Link You charge and are paid what the market will bear. In San Diego I charge $650.00 to $800.00 a day and get it about 3 or 4 days a week, the half day is $400.00 to 5 hours. I get it and turn down a lot of it....Why would I charge less? When I am turning down work at full day rate it would be silly to cut my rate wouldnt it? Modeling portfolio work I dont really do anymore because I am always booked on higher paying stuff and dont want to mark off a day for less then full or at least a half day rate. Would you as a photographer charge $2,000.00 for day and turn down $4000.00 a day jobs because you want to make yourself affordable to everyone? no. You know your price is right when you work as much as you like... when you start turning down a lot of work because you are already booked you then start charging more...its all simple supply and demand. No two artists are alike, some suck and some will make the client love you. If someone charges more then you want to pay you simply move on to someone less busy, not as good I'm sure but less busy....thats how it works, the good artists are busy and make good money, the new ones with little experience are testing and taking small pay jobs. Nov 08 05 08:32 pm Link Once again, I agree completely with Mary. I charge a day rate of $1250 for corporate work. I know it's expensive, but I don't get to work too often and I am busy with othr things. I lose jobs regularly by being underbid, but I also have clients who book me regularly because they know they will get exactly what they want. One other point, besides Kevin AuCoin or Mr. Westmore, how many famous makeup artists do you know of. A model in front of the camera can get famous and make extra money that way, a photographer earns royalties. WHen a makup artist is done with a job, that's it. Hell, most MUA's are INCREDIBLY lucky if they even get credit! So, if they have the skills they need to charge as much as the market will bear. Now...if they don't have the skills, or if they abuse the billing system, word tends to get around. The artists like Mary, who work regularly for paying clients, get that work for two reasons. First, they have the skills and a book to prove it. Second, and probably MOST importantly, they have a reputation for showing up and getting the job done right. Oh, and there are just as many hack makeup artists as there are hack models or hack photographers...which means we ALL have to watch who we work with! Nov 08 05 08:45 pm Link if I could body paid like you do Rich, I would charge a lot more then I do....I mean how many good artists can do that? very few. You cant really shop price for art work like that. The hack artists that work all day for $200, $300, whatever....they will cost you in the end because you'll be photoshopping until carpel tunnel sets in  oh, and when you are working with a corporate client and the artist is an hour late....that just cost you future work with that client and it cost that client a lot of money because a paid model sat there, the crew sat there and that will be the sorriest hour you have ever spent LOL! Nov 08 05 08:55 pm Link Yes, I think I mentioned that (I think anything more than $150-250 for a day(the rate for Porn or Music Video shoots), when you are not associated with any company or professional agency is an unrealistic expectation.) you should charge what is accpetable at the until you are an established professional. The question really is for Mary and Rich, how much of your work comes directly from Model Mayhem. I mean I would love to charge what I am worth, but unfortunately I am not in enough demand for that to work. The MUA who did the posting priced herself not by what she had been paid in the past, but by your pricing. Sure I could charge the same as the professionals in LA who also do celebrity and editorial work, but would anyone pay me? I think we can all agree that Eric Muss-Barnes is a brilliant photographer, but his charges are much less than many in LA. It is a question of contacts, expierience and market. When you first started did you charge what you charge now? ALso, from the first quote "We are doing you ladies a favor by coming out to you! " I don't care if you are Max Factor himself, you come onto set with an attitude like that, you are leaving fairly quickly. I know Rich and Mary would never tell someone, even if they secretly believed it, that they are "lucky" that you are there because it is unconscionabley (sp) rude and disrespectful to everyone on the set. Nov 09 05 12:49 am Link Lol, well when I FIRST strted I charged a dollar for a cheek design! My first bodypainting, I think I charge like $60-80 or some such...and it was pretty bad though the client was pleased. This would have been back aroun '93 or so. I think $150-250 a day for a starter is pretty reasonable, but should go up quite quickly if the artist is in demand. One thing that people don't realize if they are not a full time MUA (or photog or model for that matter) is that you are NOT charging the client for the time you are AT the job. If you are going to make a go of it you have to charge the clients enough to pay your materials costs, your training costs, maintenence costs, not to mention your mortgage and diapers for the kiddies! (you get my point) Here in CA you can make $150 in a full day at many unskilled jobs, (managing a taco bell, working the desk at a hotel, waiting tables) so someone with some training and skill should be making AT LEAST that much. Oh, and as far as work from MM...not much for me, but I'm not looking for work here directly. Here on MM I am getting my name out, getting feedback and opinions from others in the business, connecting with models I may want to hire for personal projects, and networking in case someone gets asked for someone with my skills so they will know where to look for me. One other note...you will never get what you are worth, until you are willing to ask for it without having to justify why. (I'm still learning this one myself!) ~Rich Nov 09 05 01:01 am Link AMEN RICH!! I pretty much act like a B*$#@ on the message boards to keep my work load manageable LOL! I have made a few contacts from message boards that did turn into work but my major jobs come through my agency and just word of mouth...longevity in the business. I am always suprised as outspoken as I am that people do still contact me for real work from message boards, it's not why I post...I post because its relaxing for me to put my thoughts in cyberspace. My work is very physical, hiking, the beach, carrying lots of equipment...that to chill and relax I enjoy the boards...never thinking I will get business. You are right, I never act like a client is lucky I am there...I am greatful for every job I have, if I take the job it's because I have asked for fair compensation and so it's a win win, we are fortunate to have each other...client and makeup artist. I agree the artists attitude is out of line, it seems she is lashing out at everyone because she has allowed herself to be used and abused in the past by clients. It's an issue that she will work out as she improves and her prospects improve...I see this a lot. She'll move up and leave the attitude behind or she'll move out of the business. Nov 09 05 11:27 am Link I love my clients and they love me. They understand that makeup supplies are expensive and the makeup artist puts out immediately. I appreciate the client that understands this financial consideration and has the courtesy to also value the labour that is involved in quality makeup work. I dont support exubarant prices for those who cant afford quality work as I would like all models an equal oppertunity to shine in their pictures but it needs to be said that this should never be at a loss to any other individual. This is why I work out a reasonable rate according to the specific job required with each individual establishing that essential minimum which is not dirt cheap nor sky high and calculate a reasonable work rate after that. Nobody likes to be exploited, not makeup artist, photographer or model. When people start to know that you have integrity and great work they find you affordable. Respect, Sky:-) Makeup profile is Skymakeup#39862 Jan 03 06 07:02 pm Link depending on who you are working for (corporate client vs. private client), to many people, price=quality. If you don't charge enough it's basically like calling yourself a hack. Regarding things like wedding, event, and portrait photography, people who have the funds will call you just *because* you have the highest rates in town, because to them, you get what you pay for. It costs $3,000 just to get my boss to show up at your wedding, and that doesn't include any prints or album. We shoot 30-40 weddings a season even at that rate, and there are only 3 photographers total in the company. You do the math, man. If you're worth the money and the market will support it, don't sell yourself short. Screw that starving artist crap. Jan 03 06 10:09 pm Link well i have a sliding scale and i also have a "day " job too so if some one wants to book me they have to pay me what i would make at my other job and then i would add in my make-up costs transport ect ect . I have differnt rates for differnt projects. like i charge a bit more for my bridal than i do for head shots as bride will pay more and they get a differnt atmospher from me I have gotten my $300 day fee on a couple of shoots but I have only been in the industry for 1 year, and i have been told that I should charge more. I think I might but I also dont want to over bid my self.Jan 03 06 11:57 pm Link This subject has come up a lot here recently (e.g., professional MUA rates and whether they a "worth" it), so there must be something to it. I agree that simple supply and demand economics come into play, but, and I address this to you Mary, the quoted MUA is not really saying anything different than that Wall Group MUA said to me, just without any sugar coating. There seems to be--endemic to the entertainment industry in particular--a trickle down BS cycle. PA's get treated like shit, so when they become producers they treat others the same way (ever see "Swimming with Sharks"?) This goes for actors, models, and yes, even MUAs. Something about the capricious/hard knocks nature of the entertainment business tends to turn people bitchy once they make it. One way this is manifested is in terms of a condescending, nose-in-the-air attitude toward anything below a certain level of jobs. I honestly don't see this as much in other professions. Jan 04 06 02:36 am Link I used a MUA one time. She spent most of her time on the phone talking. Then she and the model went out to the store and had to buy some body paint which took 2 hours. Then she gave me a quick job. She was in a hurry to get to another city and wanted to be gone by 5pm. Flights were leaving Dallas all the way up to 11pm. so she ran out the door and I was pissed that I wasted $300 for the day. NEVER FRIGGIN AGAIN. BS Jan 04 06 05:36 am Link Star, God Bless you, you seem like the nicest person in the world. I disagree with your basic business model and how you view the pricing aspect. The working MUA's who responded to you really understand that pricing=value. If you allow customers to see your price as a bargain, then they will come to expect bargain work at bargain prices. Once you get into any competition based on price over quality, you loose. There have been tons of studies that show the effect of lowering prices on profit margins. Simple summary, the more you charge, the more you make, and lowering the price in a given market situation does not translate into more profit by volume. In reality, a certain segment of people will pay more for a service because they believe that if it costs more, it has to be better. HMMMMM, had a Starbucks lately? 75 cent cup of coffee for $ 3.50. Higher price, must be better, right? If you could go out and show that your work was as good, or better, than the $ 600 studio shots you used to do, you could get that work. But I see you leaving money on the table at $ 250. It really is difficult for service providers to understand their own value. Yesterday I went to a graphic designer. She showed us some images of her kids. They were in a fancy presentation box, all wrapped in color coordinated tissue papers, with a custom stamp and customized ribbon around the box. When she got the whole package apart, there were some very nice BW prints of her kids. She told me what she paid the photog and I was blown away. Almost my commercial daily rate. I would have done the same thing for half that. But this gal packaged her stuff so nice the customers love paying her top dollar. I deliver my commercial images on a CD to art directors. This was a wake-up call for me. God Bless any MUA who can charge and get top rates. You should too. If you priced yourself higher, you'd make more money and do less work. Jan 04 06 05:56 am Link I really don't understand all this talking and discussion about pricing, who has more expenses and which is worth what. If I choose to charge 600+ for a shooting and somebody will pay that amount...that's fine with me. As it should be for the customer since he/she obviously doesn't find anyone cheaper with the same skills. Same if I charge 6000+... Same with models, muas, editors etc... I never paid for a model or got paid... I believe in TFP. I believe also that I can do amazing pictures if I could afford Heidi Klum and her MakeUp Artist. And probably I will get the money back out of them. This is probably only the view of a GWC who doesn't need to make profit and who is not really in the business to make a living out of it, but still... I can't afford a porsche, so I might end up with a tuned station wagon. Since I'm an experienced driver I might win a few races against a porsche... Jan 04 06 06:09 am Link bobby sargent wrote: Bodypainting for $300 a day? I cost more than that, but then...I also bring a full kit too, have plans layed out in advance, and if you pay me for a day you get me there for at least 8 hours actually PAINTING. Jan 04 06 10:56 am Link glenn usdin wrote: Glenn hits the nail on the head AGAIN.....As my prices went up over the years my clients got better, the photogrpahers wanting to hire me got better...not fewer just better quality Jan 04 06 11:08 am Link It's all what the market will support. I have my agency rate for hair and makeup in South Florida. I have my agency rate for hair and makeup when I am booked out of New York. Which is twice the Florida rate. And that comes from the agencies. I bid each job seperate. And why is it that the best jobs pay the most and seem to be the easiest to do? R- Jan 07 06 12:22 am Link bobby sargent wrote: Don't let the bad apples spoil your opinion of the rest of us. But at the same time, don't put up with that kind of crap. Jan 07 06 07:24 pm Link Agreed with Mary and Rich (again). For those photographers who are ranting about bad experience, do this. Test with the makeup artist first before you use them unless they are as established as Mary. Most professionals will test with you once to see if you two can work together. That is, of course, providing that you have a body of work that is also up to a level that they know you are not bs-ing them into doing free makeup for that one time. That's how I built my team of talented people who I just LOVE to work with. We set the prices then forget about it. After that, we just get thingsd done and have lots of fun doing every time projects or agency tests. Mandy, you are next! Jan 07 06 07:33 pm Link |
