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I have a bit of a dilemma...
I have a bit of a dilemma
A couple weeks ago I did a TFCD shoot with 2 models that were also dating at the time. They came up and I photographed them separately and together. A week or so later they broke up and the female model wants me to basically forget the shoot ever happened. If this were a solo shoot, I'd have no problem with that (maybe), but this involves another model. I didn't photograph them as a 'dating couple'. I photographed them as 2 models. The obvious outcome that she wants is that the male model not receive any more images from me and since she's already fairly established, she's fine with not having any additional images to ad to her portfolio. (I've already given her around 8 solos and 3 couple shots) I spent quite a bit of money on fabrics for the shoot. (I sometimes make outfits). In addition to the 9 hours shooting, I also spent 3 hours straightening her hair. It seems really unfair and unprofessional for me to not give the male model the rest of the photos just because she and I were acquaintances prior to this shoot. If she doesn't want her photos, I dont have to give them to her. I guess I'm asking: What would you do if you shot with two dating models and one tried to pay you off to not give the other their photos? PS. There was no model release (please dont flame, everyone learns). PPS. She's removed all credit of me from her the photos, although not the logo on the photo yet, but she's threatened to remove it. May 13 05 02:45 pm Link Is possible to let things cool down, then try to address the issue(s) with her. People say and do alot of things when tempers fly. May 13 05 02:52 pm Link without a release, you're screwed. As a principle, I wouldnt let anyone pay me off just to make them happy. The model that wants you to do that...seriously bad ethics. Chock it up to a learning experience. Hey, I once watched a 2x teleconverter roll into a lake from my pocket. Imagine that costly lesson! May 13 05 02:54 pm Link I did a shoot with someone I was dating and a week later we had a nasty break-up (well, it didn't get nasty right away). It never even occured to me to ask the photographer not to use the shots. Of course, looking at the shots of us together, I was clearly straing daggers into his face, so no one ever wanted to use them. Tell the model to shove it and show some professionalism. Maybe next time she'll think twice before dragging her boyfriend along on a shoot. May 13 05 02:55 pm Link Yeah I've done a couple that broke up shortly thereafter. I got my releases and she's pretty OK with it since most of the time he's on a leash with a spiked heel driving in his shoulder ... May 13 05 02:59 pm Link I take it back. With no release from her, you'd be wis enot to use anything with her in it. However, no reason not toi give the male model the shots of him alone and tell him his ex is a dipsh*t. Which he knows. May 13 05 03:00 pm Link Posted by Capt Stu Beans: How am I screwed though? She's still using the images I gave her intially, including the couple shots. (one of them got her a showcase on OMP). In general if my images aren't defaming her in any way and I'm not financially profiting from them, there's no way she can tell me not to use them. They're obviously from a shoot and not a random candid incident. Doesn't that mean I'm not screwed? May 13 05 03:01 pm Link Well, technically without a release she could take legal action if you used the pictures after she told you not to. Although I doubt it would get that far, and I'm not up on my legal knowlege. I would guess she's trying to intimidate you into not using them. Really, I don't see why her panties are in a twist. I'm sure there are lots of candid photos of her and this guy, very possibley on the internet. May 13 05 03:08 pm Link Did you promise the model model photos from the session? If you did, then I think you should keep your word and provide him with photos of himself. If the female model removes your copyright notice and continues to use the pictures, she's probably opened herself up to a copyright infringement suit, it's probably not worth it and besides, you're friends, right? As far as your usage of the photos? Well, without a release you're pretty limited in what you can do with them. May 13 05 03:14 pm Link Hey Heather- Well first thing I would never work with her again if is going to be that unprofessional. I mean it's not your fault they broke up and like you said you've invested a lot of time and money into a TFP shoot and she need to realize that. I do think legally you are not allowed to use her images without a model release. If you post them on your site, the images they could be considered advertising and thus you need a release. However without your approval I don't think she is allowed to use the images either, since you own the copyright to them. I hate when people feel the need to make your life miserable just because theirs sucks. One thing is for sure, she is making a big mistake screwing you over as you are an awwesome photographer. My .25 cent, inflation and all. John May 13 05 03:20 pm Link It's a petty situation. One that I do not envy you of. The absence of a model release gives you all the potential to sue each other. In an situation like this, I'd play it safe and just have the prints in a personal hand carry portfolio and consult with a lawyer to see if it's permissible to display any of the images on your own personal website for self-marketing purposes. Putting any of the images on any other website and, or selling them to commercial venues would be risking your neck. I have more than a few photo sets of models in storage because I don't have the model releases on file. It's unusable for Internet and commercial purposes, but not for my hand-carry portfolio. May 13 05 03:46 pm Link Wow, girl...what did you get yourself into. Hmm, well. If I were in your situation and haven't already taken the money, I would probably tell her, that I worked with both of them as seperate models. Their separation has NOTHING to do with me as far as business goes. I plan to distribute photos to both parties as the "verbal agreement" goes. If she would rather not have the photos, then I won't bother sending them to her. I request that she doesn't use the couple shots, since "she doesn't want to remember it happened" anyway and encourage her to use the single's of her. She trying pay you off sounds very unprofessional of her. I wouldn't work with her again. May 13 05 04:11 pm Link Eh, crap, sucks to be you, but your initial thoughts seem to hold true... 1 - You can't sell the photos or profit from their use. If you do, you find yourself in an actionable position without a model release, at least for a percentage of the compensation you received. I would avoid using the image son any web based portfolio. Personal hard copy book should be fine. 2 - If the model is able to show that by using these pictures you have in any way limited her ability to work, you find yourself in a VERY actionable position. It is usually difficult to prove loss of income on her part unless she takes a whack on purpose on her general excise taxes. I think models do their tax stuff like us photogs, as private contractors, pay all of their own taxes, FICA, Social Security, etc. I guess it all depends how petty she is willing to be. It sounds like she's willing to be a heinous [email protected], so you might just want to write it off as a loss and a learning experience. Why do "learning experiences" have to suck so bad? May 13 05 04:17 pm Link Pssh! WOMEN! Forget her! She did the same thing to me! Posted By HDellinger: Okay, seriously, I'd give the male model whatever he wants in terms of copies of the photos. If you gave your word to give him photos, keep it. Period. Never break your word. Especially not because some childish girl can't handle her emotions. The female model has NO RIGHT to blackmail you, or try to pay you off, or manipulate you, just because she is too immature to handle a breakup. Her relationship is HER issue. Not yours. Don't permit her to drag you into the middle of her neurotic psychodrama. No one needs that. Posted By HDellinger: You can always remind her of the United States Copyright Law - Chapter 5, § 506, Paragraph D: May 13 05 07:49 pm Link Now, can the female model continue to use the photos you gave her without a copy of the TFP release? At the very least, she should stop using the photos you've given her. Get a TFP release from the male model, and give him copies of his solo photos. Same with the female model. That way, you all get something out of the shoot. As for the couples photos, you're likely screwed. But if she's using some of your couples photos, you should ask her to sign the release or stop using them. May 13 05 08:20 pm Link Heather, This is not your freaking problem and she is being REALLY wrong to get you involved. I think , and I could be wrong, if no release was signed you can do what you want(I mean promotionally). It's not fair and I know how much goes into your concepts creatively and monetarily. Next time, have daters sign the "booty" clause lol. May 13 05 08:45 pm Link Posted by Naomi Jay: I have heard the legal arguements but I agree that there is an inherent contract entered into on a photoshoot and for promotional use a model release is not really needed. May 13 05 11:20 pm Link Whatever it states on paper is the way it goes. If the agreement was that you can use the photos however you please, tell her to fuck off. Posted by HDellinger: Money is the devil. Don't do it!! May 14 05 04:07 am Link Hey all, thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate it. I've removed all of the images of her from OMP and I'll be taking them down from elsewhere as well. I'll email both of them a copy of the release and if they mails it back to me signed then I'll edit the photos, but otherwise I'm just going to write the shoot off as a loss and learning experience. There are many excellent models out there. Thanks again, I really appreciate it. Heather May 14 05 08:22 am Link First, she's not a model you'd ever want to work with again if this is her vendictive nature. Being "professional" means getting the job done DISPITE the petty, childish behaviour of people. Point is; the male model ALSO worked his butt off for the images and has earned them. The female model (who shall remain nameless unfortunately) needs to pull her head out and let it go. Release or no release, you always try to be accomodating and respectful of all parties; in this case, her request/demand/wish is NOT professional. My two-cents worth. May 14 05 08:36 am Link again -- too slow in my reply LOL Sounds like a good compromise ! All the best May 14 05 08:37 am Link Posted by HDellinger: oooh is this meant to entice me and to come to Chicago again lol? May 14 05 08:45 am Link Think about this the next time any of you put down wedding photographers. On a wedding I collect between 2/3 and 3/4 of the money before the wedding. I collect the balance when the couple picks up their preview prints. My contract states that they grant me the right to use photos of their wedding in my self promotion. So they break up, so what? May 14 05 08:54 am Link Posted by Naomi Jay: Posted by HDellinger: oooh is this meant to entice me and to come to Chicago again lol? Absolutely. Get out here! I wanna do some crazy stuff. So many ideas, so little time! May 14 05 09:02 am Link Posted by HDellinger: Posted by Capt Stu Beans: How am I screwed though? She's still using the images I gave her intially, including the couple shots. (one of them got her a showcase on OMP). In general if my images aren't defaming her in any way and I'm not financially profiting from them, there's no way she can tell me not to use them. They're obviously from a shoot and not a random candid incident. Doesn't that mean I'm not screwed? LEGALLY you need a release for any shot you show, especially if its recognisable as her {or if she has copies that will establish it as one of a sequence of her} Without her signiture on a relevant rlease you can have problems - if she persued it. May 14 05 09:35 am Link Posted by Michael Tappan: HEY HANG ON! May 14 05 09:46 am Link Posted by Britt: Why they broke up is irrelevant. No matter WHAT the reasons are, the female model has NO RIGHT to blackmail the photographer, or try to pay the photographer off, or manipulate the photographer, just because the female model is too immature to handle a breakup like an adult. Her romantic relationship is HER issue. Not the photographers. May 14 05 02:54 pm Link I had that problem, where a models boyfriend broke up with her over pics she took, and she wanted me to remove them (I have a release though *smile*) I told her to buy the negs and we're square. never heard from her again. I would offer her the negs for sale at double the cost. if not, then possession is 9/10ths of the law when it comes to ownership. if you display them on your site as promotional pieces only, you're well within your rights to do so, release or not. If she crops your logo off, print out the page, that way if she sues you, you can countersue for infringement. Also be sure to document and save any and all conversations, especially online. Remember, this is a BUSINESS, not a spring social. lol May 14 05 05:31 pm Link I just wanted to post a quick followup for anyone interested in where this was going. I mailed off the model releases to both the male model and the female model. Oddly enough I get a call from her today and she's going to be sending me a signed release. She apologised for any misunderstandings with feelings and phrases. I haven't yet heard back from the male, but thats ok. I'm sure he'll sign it as well. Too much drama, but at least I learned a valuable lesson. Thanks again for all of the feedback, it's highly appreciated. Most sincerely, Heather May 14 05 10:22 pm Link No, it really doesn't matter what he did. The ex I shot with deserves to be drawn, flayed, quartered and burned. The phohotrapher can still use those shots if he wants. May 14 05 10:28 pm Link Hey Heather! Sorry I jumped on this thread so late but I've had my own issues with models too, hehe! I hope you don't let this little incident get you down, I know how devoted we both are to our art! Talk soo sweety! Rich May 14 05 10:32 pm Link Posted by HDellinger: Heather, I'm very glad to hear that she seems to be coming around to being reasonable. Good news. And a good lesson. May 14 05 10:50 pm Link What an unprofessional model. eewww.  I look at it this way. No one got paid, you didnt get paid, it was a personal thing on a side. You took the images, you got original files as proof - its your work. period. even if theres no release form. She doesnt want the pics, she gets none. The other model does and has the full right to, he WAS one of the models (if he wants the pics). The images dont make a profit, so no problems! use it for your promotion, "screw her". MODEL WISE. I am speechless, you need to encounter true professionals, really. That model behavior is NOT tolerated. When I shoot, no matter with who - its business not personal. Keep your personal crap outside of it. Rip your heads off on a different territory. You dont come to work and act like that if you have a bad relationship with someone, even you boss, you wont get paid - worse you get fired. If its testing, still -it is a good place to start practice. (im always typin too fast, excuse mistakes) May 15 05 05:44 am Link |
