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Advice on dealing with difficult photographer?
Let me preface this by saying I have no problem being assertive (in a professional manner), but my latest experience is a bit new for me and I want to ask some photographers on here how their egos would handle it... I was working with an experienced photographer, whose work I felt a connection to. The model was a sweet girl, but here is my problem. He had zero style. I mean technically and technique wise his photos were flawless, but whenever I would do something or tell the model to do one thing, he would blatantly tell her NOT to do it and instead "pose" her in a very bad and (forgive me) stupid looking way. The end result was a cute girl with good hair/makeup and some great clothes looking ridiculous in some "technical" photos. Neither the model nor myself will be able to use these images and I was just doing it as a favor for him because he wanted to test with someone more experienced than what he was used to. Whenever I tried to explain to him what I was doing and why, he would just tell me that wasn't his "style." But the problem was, he didn't (and doesn't) HAVE any style. I politely reminded him that I was experienced and capable. I just feel like he was used to have people to boss around rather than work with. If this happens in the future, what's the "best" way to tell a photographer that just because they are a photographer doesn't mean they can take a good picture. HAHAH Man I am so frustrated! Jan 08 07 04:10 pm Link Taking you at your word that he was "experienced." Photographers, models, MUAs and stylists all have their own vision of what's "stylish." If the shoot was to provide him with work to market his business then it's his call. If it was for a client the it's still his call as I imagine he is shooting to keep the client happy. If this was a collabrative effort between all of you then I'd say there was some bad communication. When I do a photo shoot regardless of the reason it's always the client who I'm trying to satisfy. Ergo the client has hired me because it's my "vision" they want. I have run into this type of problem on a few occasions in the past and it became fairly serious when my directions were openly challenged on a set of a paid shoot. I ended up firing the person on the spot. Not out of meaness but it was my name and reputation on the line, not theirs. No way was I going to risk losing a client, or worse, get sued simply because one of my team doesn't see things the same as I. When the clients pay them then they can do as they choose but until that time comes.....it will always be the photographers call. Jan 08 07 04:41 pm Link Dawn Geary wrote: I can`t say I blame him. You were there for wardrobe styling, not to tell the model what to do. That is his job. If you wish to direct the model, get a camera and arrange a shoot with her Jan 08 07 04:44 pm Link If you were there because you were supposed to get sample work, then there was a communication problem up front. If you were aware of the shooters style before hand what makes you think the end results would be any different? Generally I feel it is best when only one person gives talent direction, if it were me I would pause the shoot and ask you to direct any suggestions to me. As far as the usefullness of the final imagery it's hard to pass judgement on unseen work. What you consider boring may be absolutely brillant to another. Communication is the key! Better luck next time. Alan Jan 08 07 04:56 pm Link Primal Lens wrote: Exactly. Yeah, you're not going to be able to change his "style" in the middle of a shoot. The way to deal with him is to not work with him again. Jan 08 07 05:04 pm Link I would like to see this photographers work, could you give me his website information or MM account number, Thanks. "Ridiculous posing" is an opinion, obviously, but for you to interject that way could have posed intimidation or disrespect to the photographer. I've had people on the side during shoots that have tried to help, and honestly it pissed me off, i've been in that photographers position before. In my case though, the person trying to help was creating a very uncomfortable and tasteless postition for the model to be in. But as you said, his posing was,far from tasteful and non-appealing. And in fact you could have been suggesting very useful ideas that could have helped. It was his desision to pose the models, and for him to except any other influence, is up to him. Cheers! -Steve Jan 08 07 05:08 pm Link easy solution: pay the photographer. then you are the boss and you call the shots. on shoots where it is a collaboration among MUA, stylist/designer, and myself, each of us typically have input into the posing and direction of the shoot. Generally we are all very experienced and all have good input that can benefit a shoot. While I as a photographer might not always agree with how a designer wants something shot I will shoot a few shots their way AND a few shots my way. It's not as if I'm dealing with film and can only take X amount of shots. Quite often I will have an idea that someone else might not like until they see the image and then they say WOW...now I see what you were talking about. The same can go the other way. Jan 08 07 05:15 pm Link Steve Reynolds wrote: i would also be interested in seeing the said shooters work. best to email us privately so as not to violate MM rules Jan 08 07 05:17 pm Link Giving and recieving well meant advice is a skill. How the advice is suggested has a good bearing on how the advice is taken, though it is not the only influence. He may have resented your suggestions, for whatever his reason (ego, feeling like you were being bossy, etc)... sometimes people will refuse good suggestions because it makes them feel stupid and "out done" especially if the person making the suggestions is correct. As others have pointed out, you've left out some important details here, and thats ok... I don't need, nor want, to know the whole story. "Style" is entirely subjective. The simple solution is don't work with him again. Beyond that, for the future? Stop giving suggestions when you realize they fall on deaf ears is helpful. It won't solve your opinion, but it depends on the situation whether or not your opinion is warrented anyway. Jan 08 07 05:21 pm Link I hate to say it, too, but I might very well have snapped at you, too. It depends on how you were doing, I guess, and the vibe of the shoot up to that point. But when I have someone else trying to give artistic direction while I'm shooting, I could very well get - and have gotten - angry. My best advice would be to pull him to the side, voice your concerns where no one else can hear you. Unfortunately, if he disagrees, there's nothing you can do but bite your tongue and never work with him again. Trying to assert your vision and having him contradict you is actually worse than unhelpful - it's detrimental. The model sees that and most of them are going to retreat into a shell; become even less involved in the process. I've seen that "take your pictures and let me go home" look in a model's eyes before, and it's no fun. Wish I had something better to tell you. I don't think your concerns are unjustified - they probably aren't. Unfortunately, though, it's his shoot and not yours. Jan 08 07 05:26 pm Link I make it a point to never show anger or disrespect to anyone on set (even if it's killing me inside). Any conflict and your shoot is basically over because the models expression will never get back to ware you want it. I take the input with a smile, shoot a bit and move on. A wast of my time, never, some times it works, some times it doesn't, but regardless the contributer will bend over backwards for you forever. On the other hand, if the photog is a slug, your not going to change him. Best to move on. BF Jan 08 07 05:42 pm Link Wait maybe I wasn't being clear. I wasn't on the set simply as a "wardrobe stylist" (and furthermore slightly resent the fact that anyone outside of the photographer on set is secondary, because I am quite comfortable behind the camera as well). Also, I'm not aware if the man is on MM or not. I'll have to find out. I was put in touch with him through a friend. The type of photography he is experienced in, is more or less exquisite portraits (they are flawless, hence my desire to work with him), but he had never done anything really creative or slightly edgy. It wasn't a paid shoot and it was just more or less him wanting to have something to expand his horizons. I put together the rest of the "crew" through my connections. And at *NO POINT IN TIME* did I blatantly criticize or 'step over the line' with him. In fact it was the other way around. Everyone involved (model, MUA, Hair) were all a bit "WTF?" on the set. And it's not a matter of NOT working with him again, I won't. But it's the point of where knowing what looks good (and I'm not an ego-maniac, but I am pretty confident in my tastes) versus what looks silly. Obviously it's all subjective, but in *this circumstance* I'd be hard pressed to find anyone saying the photos didn't turn out poorly. Your responses were exactly why I was asking what the best way to approach this on set would be. The whole "you're just a stylist, blah blah blah" is why I would never walk up to a photographer and correct them in front of the crew/model. Your egos bruise easily  Jan 08 07 05:42 pm Link Next time, and if it's the same type of collaborative situation you described, simply ask the photographer if she would try some shots in your style, for YOUR portfolio. If the photographer declines, then it's no longer collaboration and you may leave (with your belongings). Simple. If someone gets their "feelings hurt" because of that, that's not your problem. Jan 08 07 05:47 pm Link Brian Fischer wrote: At no point in time was there animosity on the set. My parents raised me better than that. It was more or less. llama doing her thing (very well). Photographer telling her to pose in a really amateurish way. llama posing in said way. Everyone glancing at one another. A suggestion of, "Would it be possible to see if x might work, because I am curious about y and z." Jan 08 07 05:47 pm Link Tazer him, he'll never snap at you again??  BF Jan 08 07 05:48 pm Link Clearly, the photographer you worked with did not understand what collaboration means. Let that one go and move on. Most people do understand the meaning of a collaborative effort (to get shots for everyone to use in their portfolio). Jan 08 07 05:49 pm Link K. Holden wrote: And the model probably should have said she wanted to do some shots in x, y, and z poses as well as the "poses" the photographer was suggesting. Jan 08 07 05:52 pm Link K. Holden wrote: I guess it just threw me off guard. I've never had a bad experience with a photographer. So I was at a loss whether or not this happens a lot and how to deal with it. I've been doing this for a while too, so I'm either lucky or this guy was just the exception. Jan 08 07 05:52 pm Link Maybe his style was "hey i have no idea what im doing but dont try to help me" lol Jan 08 07 05:53 pm Link Claire Elizabeth wrote: That's what it felt like!!! hahah Jan 08 07 05:55 pm Link Dawn Geary wrote: which is why WE are going to have to work together when I am in NY and do something awesome! Jan 08 07 05:55 pm Link Dawn Geary wrote: I can't speak for everyone, but that is almost the opposite of my belief. I've always approached a shoot like I'm the one *most* likely to screw everything up. I want to please the model, the stylist, the MUA, the client, myself. So part of it, I guess, is that I'm already insecure, and won't respond well if I'm called to task in front of the rest of the team. The other part is that someone has to be in charge - unfortunately, it's me. Jan 08 07 06:05 pm Link Don't worry, we all get (or will get) thrown off guard every once in a while. That's how we learn. I'm certain there are a dozen situations I'll get myself into where I'll be at a loss. Anyway, I have a feeling I could get totally flamed for what I said, so this is how I would handle a situation like this if it ever came up: 1. Collaboration means no one is the shoot director, everyone is. The MUA is there for make-up, the wardrobe stylist for garments, the photographer for light and capture/composition, and the model is there to pose. 2. That said, in a collaborative effort, a good team will accept and take others' opinions into consideration. And the photographer will certainly take all involved parties' portfolios into consideration. 3. If someone does something not up to par with someone else's work: a) If the photographer asks for poses the model thinks are not great, the model shouldn't do them. The model can say something nice, like, "That's one idea or I could do this," and then build or slightly change the pose to something better. If the photographer insists on a particular pose, the model should really say, "Hey, I'm the model. I model. You're the photographer, you photograph." I mean, she's not going to insist he use a different white-balance or frame the image differently. b) Pretty much the same goes for anyone else. You hope for the best, and try to trust each other and work together. c) If you're the stylist or MUA, it's very easy to just dis-associate yourself and your name with the finished product. That's more difficult if you're the model because your face is on the shot. So, models be aware of what you're doing when you do it. Once those photographs are taken and you've signed a release, they are not your property and dumb-ass shots of you with your ass in the air are at the photographer's (in)descrection. d) Did I miss anything? Jan 08 07 06:09 pm Link It is unfortunate that he did not take your suggestions into account. Having seen your work, it is quite clear that you are quite good at what you do. A great deal of people don't realize the amount of work that goes into a creating an amazing fashion/beauty picture. You assemble a team of professionals so they can contribute their talent and experience. Just because of your specific title/profession (ie. stylist, makeup artist, hair stylist or whatever) does not mean you don't know if a certain pose or expression works or not. If you are a seasoned professional, regardless of title, you would have seen enough shoots to know what works and what dosen't. I've been at this for the past six years, and knock on wood, never had I experienced non- cooperation between all of the talents and we're talking major talents in their fields. Yes, everyone has their own opinion and because we are professionals, we make it work. I've assisted on many shoots with photographers who are far better than myself and they have always appreciated my lowly assistant inputs as well as input from others throughout their shoots. When I'm shooting, I welcome suggestions as long as it's not disruptive and does not confuse the model. I wish I can see every little detail when I'm looking through my viewfinder, but I can't. If this photographer was serious about expanding his horizon then he did himself a great dis-service. To expand one's horizon is to be open minded, to listen and to learn. In a way, it might have been a good lesson for him. If the shots are as bad as you claim they are, he will be asking himself very quickly why his audience don't like them. Basically you did what you were suppose to do. Maybe next time, start a coup, tie him up and show him how its done Jan 08 07 07:12 pm Link Thank you for clarifying, Dawn, that helps greatly. Understanding how the collaboration was set up is much better than trying to guess. Here is what I think was going on: Since you explained that this was an attempt to be a learning situation for him, I believe that he ended up way out of his comfort zone, and that made him feel terrible. So he did whatever he knew to do, and unfortunately that ended up in cheesey shots. He was too proud to take the advice of someone that knew better than him, and thus the discomfort began to spread to the rest of the team. Heres the problem: Learning in and of itself is uncomfortable! Its the act of taking things that you know and are familiar to you, and expanding your pool of what you know. When you learn something new, whether its cooking, dancing, a language, driving, driving stick, handling a dog, art, a different medium of art, to knit, or WHATEVER it will feel uncomfortable. Trying to learn to knit is like trying to eat with chopsticks while braiding yarn. Yeah, it feels WIERD! Trying to learn to cook is like trying to juggle liquids without a container, while spinning plates on a straw on your head. It is difficult! Learning isn't made to be a happy thing. The older we get and the less we put our brains to use learning a NEW skill, the HARDER it is to learn a new skill. How easy it is to teach an old dog new tricks is directly dependant on how long ago it was that you taught that old dog a new trick. If it was yesterday, and the day before, why, he'll be just fine. If it was six years ago, he's gonna be challenged. So, knowing that... what happens when we try to learn something new and we're out of practice in the art of learning? Our brain, as a safety mechanism, tries to find ANYTHING that is familiar and go hide. You are trying to learn guitar, but you'll never go play infront of anybody because you're too afraid, thats your brain keeping you safe! So you get stuck playing the same three chords.. but boy are you good at them. You try the fourth chord, but it sucks, so you safely stick to the first three. Trouble is if you don't go play guitar in front of someone else thats better than you are, then you can't get any guidance on how to play that cursed fourth chord. Your brain is dooming your learning by trying to keep you safe. So what the heck does all that mean? It means that our photographer was so uncomfortable in uncharted territory that he became afraid, and his pride got in the way of his humility to ask for help. "Its photography after all, I take great portraits, so why can't I figure this out. I'm a photographer, I don't need a stylist help...." Its sad... but this is a very common human thing. We're all human, I suspect if you examine your learning experiences you'll discover that you've probably run through the same scenario at some point or another... So, in all honesty, Dawn, there is very little you could have done to make the situation better. Understanding what was happening to the photographer, the best thing is to really let him flounder for a while. One of three things will happen, either he'll figure it out on his own, or he'll suck until he decides he needs help, or the likely brain safety mechanism will kick in, and he'll just quit. Quitting is our brain taking us back to our safe place. "I don't need to do any other type of photography, I'm really good at portraits... I don't need that crap!" Its likely that he knew he was struggling, and was hating life. Its very possible that he might come to you and apologize later, and ask for help. Then you can gently guide him and give him pointers and critique the images he took in a supportive way to allow him the chance to learn and expand his comfort zone. Hopefully that is what happens. Because it would be a good ending to the situation. Jan 08 07 07:41 pm Link I'd say don't say anything and move on to the next. It would be unprofessional to say anything. Jan 08 07 07:49 pm Link just like in baseball the firstbaseman PLAYS firstbase he doesnt pitch, he doesnt manage the team, he doesnt sell hotdogs its the photog's call, IF YOU knew that he had NO STYLE (as you said) why did you bother to work with him????? i had a similar experience with a designer in FL, she showed me a book of her designs shot by several photogs in FL, EVERY PICTURE SUCKED, so i agreed to re-shoot some of them for her. it was when she started telling the models what to do, after i told her politely several times not to, that i just ended the shoot. Jan 08 07 10:25 pm Link Dawn Geary wrote: Doesn't sound like our egos are the ones being bruised. Jan 09 07 10:00 am Link Primal Lens wrote: Or get her number and set her up with a photographer of your choice in your wardrobe. Jan 09 07 10:10 am Link As a model, I have a hard time taking pinpoint direction from the photographer...if I was getting it from the wardrobe stylist too, that would add some unnecessary frustration on the set. Jan 09 07 10:16 am Link Making a value judgement about how good the photographer is, or is not, may make you feel better, but it really doesn't even have to go that far. You have to remember that photography is an artistic pursuit. That means, there are few objective criteria by which we can judge a photographer's merits. What you perceive as excellent photography, another reasonable human being may find horrible. And what you think is horrible, others may think is stunningly beautiful. For example, many photographers here think that Annie Leibowitz is an over-rated photographer who got to where she is by sleeping with rock stars. Others think she is an amazing artist and a great human being. Who's right? Who cares? If you like her work, you'll go to the museum and look at it and you'll buy her books. If you don't like it, you'll make pissy comments about her to your friends and acquaintances. So, what I'm trying to say is. . . if you have a bad experience with somebody -- you don't like their attitudes, or their work, or whatever. . . well, that happens. Just move on and forget about it. Regards, Paul Dawn Geary wrote: Jan 09 07 10:22 am Link I always try to be open-minded and open-ended in my approach to my work, and often ask for ideas that others may have. I do not wish to stifle the creativeness of others, and by allowing this interaction, hopefully everyone wins! Jan 09 07 10:26 am Link Alan Farkas wrote: I agree wholeheartedly with Alan. Jan 09 07 10:28 am Link Dawn Geary wrote: Based on what you're describing, nothing more needs to be said. Just suck it up and let him be. Choose to not work with him in the future or at least make sure he's paying you. Jan 09 07 10:31 am Link Sounds a little strange to read that he posed them in a strange or stupid way, especially since you were attracted to his work, and not the other way around?? I for one do not like anyone besides me and the model to work on poses and stuff like that.. Stay in the dressing and figure out what you will style her in next. Jan 09 07 10:33 am Link |
