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So.. I put up a thread a few days ago asking why models on here never expect to pay photographers for their work on this site. As usual, when I open my "mouth" in ignorance and listen to the answers I learn from it. So.. apparently this site is NOT about networking in order to make a living being a professional photographer. Nor is it about networking in order to make a living from being a professional model. ModelMayhem is indeed the land of tfp/tfcd. There's SO many pretty faces and bodies out there to choose from that'll "work" for free, there's never any need to pay for a professionals services or experience. (they call it "work" but it's actually just a game to many of them) And in return, there's just too many photographers (or hacks) out there willing to take pics of pretty women for free, that most models on here see no need to hire and pay a photographer. Amazing what you learn when you speak in ignorance and then listen. Bottom line?? ANY money paid must be paid by a third party, cuz nobody is willing to pay just to build their ports. k.. done with that one... And I'll hang around this site just cuz it's fun. But I guess that's all it's good for.  Is this the only purpose of mm?? To have fun and shoot, and be shot for free? Jan 05 07 03:11 am Link That all depends on how you work it. MM can be a good place for a portfolio like yours, because anybody can see your work (no nudes that I saw). Thus, if you post your direct e-mail, somebody browsing from outside might like your work and want to hire you. The site is also good for locating models in your area when you're working on specific tests. Yeah, it's "free," but if you want to try out a new set or a new setup, why not get a free model? It's also good for meeting other photographers. In California, there are plenty of like-minded shooters who might be good for networking. Finally, what's wrong with a little fun? Or inspiration? You can get both off a site like this. Jan 05 07 03:18 am Link Michael McGowan wrote: Nothing wrong with it, Michael.. at all!! If I didn't love what I do, I wouldn't do it with as much passion as I do. Jan 05 07 03:27 am Link Jack Blake wrote: Unless the photographer plans on selling the pictures. That happens here too. Usually involves the more established photographers who know where to find certain kinds of clients, and models who have a track record. Jan 05 07 03:31 am Link Ched wrote: Again, Ched.. I guess that was my point. Third party moneys from those buying the pictures. Jan 05 07 03:50 am Link i'm here for free content to add to my site to drive traffic up.  Jan 05 07 04:56 am Link Hey Jack I know how you feel. On general mayhem forum there is a topic called TFCD? The new model wanted to know what it was? I made a comment that most professional photographers don't do it much and basically explained the advantages of paying a professional for model portfolios or just for fun. I was quickly bashed by multiple hobbyiests and the TFCD fanatics for even suggesting such a thing. The problem on the internet is there are so many clueless newbies that think if it's free its a good deal and plenty of GWCs to perpetuate it which explains why most of them never make any money modeling. They keep going to amateurs for freebies and never make connections with pros who do paid work with 3rd parties or their own paid projects but also usually charge for portfolio sessions. And the newbies don't realize that most of the TFCD offers are only if they do topless, degrading or nudie pics because those are easy to sell and the photographers doing that usually have them sign releases that they get all the profits on the pics. They dont understand they'd be better off just paying a reasonable amount to a professional who will only do the photos they need for their career not raunch that is an easy sell for the TFCD photographers. Jan 05 07 05:19 am Link i can definately see all sides of this, but even the most established, high demand models need to update thier portfolios all the time to keep with their current look and style, so this is a good place for people just looking to expand with hopes of getting more work... you are very talented! cheers! Jan 05 07 05:24 am Link Some photogs on here actually have connections to real work for models (note that I said SOME). However, since this is an internet "modeling" site where everyone and anyone can sign up, they can't always be sure the model CAN model or will even show up. If a photographer wants to pay a model, they should look into agency models. OR use this site to do test shoots with models to see how they model and if they are reliable. Besides, paid work is usually paid by the client (campaign, magazine, etc.). Models shouldn't expect to sign up with this site and think they'll land the cover of Vogue or a campaign with Versace. Clients look into agencies for their models. Everyone needs to update their profiles (models should get new pics done every 6 months or when their looks change), so this is a great place for everyone. Jan 05 07 06:51 am Link I don't understand your problem. Yeah, there are a lot of people here who don't aspire to do anything beyond TFP. There are also models and photographers here who are deeply involved in the business and make their living at it. Personally, I think too many of us get too involved in trying to create spin -- trying to mold the world into what WE want it to be, instead of molding ourselves to recognize the realities we must face. The world is the way it is. It's never been easy. Nothing will be handed to you on a silver platter. You have to find your own way, and work hard to achieve greatness. Whining about stuff you have no control over and no ability to impact is not productive. Do what you want. If you want to be a successful professional and you work hard at it, you might succeed. If you want to do photography purely as a form of personal artistic expression, no one is standing in your way except yourself. If you just want to make sexy pictures of hot chicks -- hey, you can do that to. It's all happening. You do what you like. I recommend worrying less about what other people are doing and thinking, and more about how YOU'RE doing, and you'll be happier. The purpose of MM -- for you -- is whatever you give it and take from it. But trying to mold it into something else than what it is -- the sum of the various real human beings involved at any given moment -- good luck with that. Sounds like a waste of time to me. Regards, Paul Jack Blake wrote: Jan 05 07 07:27 am Link Jack Blake wrote: My opinion exactly. but then I don't operate a portrait studio. Maybe you do? I say that becasue there are no agency quality images on your profile ...Not to say they aren't good cause they definitely are..just not what an agent would want in a model port for fashion or commercial or theatrical work..the ONLY reasons a model would want a book other than..having fun with it. So how do I hurt your business (what ever it is?)? Look around, there are super heavy weight LA "known" photographers on here. They are getting the money first. Then MAYBE the rest of us..but probably not. Jan 05 07 07:36 am Link Jack Blake wrote: A lot of people here are exploring their hobbies. Some people, like me, probably won't go very far with it. I'm just too damn short! But if I can build a book, it just might take me somewhere, so what hell? I'm having fun Jan 05 07 07:38 am Link Like someone said, it's all in how you work it. MM isn't my "book me" profile, but my "here's my samples" profile. I've been lurking the forums for weeks, and I take it for what it is, mainly a socializing place for models and photographers. Jan 05 07 07:53 am Link I have been a full time, professional studio photographer (in private practice) for over 30 years. It has been very rewarding in every way and for that I am truly grateful. However, as such we don't choose our subjects.... they choose us. MM affords me the opportunity to "choose a subject" I want to work with. They help me expand my market by creating images in a genre that my clients are not in the market for. It expands my portfolio and adds diversity. I can't tell you how many times I have booked a wedding, and had the bride tell me how beautiful my glamour work is...... even when she herself wasn't interested in that style of work. MM is a great opportunity for both models and photographers who are "willing to make it what they want it to be". In the end, MM has in fact, helped me make more money... "by proxy". Perhaps one must be in the day to day business of photography to understand how that really works. Jan 05 07 08:07 am Link Larry Brown Camera wrote: This should be in bold. Very well put. Jan 05 07 09:22 am Link I'm kinda confused... Did you expect that models would come here to pay photographers? Did you expect that you would be paid for your services when you signed up here? What infact did you expect this site to be about that has been so dashed apart? I think Bang Bang and Larry Brown have really made important statements. Read and reread them. This business is what you make of it. Expectations can be real killers. Jan 05 07 10:10 am Link NC17 wrote: My unrealistic expectations were perhaps based on an overblown opinion of the quality of my work. When I came onto mm, what I saw were MANY "aspiring" models that desperately needed good photogs to build decent ports. I also saw a proliferation of photographers that do nudes (I don't cuz I'm also a family photog, and I need to have my port accessable to even children) and I was hoping that I'd be "in demand" as a really good, and 'safe' photographer to work with. Jan 05 07 12:43 pm Link Jack Blake wrote: Thanks for clarifying. I suppose I can see how one could assume such... Though I guess the biggest distinction is that this site isn't geared towards commercial type business, in the sense that the models here (while they say they are aspiring to greatness) really aren't going to go anywhere. Few will go to agencies, and those that do are smart enough to figure out how to make the game work for them. This site is much more geared towards networking and making connections than actually making commercial money. Some people on here do make money from this site, but they go about it in a manner that allows the site to work for them. Jan 05 07 12:59 pm Link Whaaaa?? no whining??? aww OP that is no fun at all... You might actually add to the reputation of MM with that type pf profesional attitude... Glad to see you are staying... Have I told NC17 that she is uber smart and I like her way of thinking this week? Jan 05 07 01:06 pm Link My photography is done as a creative outlet. This site helps me to find talented people who can assist in making my work better. It is a great source for finding models and advice on everything from cameras and lights to post production techniques. The site is not going to create a pile of money for you, but it will provide talent and information that is priceless. Jan 05 07 02:38 pm Link 36% of my web site traffic comes from Model Mayhem. Maybe that will lead to a paying job one day. Jan 05 07 02:41 pm Link My MM photographers are NOT at all "hacks". Jan 05 07 03:17 pm Link Well it is refreshing to see someone come to the realization that they were wrong and move on. The Internet and developing technologies are producing a major effect on the business model of nearly everything. Kodak did not give much thought to digital. Ask them what they think today. The Record industry laughed at the offer of digital marketing. Ask them what they think today. Ebay, Amazon and other totally restructured the retail industry. It is certainly taking a toll on the photography industry. Papers are printing phone images. Corporate portraits are done by their secretaries. The list goes on. Model portfolios are no longer a viable business model unless you are associated with an agency for the most part. You either adapt to the change and learn to utilize the new tools or get left behind. Jan 05 07 03:27 pm Link Jack Blake wrote: No, only for wannabe models. There are thost that shoot for free and don't build a good book. They are not that serious about a modeling career per se. Mostly like the attention from GWC. That's about it. Once that is over and done with well... That's that. As stated above, few make it. Jan 05 07 03:30 pm Link |
