Deadly Design Make-up wrote:
well maybe you need to flash a little $$$$$ this might help, maybe let the stylists that you have contacted know you will be suppling an awsome lunch too.
I have worked with a couple of new photographers and most ask the model to bring the "look" and clothing with them. Maybe have a "styliy" friend of yours help you out untill you can get some "love" from a professional stylist. Life is tough in the begining hang in there

Yes in deed.  Money will help.  But, if you don't have that, focus on things that would enhance a stylist book.  Example: I look for photographers who like to shoot fashion.  They may say they do but I look at there work.  Sure their portfolio may show a lot of artistic work but, if they can show fashionable images too, I'll give them a try.  Example: MUAs want images that showcase the... FACE.  Get my point?  Shoot what you like but also shoot what other people will want to see in their book.

Good luck.

Roshar wrote:
I think they may feel your work will not spotlight theirs.
The images you have posted are ok for a photographers standpoint, but for a MUA
they are dark and distant.
Your photography is actually good, but it will help if you put up a couple of images  where a MUA can visualize what their work would look like if you shot it.

Ditto.. The images are very dark.

Roshar wrote:
You need to change your bio immediatly if you want models to work with you!!!
You are sounding-in your bio- unsure of your capabilities and not liking your own work.
This will be a MAJOR turnoff to assembling a team.
Your stuff is not bad at all! I can see you have a little somethin' somethin' going on. I actually wouldnt mind doing a shoot with you.
But CHANGE the bio NOW!

"cracks whip!"

Yes my dear... your bio does suck.  ((Narvell reaches over to give you a hug because of the whippin you so rightfully deserve.)) 

Women don't like weak men and stylist don't like weak sounding photographers.  Be a man!  Hold yourself with a good firm grip and change that bio.

Roshar wrote:
You need to change your bio immediatly if you want models to work with you!!!
You are sounding-in your bio- unsure of your capabilities and not liking your own work.
This will be a MAJOR turnoff to assembling a team.
Your stuff is not bad at all! I can see you have a little somethin' somethin' going on. I actually wouldnt mind doing a shoot with you.
But CHANGE the bio NOW!

"cracks whip!"

yeah the other night i decided to delete my beautiful bio because i got so frustrated with my photography.  my pictures dont' show my talent right now.  i know i can do so much better, i know it.

Narvell wrote:
Yes my dear... your bio does suck.  ((Narvell reaches over to give you a hug because of the whippin you so rightfully deserve.)) 

Women don't like weak men and stylist don't like weak sounding photographers.  Be a man!  Hold yourself with a good firm grip and change that bio.

I'll change it. But I really don't know what to say.  What kind of photographer am I? Glamour? no. Fashion? not really. Fetish? definitely not.  I only know one thing, I like crazy looking pictures and that's it.  And I know I can make those pictures.  Give me a few weeks, I'll try my best.

edit: I changed my profile, will anyone give me feedback on it?  it's still a bit rough

Roshar wrote:
Its much better- just take off..

"I'm not a glamour photographer. I'm not a fashion photographer. I'm not a fetish photographer. And I'm not a fine art photographer.
I can't put a name to what style of photography I shoot."

Too many negatives and for some reason it said amature to me.

Everything else is great and I would keep.

Just say you like to experiment with your photography and leave it at that.
There is no need to defend your work- it isnt bad.

K, will do. thank you, Roshar.

Narvell wrote:
Women don't like weak men and stylist don't like weak sounding photographers.  Be a man!  Hold yourself with a good firm grip and change that bio.

Haha just wait till you read my bio.

Justin, more light. Give the stylist something to work with. Try location shooting.

Marko Cecic-Karuzic wrote:
Guys, he's a kid. And a pretty talented one. No need to flash the cash for help, dude. Ya don't need it. You've got a lot of time to keep plugging away. Assist and work for anybody. And pretty soon these people will be flashing you cash to help them with their books. But you won't need it because you'll have moved on to greater things.

The number one reason I would turn down a photographer is lighting.  If a photographer can light a model properly and the model is good I know I can get good shots.

I agree that you should assist really good photographers.  It's all about the lighting for us.....we need good even light, we need the models to glow.....most of us can't use the kind of work you have in your portfolio in ours.  I am not saying that there isnt a place for dark photos as well but you have to show us you can light a model to show off the makeup and clothing or what would be the point in working with you free?

Justin Huang wrote:

I'll change it. But I really don't know what to say.  What kind of photographer am I? Glamour? no. Fashion? not really. Fetish? definitely not.  I only know one thing, I like crazy looking pictures and that's it.  And I know I can make those pictures.  Give me a few weeks, I'll try my best.

edit: I changed my profile, will anyone give me feedback on it?  it's still a bit rough

Better.  Much better.  As for what kind of photographer, just put your are a photographer who enjoys capturing artistic images.

Marko Cecic-Karuzic wrote:
He's not yet in the situation where he needs to settle for that sort of work, honestly. Being that young and (assumably) without need to be providing a living to self and family for a little bit means that his work (and work experience assisting) could very well open him the type of doors and develop himself in ways that he may never have to settle for that sort of work at all...

I'd really rather he learn and develop himself, his own work, his own vision, his own preferences, and so forth. And work for others who know better for a number of reasons. He really doesn't need to worry about "pro" level make-up and styling yet because he doesn't need a portfolio that's going to get him any ad campaigns next season. He doesn't need that yet. There's time. And by the time he's ready, I'm really willing to lay odds he won't have to be a whore to stylists or MUAs unless he really wants to shoot beauty ads or fashion illustrations.

Wish I could start again that young.

a whore to makeup aritsts and stylists?  what is that?   
apparently he would like to work with professional artists and stylists, nothing wrong with that, it doesnt make him a "whore"  .

It certainly can't hurt his portfolio to work with pros and yes, until he can provide great shots for an artist or stylist....he will have to pay the good ones...he can get a beginner free or cheap, thats just how it works and i'ts never too early to start working with other professionals and learning how to work with a stylist and makeup artist.

Mary wrote:
It certainly can't hurt his portfolio to work with pros and yes, until he can provide great shots for an artist or stylist....he will have to pay the good ones...he can get a beginner free or cheap, thats just how it works and i'ts never too early to start working with other professionals and learning how to work with a stylist and makeup artist.

I agree, with Mary. It is never to early to learn how to work with professional stylists.

Marko Cecic-Karuzic wrote:
He's not yet in the situation where he needs to settle for that sort of work, honestly. Being that young and (assumably) without need to be providing a living to self and family for a little bit means that his work (and work experience assisting) could very well open him the type of doors and develop himself in ways that he may never have to settle for that sort of work at all...

I'd really rather he learn and develop himself, his own work, his own vision, his own preferences, and so forth. And work for others who know better for a number of reasons. He really doesn't need to worry about "pro" level make-up and styling yet because he doesn't need a portfolio that's going to get him any ad campaigns next season. He doesn't need that yet. There's time. And by the time he's ready, I'm really willing to lay odds he won't have to be a whore to stylists or MUAs unless he really wants to shoot beauty ads or fashion illustrations.

Wish I could start again that young.

I agree with you.  I've been talking to some other photographers and they've said the same.  It's important for me to pursue my own style.  Right now, I rather be a photographer than an entrepreneur.  I found a friend who is pretty good at fashion and makeup and I'll see if she would like to help me out.  For professional stylists and makeup artists, I think I'll wait for them.  I think I'm just going to concentrate on my own photography for a while.

Thank you for the response,
Justin

Justin Huang wrote:
the thing i'm worried about if i work with professional stylists. is that i might have to compromise my vision for a stylist's needs.  like maybe the stylist wants certain areas like the face to be more clear, but my vision disagrees. it's hard to satisfy both vision and style.  but my shots could really use a stylist.

i have a solution though. i can shoot my own thing. then i can shoot a simple headshot for the makeup artist.  then i can organize a shot to emphasize the clothing.  they will be three different shots, all geared to one member of the party. would that work?

yes, you need to get shots that show your work and your vision, but you need to take photos of the stylist work and the MUA's work for their book.

Crazy Benny wrote:

yes, you need to get shots that show your work and your vision, but you need to take photos of the stylist work and the MUA's work for their book.

i don't know if i agree with this.  i have faced this dilemma on many occasions.  what do i owe the make-up/hair/wardrobe stylists that i work with when i shoot?  ultimately, i hope we are all striving for the same goal: to make a great photograph.  we are all collaborating and working as a team.  i don't believe one member's vision supersedes another.  the whole has to work.  if i am shooting for the make-up artist or stylist's book, then i am compromising my own vision.  and, in doing so, am doing the entire team a disservice.  when you look through anyone's book, you will hopefully find great pictures.  anyone can see what the make-up artist, hair stylist or wardrobe stylist contributed to a great photo.  you don't have to specifically provide clean, evenly lit photos to the other member's of the team.  remember, your name is attached to every photo.  on the other hand, as long as you're all there, why not?

craig wrote:

i don't know if i agree with this.  i have faced this dilemma on many occasions.  what do i owe the make-up/hair/wardrobe stylists that i work with when i shoot?  ultimately, i hope we are all striving for the same goal: to make a great photograph.  we are all collaborating and working as a team.  i don't believe one member's vision supersedes another.  the whole has to work.  if i am shooting for the make-up artist or stylist's book, then i am compromising my own vision.  and, in doing so, am doing the entire team a disservice.  when you look through anyone's book, you will hopefully find great pictures.  anyone can see what the make-up artist, hair stylist or wardrobe stylist contributed to a great photo.  you don't have to specifically provide clean, evenly lit photos to the other member's of the team.  remember, your name is attached to every photo.  on the other hand, as long as you're all there, why not?

the issue becomes one of practicality....you wont get an artist or stylist to work wtih you unless you shoot something for him or her, so if you need him or her, you have to do something outside of your vision for at least part of the shoot....

this is good practice for anyone that ever intends to have paying clients.  Paying clients have their own vision and if you cant make that vision a reality you will forever be just shooting for yourself...and thats fine if thats your goal but if a photographer ever wants real clients working with a team and someone elses vision is a must.

Mary wrote:

the issue becomes one of practicality....you wont get an artist or stylist to work wtih you unless you shoot something for him or her, so if you need him or her, you have to do something outside of your vision for at least part of the shoot....

this is good practice for anyone that ever intends to have paying clients.  Paying clients have their own vision and if you cant make that vision a reality you will forever be just shooting for yourself...and thats fine if thats your goal but if a photographer ever wants real clients working with a team and someone elses vision is a must.

i think you missed my point, or i was not explicit enough in my original post.

i will try to be brief and avoid a lengthy diatribe about art vs. commerce...
an artist or stylist, like paying clients, will work with me for my vision.  they will work with me because i create beautiful images...images they like and want.  i do not work alone.  fashion photography is a collaboration.  it is like directing.  as the director (or photographer), my responsibility is to the story.  ultimately, every decision, from casting the model to hiring the make-up artist, is dictated by the story.  and, everyone working should be working to support that story.  now, if you are shooting beauty or glamour that could be different.  but, the original poster is not.  he should stick to his vision and if that attracts other talented people, and it will, then good for him.  if not, then he has made a compromise and his work as well as those that work with him will suffer.  still, as i said earlier, if you're there, why not put a light right up to the model's face and shoot a clean and even roll for the make-up and hair people?  just do so knowing that when others see it, it is your name that is attached, and therefore becomes representative of your work.

craig wrote:
i don't know if i agree with this.  i have faced this dilemma on many occasions.  what do i owe the make-up/hair/wardrobe stylists that i work with when i shoot?

If you're not paying, you owe the make-up/hair/wardrobe stylists the most useful photos you can offer to them.  They have given you their best; you owe them the same.

It's not about one's vision superceding anyone else's.  Just fit their work into your vision.

And as Mary said, those photos that get the make-up/hair/wardrobe stylists jobs will also get other make-up/hair/wardrobe stylists to want to work with you.  That is, as Martha Lapis would say, a good thing.

Brian Diaz wrote:

If you're not paying, you owe the make-up/hair/wardrobe stylists the most useful photos you can offer to them.  They have given you their best; you owe them the same.

It's not about one's vision superceding anyone else's.  Just fit their work into your vision.

And as Mary said, those photos that get the make-up/hair/wardrobe stylists jobs will also get other make-up/hair/wardrobe stylists to want to work with you.  That is, as Martha Lapis would say, a good thing.

of course their work fits into my vision.  i have said many times, and most of you know, it is a collaboration that includes the best efforts of everyone involved including the model.  still, everyone should have the same goal in mind: making a great picture.  period.  i would rather someone say to me 'great picture' than 'great styling (or make-up or hair...).'  again, back to the directing analogy, if you ever listen to stunt people or visual effects artists speak about their work, they all say the same thing.  they want their work NOT to be noticed.  like the make-up artists, costumers and actors they are all working toward the whole of creating a great picture.  one that many can enjoy, not just the few within their field.  i know this is subjective.

MHana wrote:
craig,

I think that logic is fine if it is a paid shoot.  But if it you are asking for a low cost or free shoot then you need to deliver what is needed for the books of those participants.   They are doing this free or low cost shoot to get good work.

If you shoot tests for an agency then you need to deliver something that is needed for the models book not just a good photo.   A good shot for a book and a good shot might not be the same thing.

One might be nice to look at and all but will it get the person more work or allow them to work with better people.

well, again, it is subjective.  but, how can you say "a good shot for a book and a good shot might not be the same thing?"  it's a good shot.  and, that's what we are all striving for first and foremost.  keeping the thread focused on the original poster's concerns, if he wants to do a shoot three different ways to appease every member of his team, that is his business.  but, he is only compromising his own vision (and integrity).  and, who wants that?

craig wrote:
but, how can you say "a good shot for a book and a good shot might not be the same thing?"

Most magazine covers have average at best photographs, but they are great covers.  They sell magazines.  Sometimes photos that get models jobs are not the best photos that come out of a shoot.  Same goes for styling...

Brian Diaz wrote:

Most magazine covers have average at best photographs, but they are great covers.  They sell magazines.  Sometimes photos that get models jobs are not the best photos that come out of a shoot.  Same goes for styling...

...and make-up...and hair.  at what point is the photographer making a great picture for himself, according to his vision? 

https://modelmayhem.com/pic.php?pic_id=43d109b52bf89

sorry, i couldn't figure out how to get this photo into the post.  these were from a test two years ago.  i believe they are great photos, wherein the make-up artist (mara), hair stylist (nikki), model (bianca) and wardrobe designer (nick verreos...yes, from project runway) all worked well as a team.  is there any one member of the team who can not benefit from these photographs?  i can assure you that nothing great would have been achieved had i worried about anyone else's books.  my responsibility to myself, the model and the other artists is to take beautiful pictures.  i know...it's subjective.

craig wrote:
...and make-up...and hair.  at what point is the photographer making a great picture for himself, according to his vision?

When he's made sure that the team is properly compensated.  And if that's not in the form of taking a few steps forward to get a better view of the hair and makeup, it better be in the form of cold, hard cash.

Take a look at some MUA books.  Note how many of the photos are full-length and how many are head and shoulders (or closer).

(By the way, fantastic work on the linked photos.  )

Justin Huang wrote:

I agree with you.  I've been talking to some other photographers and they've said the same.  It's important for me to pursue my own style.  Right now, I rather be a photographer than an entrepreneur.  I found a friend who is pretty good at fashion and makeup and I'll see if she would like to help me out.  For professional stylists and makeup artists, I think I'll wait for them.  I think I'm just going to concentrate on my own photography for a while.

Thank you for the response,
Justin

This is exactly the right idea for now. This and assisting. Professional stylists and MUAs will be very important to you at some future point, when your goal is to sell images and make a living off of your photography. The more advanced your photographic style and technique and knowledge and understanding of the culture of photography is at that time, the better you will do. At this point you're right, you don't need your portfolio to make you any money at this time. So concentrate on growing and developing your vision, what you and only you can say with a camera, and on learning technique and photographic culture by working part-time as an assistant. You'll learn all the people skills you need to deal with stylists and MUAs (and clients!) by osmosis simply by sweeping up a good pro's studio and carrying his C-stands and keeping your eyes and your ears open. After a while, one day you'll realize that you are simply one of the professional world simply because you've been around them and have been working on your own photography and it will all come together.