Mary wrote:

the issue becomes one of practicality....you wont get an artist or stylist to work wtih you unless you shoot something for him or her, so if you need him or her, you have to do something outside of your vision for at least part of the shoot....

this is good practice for anyone that ever intends to have paying clients.  Paying clients have their own vision and if you cant make that vision a reality you will forever be just shooting for yourself...and thats fine if thats your goal but if a photographer ever wants real clients working with a team and someone elses vision is a must.

Mary, my use of the word "whore" probably made your ears ring, and I can understand and appreciate that. My point is that stylists and make-up artists (and hairstylists, and a lot of other players in the business end of things such as reps, publicists, producers, bookers, etc) are extremely important for the purpose of producing a professional-grade portfolio that allows a photographer to sell images. I'll even go further and say that the polish that those provide is MORE important to a professional-grade portfolio than the vision of the photographer himself, if the desired goal is SIMPLY to sell imagery. A photographer with little vision but a professional package can make a living with photography. He will never be a Testino or a Newton or an Avedon however. Because what seperates them from a common commercial shooter is a sense of verve in photographing somebody else's agenda. That sense of verve is rarely spawned in the professional crucible (where the agenda by necessity is simply to get "the shot" that the level of his clientele needs on time, on demand, and on budget), but rather where it's given a chance to grow for its own sake. The OP is in an enviable position where he does not need to sell images probably for a while yet. He needs to develop as a person and as an artist first; that sense of verve needs to grow, and if he follows this route and assists and becomes a part of this professional photo world, then that sense of verve will be as natural to him as breathing, and then he'll have a chance to work with the really big boys and girls. No sense trying to rush him along to make himself a professional photo entrepreneur (his choice of words; I think he's got the right idea) before it's time.

Brian Diaz wrote:

When he's made sure that the team is properly compensated.  And if that's not in the form of taking a few steps forward to get a better view of the hair and makeup, it better be in the form of cold, hard cash.

Take a look at some MUA books.  Note how many of the photos are full-length and how many are head and shoulders (or closer).

(By the way, fantastic work on the linked photos.  )

thank you.

most of the MU books i have seen are evenly split between wides and close-ups, and are at best 60/40 on the side of close-ups (of course).  i am more impressed by a book of great photographs than a book of close-ups of evenly lit heads against a white background.  i want to see how an artist thinks and contributes to the whole of a concept as part of a team.  but, then, i don't shoot beauty.  and, neither does the original poster.

craig wrote:

thank you.

most of the MU books i have seen are evenly split between wides and close-ups, and are at best 60/40 on the side of close-ups (of course).  i am more impressed by a book of great photographs than a book of close-ups of evenly lit heads against a white background.  i want to see how an artist thinks and contributes to the whole of a concept as part of a team.  but, then, i don't shoot beauty.  and, neither does the original poster.

Ding ding ding ding ding! I'd said something earlier on another MUA thread ("what makes a great make-up artist). Team members ideally should have more than just good skills, my favorites bring something creatively to the table, and I for one like to see that. Because I'm a fashion/lifestyle shooter, not a fashion/beauty shooter which as a lot of people on this thread realize are two very different things.

Marko Cecic-Karuzic wrote:

Ding ding ding ding ding! I'd said something earlier on another MUA thread ("what makes a great make-up artist). Team members ideally should have more than just good skills, my favorites bring something creatively to the table, and I for one like to see that. Because I'm a fashion/lifestyle shooter, not a fashion/beauty shooter which as a lot of people on this thread realize are two very different things.

exactly.  i realized after my third posting in this thread that we (photographers and sylists) were never going to see eye to eye.  that is why i tell them before we shoot that i am not shooting for their book.  i don't want to see any wild, just quit the MAC counter faces, unless the story warrants it.  my goal is simply to make the best pictures i can, and hopefully everyone will benefit from that.

craig wrote:

...and make-up...and hair.  at what point is the photographer making a great picture for himself, according to his vision? 

https://modelmayhem.com/pic.php?pic_id=43d109b52bf89

sorry, i couldn't figure out how to get this photo into the post.  these were from a test two years ago.  i believe they are great photos, wherein the make-up artist (mara), hair stylist (nikki), model (bianca) and wardrobe designer (nick verreos...yes, from project runway) all worked well as a team.  is there any one member of the team who can not benefit from these photographs?

I do not think that is a good shot for a makeup artist.  Do you?

craig wrote:
...and make-up...and hair.  at what point is the photographer making a great picture for himself, according to his vision? 

https://modelmayhem.com/pic.php?pic_id=43d109b52bf89

sorry, i couldn't figure out how to get this photo into the post.  these were from a test two years ago.  i believe they are great photos, wherein the make-up artist (mara), hair stylist (nikki), model (bianca) and wardrobe designer (nick verreos...yes, from project runway) all worked well as a team.  is there any one member of the team who can not benefit from these photographs?  i can assure you that nothing great would have been achieved had i worried about anyone else's books.  my responsibility to myself, the model and the other artists is to take beautiful pictures.  i know...it's subjective.

no offense to you but I wouldnt use these in my book.  Your visions wouldnt help my book at all and so my day of work would be a waste.  It's not that the photos are bad but they are not what MY CLIENTS want to see.  You unwillingness to compromise your vision for 15 minutes of my vision seems a bit egotistical.

You are assuming YOUR vision is superior to everyone elses vision.   There is no reason a photographer can not shoot his vision and then shoot for someone else.

If your vision is so superior to all other visions, so superior that you can not leave it for 10 minutes to get a face shot, then your vision should be  bringing in enough cashola to pay an artist to carry it out.


Please note smiley....I know my posts come across a bit harsh because of my writing style....not intended.  I am having this banter with a smile on my face

Mary wrote:

no offense to you but I wouldnt use these in my book.  Your visions wouldnt help my book at all and so my day of work would be a waste.  It's not that the photos are bad but they are not what MY CLIENTS want to see.  You unwillingness to compromise your vision for 15 minutes of my vision seems a bit egotistical.

You are assuming YOUR vision is superior to everyone elses vision.   There is no reason a photographer can not shoot his vision and then shoot for someone else.

If your vision is so superior to all other visions, so superior that you can not leave it for 10 minutes to get a face shot, then your vision should be  bringing in enough cashola to pay an artist to carry it out.


Please note smiley....I know my posts come across a bit harsh because of my writing style....not intended.  I am having this banter with a smile on my face

as am i.  much of this discussion is based on subjectivity, as i have stated over and over again.  the truth about that shoot, and most others i have done, is that there is a close(r)-up.  i saw it over on bravo's website in nick verreos' bio.  i'll go find the link...

http://www.bravotv.com/Project_Runway_2 … olio.shtml

but, i did not shoot that close-up for the make-up or hair stylist.  i shot it for myself.  my background is in motion picture, and traditionally you will start wide and move in for close-ups when covering a scene.  rarely, do i not get close to a model.  but, i do so for myself and no one else.

c

MHana wrote:

I do not think that is a good shot for a makeup artist.  Do you?

i do.  or, were you asking someone else?  the model looks fantastic.  that is due in part to the efforts of the make-up artist, the hair stylist, the model's genes and training, and my lighting/composition/exposure and direction.  a great photo works for everyone involved.

craig wrote:
http://modelmayhem.com/pic.php?pic_id=43d109b52bf89

is there any one member of the team who can not benefit from these photographs?

Don't you think the hair and makeup are featured better here? 



It's not difficult to think This photo will be good for my MUA while still remaining true to your vision.  The photo above shows this. 

MHana wrote:

I do not think that is a good shot for a makeup artist.  Do you?

Craig I am sorry but I have to agree with Mhana, the makeup job is great on the model but it will not be great for the makeup artist portfolio, mainly because makeup artist need to show headshots so you can really see the work they have done, as for the portfolio it will look great in and does would be yours, the models and the wardrobe stylist cause you can really see the work that they have done

Brian Diaz wrote:

Don't you think the hair and makeup are featured better here? 



It's not difficult to think This photo will be good for my MUA while still remaining true to your vision.  The photo above shows this. 

now this is a good shot for everyone, as a makeup artist I would use it in my port

craig wrote:
i do.  or, were you asking someone else?  the model looks fantastic.  that is due in part to the efforts of the make-up artist, the hair stylist, the model's genes and training, and my lighting/composition/exposure and direction.  a great photo works for everyone involved.

Agreed 100% but I won't try to explain myself further for fear that this gets argumentative. And I don't want to get argumentative because there's nobody in on this discussion that I think are either incompetent or stupid. The best points I could've made vis a vis the OP I already made.

Mary wrote:

no offense to you but I wouldnt use these in my book.  Your visions wouldnt help my book at all and so my day of work would be a waste.  It's not that the photos are bad but they are not what MY CLIENTS want to see.  You unwillingness to compromise your vision for 15 minutes of my vision seems a bit egotistical.

You are assuming YOUR vision is superior to everyone elses vision.   There is no reason a photographer can not shoot his vision and then shoot for someone else.

If your vision is so superior to all other visions, so superior that you can not leave it for 10 minutes to get a face shot, then your vision should be  bringing in enough cashola to pay an artist to carry it out.


Please note smiley....I know my posts come across a bit harsh because of my writing style....not intended.  I am having this banter with a smile on my face

Well I have to side with the stylists here.  It would be one thing if the MUA was infringing on your vision and insisting on the applying the makeup in a certain manner thereby giving you a different look than you wished. That is not the case here.  It is a trade for services.  Tit for Tat. 

I wonder what you would do if:

You were driving down the street and you seen this old house.  It is the perfect setting for this concept you had for years.  You ask the owner if you can use it for a location shoot. He says sure, if you take a couple pictures of his wife’s prized flower garden. ???

Or .. Say I am a fashion designer and you wish to use one of my outfits and some jewelry.  I love your work.  Unique and creative.  OK, but I need a shot of this new ear piece I’m coming out with.  It needs to be 1/3 of the image.  Are you incapable to applying your creative talents to and image with that criteria?

byReno wrote:

Well I have to side with the stylists here.  It would be one thing if the MUA was infringing on your vision and insisting on the applying the makeup in a certain manner thereby giving you a different look than you wished. That is not the case here.  It is a trade for services.  Tit for Tat. 

I wonder what you would do if:

You were driving down the street and you seen this old house.  It is the perfect setting for this concept you had for years.  You ask the owner if you can use it for a location shoot. He says sure, if you take a couple pictures of his wife’s prized flower garden. ???

Or .. Say I am a fashion designer and you wish to use one of my outfits and some jewelry.  I love your work.  Unique and creative.  OK, but I need a shot of this new ear piece I’m coming out with.  It needs to be 1/3 of the image.  Are you incapable to applying your creative talents to and image with that criteria?

great analogy....I was trying to come up with one and didnt have time before I had to run. 

everyone here seems fairly reasonable...I doubt that if  a good artist asked any photographer here to please get a close up of the makeup that he or she would be told "no, thats not my vision"   and I do understand a photographers desire to NOT have too many cooks in the kitchen, someone has to be responsible for  the overall quality of the shots and that should be the man or woman with the camera....I have seen many situations where a stylist or artist has tried to be the art director on a shoot (without being asked)  overstepping the boundries a bit... and thats never a good thing.

Roshar wrote:
I dont seem to understand that when you are asking a stylist to contribute thier time for a TFP that you wouldt feel like shooting a headshot just as a thank you for the time and effort they put in? 
I mean come on! No one is sacrificing their artistic merit by supplying one shot that the artist can use.

Besides, as it was earlier stated, To have a vision and yet step out of your box for a second to give something for someone else is great excersise for when you have payng clients.
Paying clients that hire you cause they like your vision yet need something specific shot.
What? You gonna turn down 3000$ cause your work is comprimised by a different angle?
Talent may get you the job but flexability is gonna keep it.

of course.  few people would survive in any business with such unwavering rigidity.  still, in this case, i simply felt like the stylists in this forum were suggesting the original poster change his shooting style to better serve themselves.  i am only suggesting he shoot for himself and develop his own voice before he gets pulled off course by what other people want.

craig wrote:
of course.  few people would survive in any business with such unwavering rigidity.  still, in this case, i simply felt like the stylists in this forum were suggesting the original poster change his shooting style to better serve themselves.  i am only suggesting he shoot for himself and develop his own voice before he gets pulled off course by what other people want.

I thought the stylists were just answering his question.
He did ask, from a stylist stand point, why they werent willing to work with him.
He wanted to know what goes on in a stylists mind. We simply told him what we (stylists) are looking for when we want to work with someone.
I think everyone got confused when others started saying " Dont compromise for no one!"
Which was a different subjct than what the OP was initally posting.

craig wrote:

of course.  few people would survive in any business with such unwavering rigidity.  still, in this case, i simply felt like the stylists in this forum were suggesting the original poster change his shooting style to better serve themselves.  i am only suggesting he shoot for himself and develop his own voice before he gets pulled off course by what other people want.

all the stylist in this forum just answered his question of why we think that he get turned down by stylists. Nobody said that he has to change his vision/style in general. He should just show an image that would be good for our work. Especially in TFP/TFCD photographers/stylists/models should work together and help each other out. If a shoot where I don't get paid doesn't help me in any way then why should I put any affort and time into it. Also my material is not cheap and I don't want to "waste" it on something that doesn't bring me anything.

Nadine Makeup Artist wrote:

all the stylist in this forum just answered his question of why we think that he get turned down by stylists. Nobody said that he has to change his vision/style in general. He should just show an image that would be good for our work. Especially in TFP/TFCD photographers/stylists/models should work together and help each other out. If a shoot where I don't get paid doesn't help me in any way then why should I put any affort and time into it. Also my material is not cheap and I don't want to "waste" it on something that doesn't bring me anything.

I agree.  And for me often I have to think not just of the team but of the designers whos clothes I am using.  If they get nothing then I get nothing to use the next time.   That is one of the reasons why fashion stylists limit the amount of free shoots that we do.

craig wrote:
the stylists were answering his question.  but, i felt they might be leading him astray.  maybe i took 'crazybenny's' post too far, but i stand behind my assertion that a photographer should shoot for himself first.  if the stylists are not interested in his work, he should find stylists who are, NOT change his style.  i strongly believe there is a 'client' or audience for every artist out there, no matter how singular or narrow their vision.

best.

c

I understand your point of view but apparently his email box is not overflowing with Testing requests and he would like that to change.  We are letting him know how to change that particular situation.....

whether or not change is good for him is not our concern, that would be his decision.   If you take a look around MM you will see a lot of people without paying clients, no tears, nobody willing to pay to see their vision.  Should they change things up a bit so that others will appreciate their work or keep shooting what they love? I guess that depends on where they want to go and what their goals are, thats not for us to decide, he didn't ask us about the direction of his career, he asked us what would make us want to work with him, and so we told him.

Mary wrote:
I understand your point of view but apparently his email box is not overflowing with Testing requests and he would like that to change.  We are letting him know how to change that particular situation.....

whether or not change is good for him is not our concern, that would be his decision.   If you take a look around MM you will see a lot of people without paying clients, no tears, nobody willing to pay to see their vision.  Should they change things up a bit so that others will appreciate their work or keep shooting what they love? I guess that depends on where they want to go and what their goals are, thats not for us to decide, he didn't ask us about the direction of his career, he asked us what would make us want to work with him, and so we told him.

you did.  and your answers are commendable.  and, i am certainly thankful that 'stylists' (still unsure why they lumped you all into one) finally have a forum and a voice.  you have touched upon the 'art vs. commerce diatribe' that i wanted to avoid.  i can only say that, as a beginner, art should be his priority.  it's too soon to start compromising your vision for paying clients which don't yet exist.  i don't know how old justin is, but according to his bio he has been shooting for a relatively short time.  it doesn't show.  the kid is good, and his pictures already show quite a bit of competence.  somewhere out there is a stylist who will test with him, with the portfolio he already has.  and, yes, it couldn't hurt for him to shoot a few for the stylists on board while he's there.  and, yes, it will help him in the future to take into account the client's wishes when he is shooting his own unwavering vision.  but, before any of that can happen, he needs to find his own unique vision and perfect it.

much love homeys.

i hope this made sense.  it's 4am here in venice.

Justin Huang wrote:
i want to say thanks to everyone for putting in their thoughts.  i've read all your responses and they all contain valid points. 

as for the stylists and makeup artists, i fully understand that in order for them to gain their fair share, i would have to dedicate part of my time to producing something worthy of their books. 

but, taking the advice of craig and marko, i think it's far wiser for me to develop my style.  i should set my priorities on the long term, not the short...meaning, i should keep my eyes on my vision, instead of trying to sign as many muas/stylists as possible. 

as for my age, i'm 17 and i'm one of the younger members on this site.  i don't like saying it in my bio because i want people to take me seriously.  i feel that my age may give people the impression that i'm not advanced with my photography.  it's true that i've only been photographing people for about 7 months. but each time i push myself to the limit, always reaching for the next step.  and i originally felt that makeup artists and sylists would help me get to that next level. but like 500$ lenses and 2000$ studios, i shouldn't rely on my equipment (in this case, stylists and MUAs) to make my pictures better.

and nice shot, craig.

thanks justin.  like mary, i think you have a bright future in photography.  if i didn't, i wouldn't have weighed in on this thread.  with that in mind, i must say that you should rely on hair/MU and wardrobe to make your pictures better.  the best certainly will.  but, first find great models and great light.  and, most importantly, find your own great style.  eventually all of these things will come together and you will create greater images.  you're already off to a terrific start.

cheers.

Justin Huang wrote:

I'll change it. But I really don't know what to say.  What kind of photographer am I? Glamour? no. Fashion? not really. Fetish? definitely not.  I only know one thing, I like crazy looking pictures and that's it.  And I know I can make those pictures.  Give me a few weeks, I'll try my best.

edit: I changed my profile, will anyone give me feedback on it?  it's still a bit rough

THIS is crazy....www.davidlachapelle.com...one of the greates crazies that ever lived..as a stylist this is what I wanna do..can't find that kind of photog here though so I'm reduced to posey posey (blah throwin up) yuck! lol