Makeup Artist
benson
Posts: 173
Los Angeles, California, US
I think people get mad because they feel that they are that exceptional Photographer or Model........It is a bit of a blow to the ego to hear that someone else whose work you admire doesn't admire your own work.......
I will do TFP/TFCD.......I leave a certain amount of space in my schedule for it.....It may be my Ego but I kind of feel that ANY project that I am involved with is going to be excellent......
A kit fee needs to ALL WAYS be paid.....False EYELASHES are expensive damn it!
I have had a few folks tell me that they want to help me expose myself......
Hello I have Magazine Cover Tear Sheets in my book.......
When I am booked full for TFP I just let folks know to try me again next month or in June or some such......
I must be paid what I am worth.....But I am open to working to improve my worth.......I will TFP when it is an investment in my career........That doesn't mean always awesome images or cash.......Sometimes it is just good PR!
Makeup Artist
BridgitC-Makeup Artist
Posts: 231
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Yeah, you missed a good one....It got out of hand at times, but it was fun... Narvell wrote:
Wow!!! I missed a whole lot of posts in one day. Dang! After reading most of the post, I went from...
"Hell Yeah"
to
"All Hell"
to
"Hell Naw"
to
"Naw She Didn't"
to
"It's All Good Now"
Next time someone call me when the stylist forums is blowing up!
Makeup Artist
K E O
Posts: 442
Houston, Texas, US
benson wrote:
I think people get mad because they feel that they are that exceptional Photographer or Model........It is a bit of a blow to the ego to hear that someone else whose work you admire doesn't admire your own work.......
I will do TFP/TFCD.......I leave a certain amount of space in my schedule for it.....It may be my Ego but I kind of feel that ANY project that I am involved with is going to be excellent......
A kit fee needs to ALL WAYS be paid.....False EYELASHES are expensive damn it!
I have had a few folks tell me that they want to help me expose myself......
Hello I have Magazine Cover Tear Sheets in my book.......
When I am booked full for TFP I just let folks know to try me again next month or in June or some such......
I must be paid what I am worth.....But I am open to working to improve my worth.......I will TFP when it is an investment in my career........That doesn't mean always awesome images or cash.......Sometimes it is just good PR! Well said, Benson! Benson rocks the kasbah.
Photographer
bj formento
Posts: 1
New York, New York, US
no more free lunches! pay the model a fee and the model can buy a print. tfp should be eliminated from the industry.
Makeup Artist
Camera Ready Studios
Posts: 7191
Dallas, Texas, US
DawnElizabeth Moderator wrote:
Then why are you all on here? Not to sound bitchy, but most everyone that is a member here is here to network, perhaps work on a mutually beneficial collaboration to either build their books, add to it or work on personal projects.
I realize that you can't pay the bills with TFP. That's why I get paid to do what I do, so I can do TFP when I have time, for the fun stuff. I'm not sticking up for it, I have limited mine due to paying work I've booked through the summer, but I don;t turn my nose up at it. I was one of the models who actually paid for her first portfolio and have paid for headshots and other needed shots because I wanted to be assured that I would actually receive my photos.
I don;t agree that the thread should be locked because there are a number of people in disagreement. well, I'm not here to network and get testing gigs...I dont test and I don't even do paid tests anymore, does that mean I'm not welcome? Can't we make room for everyone...beginner to "ready to retire" if there were no seasoned pros wouldnt it be just a bunch of wannabees on MM leading each other down the road blindly?
I like to be entertained, this place is entertaining and the industry is something I know a lot about so it's entertainment thats right up my ally.
I dont test because I put in over 40 hours a week on paid jobs and I'm exhausted. I miss my family, I won't be away from them just for a creative outlet anymore, I don't need to do free work to improve my portfolio and so spending time away from them for this kind of endeaver is selfish.... Family comes before portfolio. Anyone else get that??? if you dont you will, just wait until you have kids. Being away from them to make money is one thing, that I can understand, they have to eat and have shelter....when you cant get work because your portfolio needs improvment, again, justification for being away from them....but just because someone asks you? No.
Wardrobe Stylist
Narvell
Posts: 324
Dallas, Texas, US
Mary wrote:
well, I'm not here to network and get testing gigs...I dont test and I don't even do paid tests anymore, does that mean I'm not welcome? Can't we make room for everyone...beginner to "ready to retire" if there were no seasoned pros wouldnt it be just a bunch of wannabees on MM leading each other down the road blindly?
I like to be entertained, this place is entertaining and the industry is something I know a lot about so it's entertainment thats right up my ally.
I dont test because I put in over 40 hours a week on paid jobs and I'm exhausted. I miss my family, I won't be away from them just for a creative outlet anymore, I don't need to do free work to improve my portfolio and so spending time away from them for this kind of endeaver is selfish.... Family comes before portfolio. Anyone else get that??? if you dont you will, just wait until you have kids. Being away from them to make money is one thing, that I can understand, they have to eat and have shelter....when you cant get work because your portfolio needs improvment, again, justification for being away from them....but just because someone asks you? No. AMAN Mary!!!! Preach on my sista!!!
Ohhh... let's have some Church in here tonight!!!!
(((Narvell rock back and forth with one hand to the sky and the other hand clamping a MLK fan. Narvell begins to sings an old negro spiritual while fanning herself to cool down from the hot gospel teaching of Sista Mary.)))
Preach on my sista... preach on!!!
Makeup Artist
Camera Ready Studios
Posts: 7191
Dallas, Texas, US
Narvell wrote:
AMAN Mary!!!! Preach on my sista!!!
Ohhh... let's have some Church in here tonight!!!!
(((Narvell rock back and forth with one hand to the sky and the other hand clamping a MLK fan. Narvell begins to sings an old negro spiritual while fanning herself to cool down from the hot gospel teaching of Sista Mary.)))
Preach on my sista... preach on!!! LMAO!
Makeup Artist
BeautyByIsis
Posts: 583
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
T.Alexander wrote:
Styling costs money. SAY IT AGAIN...STYLING COST MONEY. Precisely! I use airbrush product, and trust me, it aint cheap!  lol... at the least I would accept a kit fee- unless it is a photographer who is super cool and gotten me a ton of work, I'll break down and do TPF then, no problemo, (as long as it doesn't become a habit).
Model
Burnz F
Posts: 162
San Diego, California, US
Christopher Bush wrote:
it is crazy NOT to be picky about tfp. I agree 
I have a question tho:
FOR PHOTOGRAPHERS, MODELS, and STYLISTS:
What are your requirements, or any specifics you guys are looking/asking for before agreeing to do a TFP shoot...??
just curious
Makeup Artist
BridgitC-Makeup Artist
Posts: 231
Atlanta, Georgia, US
I look for the creativity, concept, and the book worthiness of the TFP. Again everyone should benefit and take the TFP seriously as one would a paid shoot...That goes for MUA's, Models, Photographers and Stylists. Brooozz wrote:
I agree
I have a question tho:
FOR PHOTOGRAPHERS, MODELS, and STYLISTS:
What are your requirements, or any specifics you guys are looking/asking for before agreeing to do a TFP shoot...??
just curious
Photographer
tyat
Posts: 152
Miami, Florida, US
Brooozz wrote:
FOR PHOTOGRAPHERS, MODELS, and STYLISTS:
What are your requirements, or any specifics you guys are looking/asking for before agreeing to do a TFP shoot...??
just curious I skipped through the thread but wanted to answer this.
The generic answer seems to be, "if it will improve my book." But as of now, I have to say, "Eh, that depends on the mood."
Model
Amecylia
Posts: 3
Melbourne, Arkansas, US
I think if someone doesn't want to do it, they shouldn't. It's up to them. If someone has bad pictures online but doesn't want to do TFP and is only looking for paid assignments, that's their choice... whether or not they actually do get paid assignments is another matter though...
Wardrobe Stylist
CamelaC
Posts: 120
Charlotte, North Carolina, US
Narvell wrote:
AMAN Mary!!!! Preach on my sista!!!
Ohhh... let's have some Church in here tonight!!!!
(((Narvell rock back and forth with one hand to the sky and the other hand clamping a MLK fan. Narvell begins to sings an old negro spiritual while fanning herself to cool down from the hot gospel teaching of Sista Mary.)))
Preach on my sista... preach on!!! LMAO.. True. Thanks Mary!!
Wardrobe Stylist
CamelaC
Posts: 120
Charlotte, North Carolina, US
Brooozz wrote:
I agree
I have a question tho:
FOR PHOTOGRAPHERS, MODELS, and STYLISTS:
What are your requirements, or any specifics you guys are looking/asking for before agreeing to do a TFP shoot...??
just curious If the project will improve my book and/or if it's with an artist that I've been wanting to work with (awesome photographer/MUA) then I will consider it. Also if it's within reason. I will NOT pull high end designer clothing for a test shoot. I will not go out of my way to do a specific theme for a test either. No Fairy Princesses, Cartoon Characters..etc. People ask for the weirdest stuff free. LOL
Wardrobe Stylist
Narvell
Posts: 324
Dallas, Texas, US
CamelaC wrote:
If the project will improve my book and/or if it's with an artist that I've been wanting to work with (awesome photographer/MUA) then I will consider it. Also if it's within reason. I will NOT pull high end designer clothing for a test shoot. I will not go out of my way to do a specific theme for a test either. No Fairy Princesses, Cartoon Characters..etc. People ask for the weirdest stuff free. LOL I agree. When I test shoot I look at who the model is and if she can really pose well. Also who the photographer is, how fast I can get my edit images and if they are on a CD at full resolution because I will not accept prints or "web size" images.
And I WILL NOT test without a makeup artist. I can't stand that!!! If you don't have a MUA to test with or at least pay them, don't call me. I refuse to deal with a model who can do her own makeup. PLEASE!!! Heffa Please! (Yea, I'm from Texas.)
I set a budget for myself when testing. I won't tell you what it is but, it's nothing major so, don't expect Dolce and Gabbana, Versace or Oscar de la Renta. You might get Ross Dress for Less with Payless Shoes and you better be happy since I'm not getting paid.
I come to realize that most models (not all, so don't trip with this comment) don't respect your garments if they are not paying. So, I don't bring stuff that I will have to hurt someone if it gets damage but I will collect money to replace it.
Wardrobe Stylist
CamelaC
Posts: 120
Charlotte, North Carolina, US
Narvell wrote:
I agree. When I test shoot I look at who the model is and if she can really pose well. Also who the photographer is, how fast I can get my edit images and if they are on a CD at full resolution because I will not accept prints or "web size" images.
And I WILL NOT test without a makeup artist. I can't stand that!!! If you don't have a MUA to test with or at least pay them, don't call me. I refuse to deal with a model who can do her own makeup. PLEASE!!! Heffa Please! (Yea, I'm from Texas.)
I set a budget for myself when testing. I won't tell you what it is but, it's nothing major so, don't expect Dolce and Gabbana, Versace or Oscar de la Renta. You might get Ross Dress for Less with Payless Shoes and you better be happy since I'm not getting paid.
I come to realize that most models (not all, so don't trip with this comment) don't respect your garments if they are not paying. So, I don't bring stuff that I will have to hurt someone if it gets damage but I will collect money to replace it. You are CRAZY! LOL True though. I'm still waiting on one particualr cd from a photographer from a TFP! I haven't gotten it, so I just wrote it off as a learning experience, and will never work with him again.
Anyhow.. yeah, can't get Dolce on a TFP. Not worth the risk! Better be excited about Target Couture or Thrift Store/Cami's Closet finds. hehehe
But again.. I have to agree with a previous post stating that Paid Clients START out paying, not asking for TFP with a promise to pay later. That hasn't been proven to me yet! Every magazine, record lable and calendar that I've worked on.. I've been paid for. No.. I'm sorry, but we have a small budget and if you do this one... the next time... uh... no.
Wardrobe Stylist
Narvell
Posts: 324
Dallas, Texas, US
CamelaC wrote:
You are CRAZY! LOL True though. I'm still waiting on one particualr cd from a photographer from a TFP! I haven't gotten it, so I just wrote it off as a learning experience, and will never work with him again.
Anyhow.. yeah, can't get Dolce on a TFP. Not worth the risk! Better be excited about Target Couture or Thrift Store/Cami's Closet finds. hehehe
But again.. I have to agree with a previous post stating that Paid Clients START out paying, not asking for TFP with a promise to pay later. That hasn't been proven to me yet! Every magazine, record lable and calendar that I've worked on.. I've been paid for. No.. I'm sorry, but we have a small budget and if you do this one... the next time... uh... no. That is why I make photographer sign a release about giving me my images before we shoot a TFP so I can get my images. I don't care if you don't like them. Let me see them at full resolution myself. I may like an image because of details to clothing. So, give me my dang images!
As for stores: back in the day when I use to "Test" and shop for my high school buddies we use to hit the thrift stores, malls and the S&S Boutique. For those who may have just got off the Similac formula or maybe didn't have it up north, the S&S Boutique was Solo Serve clothing store. It was the best place to find major label at a good price.
Makeup Artist
Olga S.
Posts: 23
New York, New York, US
I get attitude all the time. I get approached all the time with offers to do this and that and I decline but express much appreciation for being contacted. I simply tell them that I no longer work for free and that the project they are working on will not be beneficial to me whatsoever. But that I wish them all the best with their project and many times I offer to refer them to a colleage who is willing to work for free but they have limited work to showcase... at this point they tell me how they want someone with experience and someone who they know is good and they flip out on me for declining!!!
So if any of you rude and unappreciative people are reading this now: at least offer a kit fee and stop being so one sided!!! If you think we are talented and you REALLY want us, PAY US!!!
Makeup Artist
sammysbodyart
Posts: 30
New York, New York, US
Narvell wrote:
You are CRAZY! LOL True though. I'm still waiting on one particualr cd from a photographer from a TFP! I haven't gotten it, so I just wrote it off as a learning experience, and will never work with him again.
Anyhow.. yeah, can't get Dolce on a TFP. Not worth the risk! Better be excited about Target Couture or Thrift Store/Cami's Closet finds. hehehe
But again.. I have to agree with a previous post stating that Paid Clients START out paying, not asking for TFP with a promise to pay later. That hasn't been proven to me yet! Every magazine, record lable and calendar that I've worked on.. I've been paid for. No.. I'm sorry, but we have a small budget and if you do this one... the next time... uh... no. ]
Can you send me PVT message tell me who is he? so i can avoid him in futrure? I do respect his PVT and everyone.. just want to be safe ! Smile big
Wardrobe Stylist
SoVi-Southern Vitality
Posts: 153
Houston, Texas, US
I am on MM to showcase my work, admire other artists, network, and waste time. I am not here to be asked for a million TFPs. I am a Full Time artist, and I feel like I am at a status that I should be paid for my talent.
Most of the models on here are here for that exact reason. So they assume that part of that is (once they learn what it means) to do TFP. They prob get mad b/c they've had so many people turn them down and are frustrated. Maybe it has nothing to do w/ you personally. They can't afford to pay for everyone involved and aren't getting any of the "oh I love your look you should let me shoot you sometime"'s. There are so many models that look exactly alike so why pick one over the other? Cause she has connections that will enable whatever you do with her to get seen as opposed to the new model who doesn't know anyone. I do as much TFP as beneficially (new word lol!! ) possible.
I haven't been paid for any of the work in my port yet-my first paid shoot will be this weekend hopefully! I will continue to do it as long as-like you said-it's of benefit to me. I don't care too much about the Tyra's, Iman's etc. b/c they have no problem getting jobs. It's equally as hard trying to convince photog/MUA's to do TFP on your behalf. I got a chick I didn't even know to do a shoot last week thru someone else I knew! MAC artists swear by their work and refuse to do any free work.
BUT I do have a problem w/ people who don't have pics to show me and won't agree to do TFP. I understand that once you use that makeup it's gone; but you can't provide proof that you can do what you say you can then I can't pay for that. MUA's get real offended (here anyway) when you ask for TFP. I want fashion makeup and all i see is that "natural" crap from folks here..some people can't follow directions either. I ask for one thing, show a picture, and they totally do something else. What the hell is that??!!!
Model
Tuesday Jean
Posts: 15
Ron B Blake wrote:
When the person the photographer offers the TFP to in assistance and they have a hand full of semi pro or amateur taken
phone camera pics or back alley heavily stamped with ONE photographer, No experience, no web site, no Gym membership fees,
etc. etc and a tfp isn't good enough as they think there to special and deserve paid compensation.
Most likley this is why many professionals who think a certain individual has good potential might benefit each others portfolios
only to be frustrated with " Im only doing paid assingments at this time?
humor me as you most likley will the see same people fishing for hours days and weeks in the shout box going no were fast flat
Sincerely
Ron Blake no gym membership fees???? I am aware that the slim model is going to be in much higher demand but a size 16 is the average in america. so if the reference to gym membership has to do with wieght and that is part of how you judge who you will work with than you are missing out on many many beautiful and talented models. not every body must be Barbie and Ken molded to be eyecatching.
Photographer
photoruss
Posts: 131
Hiram, Georgia, US
I didn't read all the posts, so forgive me if I repeat someone else. TFP is good for all parties involved, if they all agree that the other parties can benefit their portfolio:
A stylist benefits if the model and photographer are good.
A model benefits if the stylist and photographer are good.
A photographer benefits if the stylist and model are good.
I would say to any party: just look at the person's portfolio and you can tell if you think they have the skills to benefit you. if not, you're wasting your time.
Don't get me started on expenses. I still use film. Can get expensive, and the cost of development and scanning is not cheap. Ever priced a really good scanner? L-glass lens? Digital Camera? Flash units? Studio rentals? Cost just a hellava lot as make up, lipstick and eyelashes.
Just like some of us schlubs on this site, if you're new, and need some good photos on your port, you're gonna have to work with some folks. TFP is the way to do it. If you're good enough to get paying gigs, then don't do TFP. I do TFP work to build my skills. The only way I would make a model pay is if she would do NOTHING for my portfolio. Same goes for models and stylists.
If you're a stylist that has had no paying gigs and needs photos, guess what? You're gonna TFP or go do something else for a living. A stylist just starting out expecting everyone to pay is just like the model starting out expecting everyone to pay. A year later, they still have 6 photos in their port.
Photographer
Amanda Schlicher
Posts: 1131
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US
T.Alexander wrote:
Styling costs money. SAY IT AGAIN...STYLING COST MONEY. .........so does everything else.
Photographer
David Long
Posts: 23
Houston, Alaska, US
Not saying that it is in every case but it's often very short sighted not to accept a TFP from another photographer.
Photographer
Beatbox Jeebus v2
Posts: 10046
Palatine, Illinois, US
T.Alexander wrote:
Bridgit I hear you. Its like this, there is a point where everyone has to pay their dues, after you have reached a certian status or achieved a certain level of work it must be realized that your work has true value. Now we as artist realize our value, but clearly there are some ignorant people out there. (We all know 2 or 3 if not more)
If a model is looking through your portfolio and sees that your stuff looks like NOTHING they have ever achieved, or better yet they are 5 foot nothing with HIGH FASHION DREAMS why must they continue to hound you like they are the best thing going? I dont mean to sound cocky in the least but after I produce a certain calibre of work, why do you think I want to take a few steps backwards and do some bull? I mean really.
These people are going to have to learn that quality cost. Nothing in this world is free and if you really want to step your game up you have to pay to play. That is the bottom line.
I also think some of these people have a false sense of reality. (ie my 5 foot 0 high fashion diva) One photographer or someone in the industry has blown up their heads so they think everyone else should do the same. I'm no ones groupie.
I could go on with this one forever, but the bottom line is IF YOU "LOVE" SOMEONES WORK PLEASE RESPECT IT AND ATLEAST ASK THEIR RATES BEFORE YOU ASK IF THEY DO TFP. Hell, if they want to use you for a project or tfp, let them find you if you are so "great".
Just my .10!
Photographer
Beatbox Jeebus v2
Posts: 10046
Palatine, Illinois, US
T.Alexander wrote:
Bridgit I hear you. Its like this, there is a point where everyone has to pay their dues, after you have reached a certian status or achieved a certain level of work it must be realized that your work has true value. Now we as artist realize our value, but clearly there are some ignorant people out there. (We all know 2 or 3 if not more)
If a model is looking through your portfolio and sees that your stuff looks like NOTHING they have ever achieved, or better yet they are 5 foot nothing with HIGH FASHION DREAMS why must they continue to hound you like they are the best thing going? I dont mean to sound cocky in the least but after I produce a certain calibre of work, why do you think I want to take a few steps backwards and do some bull? I mean really.
These people are going to have to learn that quality cost. Nothing in this world is free and if you really want to step your game up you have to pay to play. That is the bottom line.
I also think some of these people have a false sense of reality. (ie my 5 foot 0 high fashion diva) One photographer or someone in the industry has blown up their heads so they think everyone else should do the same. I'm no ones groupie.
I could go on with this one forever, but the bottom line is IF YOU "LOVE" SOMEONES WORK PLEASE RESPECT IT AND ATLEAST ASK THEIR RATES BEFORE YOU ASK IF THEY DO TFP. Hell, if they want to use you for a project or tfp, let them find you if you are so "great".
Just my .10! I agree with a lot of what people are saying and you in particular... except for the 5 foot nothing with Fasion dreams.... I have worked with models who are barely 5 feet tall and because of working with the right people, look and attitude... they can make it. Im not saying they are going to do runway... but there are always exceptions to the rules.
Photographer
Ron B Blake
Posts: 497
Macomb, Illinois, US
I dont get mad I get even
newest success in better acquaintance makes for an excellent
"Thank you its been nice"
Makeup Artist
Camera Ready Studios
Posts: 7191
Dallas, Texas, US
David Long wrote:
Not saying that it is in every case but it's often very short sighted not to accept a TFP from another photographer. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
If a photographer isn't very good it would be nothing but a waste of time to shoot free with him. If the model isnt agency material again....a waste of time to shoot free (as an artist). If you cant put the shots in your book you waste your time, its pretty simple....and the best makeup in world cant make a girl with poor bone structure look like a model and it can't make the bad shots GWC took look like professional shots and putting anything but professional shots in your portfolio will lose you jobs....it may get you dates at MM but in the real working world its a career killer
Photographer
Ron B Blake
Posts: 497
Macomb, Illinois, US
Mary wrote:
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
If a photographer isn't very good it would be nothing but a waste of time to shoot free with him. If the model isnt agency material again....a waste of time to shoot free (as an artist). If you cant put the shots in your book you waste your time, its pretty simple....and the best makeup in world cant make a girl with poor bone structure look like a model and it can't make the bad shots GWC took look like professional shots and putting anything but professional shots in your portfolio will lose you jobs....it may get you dates at MM but in the real working world its a career killer Gosh Mary
I have done commercial print work with and without models
I have done printed work for bridal
I have also seen models with NO Professional photos or experience turn down a tfp offer or intentionally complicated the offer
starting with refusal to a simple phone call then run to someone else calling themselves professional having snap shots taken in wet t shirt in a moldy tiled bathtub or pressing against a wall poses topless just as 50 other new models had for the same person.
so perhaps you can tell me whos time was wasted and decision made fairly and honestly
This is why i no longer offer TFP's and next paid assignment i have booked with model , i will be dealing with an agency and specifying not to work with the models who played themselves into a robot state of mind in small world
Sincerely
Ron Blake
Makeup Artist
Camera Ready Studios
Posts: 7191
Dallas, Texas, US
Ron B Blake wrote:
Gosh Mary
I have done commercial print work with and without models
I have done printed work for bridal
I have also seen models with NO Professional photos or experience turn down a tfp offer or intentionally complicated the offer
starting with refusal to a simple phone call then run to someone else calling themselves professional having snap shots taken in wet t shirt in a moldy tiled bathtub or pressing against a wall poses topless just as 50 other new models had for the same person.
so perhaps you can tell me whos time was wasted and decision made fairly and honestly
This is why i no longer offer TFP's and next paid assignment i have booked with model , i will be dealing with an agency and specifying not to work with the models who played themselves into a robot state of mind in small world
Sincerely
Ron Blake Ron, We are saying the same thing.......it's a waste to work with people that can't improve your portfolio. I don't test either anymore, not even for pay.
Paying work as in real jobs have nothing to do with TFP....I work with anyone that has money to pay my day rate I could care less what they look like or what their skills are.
|
lol... at the least I would accept a kit fee- unless it is a photographer who is super cool and gotten me a ton of work, I'll break down and do TPF then, no problemo, (as long as it doesn't become a habit).