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European photographers vs. American photographers
It's not a hollywood vs. the world issue, it's actually pretty simple ... The average US worker logs 1777 hours of work per year or about 35.5 hours a week (two weeks off for good behavior) while the same french worker puts in just 1346 or 27 hours per week. With less time spent working, there is more time to play and enjoy life so the extra day a week a french citizen gets to relax causes less stress and stress causes weight gain and depression ... so the french work less, they're happier and they're thinner from that alone, ignoring diet. If you doubt the math, look at Korea where the average worker spends 2390 hours working or 48 hours a week vs. Holland at just 1309 hours a year (26 per week) ... which one is more artistic? Jul 07 06 09:51 am Link you darn americans ... you work too hard. Jul 07 06 09:52 am Link Chris Ross wrote: *slits wrists and dies* Jul 07 06 09:55 am Link I erased the word "better" from my vocabulary a long time ago. Now I just try to compliment all that I see some way some how. Jul 07 06 10:03 am Link FitDistMediacom wrote: ding ding ding.... Jul 07 06 10:07 am Link Hmmmm... Well, to me the continent doesn't matter. Anyone can 'grow up' with books by HCB and Brandt or Cappa and Adams etc etc... I think that it's much, much more down to the individual photographer *and* model, and their *attitude* towards life in general. I'm probably going to get shot down for this but my theory is (IMVVHO).... (With many notable exceptions, that prove the general rule).... The bigger the town, the better the work. It's the whole *attitude* thing you get from living in a big city... Ok so I live in London :-) but I'm from a very small town in North Wales and then lived for a few years in a large-ish town on Englands south coast but moving to London was the best thing I ever did. And it's not because (for the UK) this is where the work is... just living here improves your work. So my best advice to any photographer or model is always - Move to London / Paris / NY / LA You'll get better. :-) Michael x Jul 07 06 10:16 am Link hi, i am a european photographer who despises the so called MAXIM style that is so favored here, but trying to take that approach cause thats where the $$$ are. Jul 07 06 10:21 am Link hi, i am a european photographer who despises the so called MAXIM style that is so favored here, but trying to take that approach cause thats where the $$$ are. Jul 07 06 10:21 am Link hi, i am a european photographer who despises the so called MAXIM style that is so favored here, but trying to take that approach cause thats where the $$$ are. Jul 07 06 10:21 am Link i think whats hot depends on the US state that your in, cause i find my work is more appreciated in Los Angeles than in Houston, texas. Jul 07 06 10:21 am Link THE CARRASCO IMAGE wrote: 'Art' is nice... but not being homeless next week is nicer! :-/ Jul 07 06 10:26 am Link Being from Norway makes me a scandinavian .... does that count? hehe Jul 07 06 10:29 am Link THE CARRASCO IMAGE wrote: Try livin' in Alabama for a while. That will make Houston seem like Paris. Jul 07 06 10:45 am Link I think this is a generalization that is false. Both styles are on different ends of the spectrum. Im Norwegian born and have shot in both Europe and US.... it all depends on where you are at and what you are shoot. I know a lot of other Euro photographers who like American style more.... I guess that goes to show you the grass is always greener on the other side. Jul 07 06 10:58 am Link FitDistMediacom wrote: I love that thought! I learn from everyone I see. Don't know or care who's from where unless someone points it out. Jul 07 06 11:00 am Link I been to so many places and live in so many places. I do go to Europe every year. The grass isn't always greener on the other side. If you ask people (especially the younger generation) in Europe what they think about the States, they think we in US here are awesome. And here we in US, we think the European are awesome. It is only one's perception of about others either better or worse. I personally do not think that European are better photographers, it is just different. Their taste are different, their styles are different. - Mike Jul 07 06 11:08 am Link Dave Krueger wrote: And Arkansas makes Alabama seem like Milan. LOL Jul 07 06 11:11 am Link DigitalSwede wrote: Sounds like the new Mac ad where the Mac tells the PC that he does things better and the PC says "what do you mean better" ... Jul 07 06 11:16 am Link Michael Wilce wrote: spot on! Jul 07 06 11:20 am Link why can't we just all be friends .................! Jul 07 06 11:29 am Link well I'm from the UK so I suppose I'm biased.  Jul 07 06 11:54 am Link Anyutik69 wrote: Did anyone actually take the time to read this?? In case you haven't noticed, I'm poking fun at generalizations, so you can quit it with you "blah blah blah, this is a generalization, blah blah blah" No shit Sherlock. Jul 07 06 01:48 pm Link i'm an american guy with a camera from an asian background who shoots in the "style" of europeans. i dont know who's better, but i know what style i like better for my tastes. and personally i think that's all that matters at this point. cheers. Jul 07 06 02:03 pm Link Anyutik69 wrote: Open up most magazines. Jul 07 06 02:07 pm Link In thinking about this topic, I realized that my favorite most admired photographers were almost all either American or spent most of their time in America. But at the same time as a general group I think of European photographers on average being better. I think of US photographers of shooting functionally - it is the way we culturally think. One thing we do tend to produce though is a lot of out-of-the-ordinary people. This is probably caused by the mixing of cultures making us up. I think of European photographers as being more sensual in their style. With a lot of variation, but I rarely see something that is both unique and beautiful. When I see unique it tends to be more vulgar to me and when beautiful it tends to be almost a common style. It is as if when trying to do something new that have to deviate far away from the normal to be able to create it. And I my observations of Japanese photographers is mixed between an abstract simplicity and repetition. In that if I only see one photo I will think it wonderful and very unique in the style, but when I see multiples I see a lot of repetition to an individual photographer's style. I admit that I don't see a lot of African or South American work. What I do see is very good, but I suspect the statisics if you will are misleading as I think very little makes into the english language version of US media. Note this are MY observations, I have been to Japan, Korea, England, Germany, Thailand, Saudi Arabia and I joke driven through France for less then a mile. I have seen that the culture defiantely influnces the art and possible the other way around. It is art so don't get to hung up on my opinion when it comes to art. Just my observations, Jul 07 06 04:57 pm Link WE SHOULD ALL MOOVE TO FRANCE!!!! Jul 07 06 10:27 pm Link Chris Ross wrote: + over 25 days off---holidays Jul 07 06 10:31 pm Link KEVIN HILL wrote: No thanks. And I've become accustomed to our prosperity and especially having a job (ie: low unemployment). Jul 07 06 11:16 pm Link My favorite publication is French Photo. When I discovered that, whole new vistas unfurled before me. Speaking in sweeping generalizations, since that is what this thread is all about, I LOVE the European visual sensibility. To me that means that even advertisements for headphones are treated with an eye to creating an image that is significant beyond making sales. Have you ever noticed that everything in that magazine, even the thumbnails and ads, are fairly extraordinary? The emphasis in the US seems to be on creating a division between commercial photography and art photography. My goal, eventually, is to be living and working in a place where the two merge. Jul 07 06 11:52 pm Link Photographers/Artists while could be born with talents, but more often are being made and effected by their environments and surrounding culture. America, a mixture of many different cultures and tastes has to bring down their marketing intellectual level and concepts so it can be approachable and more marketable to a higher percentage of residing people in the USA. (In a non systematic way...so there is no real conspiracy theory here): During years and years, advertising companies, marketing companies etc have come up with numbers and different data and have decided the effective level for various US markets/consumers...then they have suggested certain concepts to their creative departments etc. Photography is only one of those tools of marketing and selling stuff...when art directors see day in and day out what other companies do and how they find immediate success, they try to copy each other (like any other business) and therefore promote those types of photography as well...a road towards mediocrity...for example we see all these Men's magazines copying each other and advertise certain below average aesthetics ...such as Maxim, FHM, Stuff etc....and once America finds the formula, they won't let it go until it stops making money. An young photographer might aspire to see those girls in person, take those shots and be published by them....a bigger market usually requires lower standards and a more selective market usually has higher (targeted) standards. This goes even for "pure forms of art" too. (whatever that might be). "Frida" is "in" because Madonna is buying it and collecting it....because they made a movie about her. There are great American photographers who'll die without being recognized ever, because their styles and brilliant works were not marketable in this country at the time of their existence....somebody might bring their works to "antique road show" later...and they might say..."he was a great artist and now all of his works worth $4500 (or a full tank of gas) and you have made a good profit since you bought all of his collection for $15.00 in a garage sale done by his grandchild!"! An European can work in a more selected market and deal with people who might care a bit more about advantages of taking risks in art....like anything else in life. That stops him less to create new concepts and techniques...work with new ideas. The question on "American" photographers vs. "European" photographers is wrong...if you want to compare them, as always it all goes back to "Money", therefore you need to compare the markets, and who is buying and who is selling. A big Hollywood film needs to bring back so much more money to make some profit...hence the lower level of standards in concepts, safer routes in scripts, and notching up the "WOW" factors (farting is funny+ explosions in sky are cool etc.) The same goes with the commercial photography (any kind of photography which is for sale could be considered commercial too)....clean polished images of simple concepts...fast food products of art....fast food products of art. Cheers Wolf ( Just an opinion of course and to be clear...I am an European Photographer who has lived and worked in 14 countries before finally moving to the USA few years back....I am simply a gypsy who loves the human beings in general while trying to criticize himself and them equally, so we both might take a step forward...and get happy with "little" things..) Jul 08 06 12:04 am Link Anyutik69 wrote: Even if true, so what? Jul 08 06 08:47 am Link I don't know that it's a better than kind of debate. I know that within different countries there thankfully, are still different cultures and history and legacies and influences and belief systems. Those naturally bring about different photos. A few observations....when I first started doing what I do, in general, I got far more positive feedback from people in Europe, Asia and Latin America. There didn't seem to be as much an obsession with realism that I encountered here. Secondly, even though everyone needs to pay rent, there SEEMS to be a greater number of models in Europe, interested in art photography and working with art photographers. In the US, there seems to be a tendency to categorize things according to pay. There are commercial photographers and lots of folks are in pursuit of that food chain. Then there are glamour photographers and models who know that often time that food chain pays as well. And then there are the "art photographers," who are often thought of and treated as amateurs. I remember just starting off, and even up until a few years ago, nearly having to kidnap models to get them to work with me--if you can't guarantee a tear sheet (and aren't about to lie about one!), and aren't on a commercial particularly a fashion track, or don't have oodles of money to throw about, it can be an ugly proposition trying to pursue work that's not part of a set genre. I'm not sure, but the sense I get from looking at a lot of the European portfolios is that because of geographic scale and perhaps a greater openness from models to break away from the obsession with being ANTM, that allows photographers a greater opportunity to explore themes and conceptual approaches that many US photographers (expecially the ones without financial resources) can't. Jul 09 06 07:55 pm Link ART OF ARIANE wrote: Dam, you ever been to Hollywood!!!!!! the dirtiest place in LA!!!!! The glitter and the glamour is on TV only, trust me Jul 09 06 07:59 pm Link I don't hate you. If I went around hating people who don't understand statistics, I'd never get anything else done. I do disagree with your assertion, however, as it is based on faulty data. M Jul 09 06 09:04 pm Link I don't hate you. If I went around hating people who don't understand statistics, I'd never get anything else done. I do disagree with your assertion, however, as it is based on faulty data. M Jul 09 06 09:06 pm Link Anyutik69 wrote: You did not say please, but I'll let you slide on that, at least. Anyutik69 wrote: Being published is not an intention shared by all photographers on this site. Nor is it one shared by all photographers in any country. Anyutik69 wrote: If I'm to take you correctly, you're fooling yourself. There is not a widespread difference in depth between photographers of different countries... this difference is between photographers of different skill and talent levels. Being in Europe won't make you any more talented than you would be growing up anywhere else. Anyutik69 wrote: Yes, there's a difference between the concept of individual expression and the concept of generic standard. They are opposites by default. But to imply that shooters in the states generally follow a generic standard and that European shooters are generally individually expressive is just absurd. The mere fact that there is a commonly recognized "European style" would imply a bit of generic standard. That you feel the generic standard of European imagery is so individual and expressive is only because you're so smitten with it. Anyutik69 wrote: Again, these are opposites by definition and certainly not concepts that typify location. Anyutik69 wrote: A romanticised opinion. Nothing more. You can in no way verify it, though you are certainly free to think it. Anyutik69 wrote: This I don't get. Are you saying that schooling there is better than here? You can certainly make that argument, but you're not going to convince me that the gap is caused by a comparatively shorter history. Or pride in it for that matter. They are completely unrelated in my opinion. The level of art programs here in the states don't run astray because of American History's length or pride in it. And that goes for ANY of our education programs. And last time I checked, art programs in the states held no bias toward American artists. Anyutik69 wrote: Wait... stop for just a moment. Do you know anything of the sales of video games overseas or statistics on the age demographic buying and playing them worldwide? Europeans sales are not as high as in the states but they are certainly high. And you're kidding yourself if you think the most common age of the US video gamer is not 18 to 30ish. Jul 10 06 12:08 am Link Anyutik69 wrote: The problem with this particular question, is that it's part of the problem we have in the US. Jul 10 06 12:10 am Link I don't think it's possible to quantify "better". Photography is entirely subjective and that is both it's biggest problem and it's biggest appeal. I don't see a noticeable difference in the photography of European and American photographers, but I do see a marked difference in their audiences. There is a noticably *different* mainstream style between the US and Europe, dictated by the needs of the client, who is in turn restricted by the desires of their audience. The attitudes of the US and EU audiences are of course, very different and maybe it's simply that as creative people, we tend to like things that are different from our normal experiences. For my commercial work, my goal is simply to satisfy the client, and they frequently force me in a direction that I hate, but he who pays the piper...  In my personal work, if the finished shot looks something like the one I had in my head before I took it, it's a good one. That is my only judgement of quality, and the only one that matters. Unfortunately, that's never happened I strongly suspect that if I ever took that "perfect" photograph, making pictures would lose much of it's appeal. I keep doing it because I'm always trying to attain the unattainable.Jul 10 06 07:40 am Link Thank you very much!! I say with my finest European Pride! Ok so I know none of the comments were aimed at my work but I'll toss in my thoughts on the matter. European magazines are better than US magazines because Europeans hold a much higher standard and won't tollerate let alone buy trash. I speak with a little authority being that I am European and now reside in the US so I have seen both sides of it. In the US there is generally more disposable income compared to europe and european equipment prices tend to be higher as well. My theroy is they photographic hobyist in Europe feels as if they have so much more invested as they dont have so much spare cash and therefore truly pratice and refine their art, they attend seminars, study at school, join camera clubs, anything that can help them further their work. In the US aquiring a half decent DSLR and a couple of leses is cheap (speaking comparitivley) once again. So it tends to create far more part time 'photographers' that dont put all their spare time into the study of the art. They take a few snaps on a Saturday, tweak them in Elements on sunday, then toss them up for critique with 'What do you think?" I think if you took these shots to a UK camera club youd go home with a bruised ego! There are seriously tallented photographers on both sides of the pond, both pros and amatuers alike. But I still think the difference comes down to when a European takes up a hobby it consumes every spare moment and they put more effort into it than here in the US. Please note my comments are from personal observations and not an attack on anyones work. Jul 10 06 08:14 am Link ART OF ARIANE wrote: How about Cannes, and Monte Carlo? As someone who has attended plentiful of events there, trust me when I say it's glamourous! It'll do for me... Jul 12 06 10:27 pm Link |
