|
Forums >
General Industry >
European photographers vs. American photographers
well i know who im putting my money on, when its "go time"... Jul 04 06 07:13 am Link Chris Ross wrote: An excellent observation. It even extends to our cars and motorbikes.. Jul 04 06 07:27 am Link Culture is Key. Europeean Models are also far better than than Most American models. Photographers also !! Been there {both places} and done that {both places}. EL Jul 04 06 07:35 am Link I don't know what you are talking about. I've seen so much great work from American photographers. I don't see a reason to say, Europeans are better in this. Jul 04 06 07:58 am Link in all honesty, i havent seen any photogs from europe that blow me away..but there are several here that do.... Jul 04 06 08:01 am Link Seville Media wrote: Since I was born over there, raised, educated and worked in Europe my first 26/27 years (I commuted between NYC and Frankfurt for 1.5 years every two or three weeks, so it's overlapping), I totally agree with your own observation. Jul 04 06 08:10 am Link and all this time I thought art was a subjective thing.......... Better is a matter of opinion! I try not to associate an artist with anything other than their work. Their nationality isn't one of my concerns, nor is their politics, religion, social standing or race. Sometimes I may not agree with the artists' views or subject matter, but that doesn't stop their work from being fantastic. Besides that, generalizations are generally a bad thing, plus 92.76 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot. But I have heard that 78.54 percent of all great photographers are from a small town just east Portland, Maine. FWIW Jul 04 06 08:39 am Link I have always admired euro photogs work...... far more than american photogs work..... there is more passion in it.... more emotion....more DRAMA!!!!! cooler lighting styles......... MARCO GLAVIANO was my hero when i was teaching myself photography...... he is still one of my favs..... MARCO is DA MAN! Jul 04 06 08:44 am Link I agree with this thread... I was born and raised over there, LOL :-) On the other hand, I think it is more the eye, imagination and experience of the photographer, multi-cultural influences, being open to view subjects in a different light... creating something different, having visions, creating timeless work that still looks good in 10 or 20 years. I think the reason for this thread was, that someone looked at something that appeared a little different. When I was living in Europe, I was quite often impressed with the work of US photographers, I guess just because a lot of their work looked different from what one would see over there. Today, it's all one planet. Jul 04 06 09:03 am Link Well, here's my cent and a half having not read the last 40-something posts... What you've stated is simply a generalization. There are incredibly talented US photographers just like there are incredibly talented European photographers. This site probably has more photographers possessed of considerable talent in NYC alone than talented ones in all of Europe who have profiles here... simply because of numbers. Also, we're talking about tastes which, we all know, implies a bias. If you're into glamour style, there are tons of excellent shooters here in the US and nobody could convince you that Europeans are better. At the same time, if you gravitate toward that European style, of course you're going to think that Europeans are better. Further, what you have here at MM is simply an abundance of mind-numbingly crappy photographers in the US. Sure, we're on the world wide web, but there are simply more US photographers here than anywhere else. And you'll certainly find your share of people who should find another creative outlet. I've seen some European photographers here who I thought were just as bad as the worst here in the States. For every outstanding European photographer you can name on MM, you could probably name 2 or 3 outstanding US photographers mainly because there are so many US photographers here. By the same token, for every shitty European shooter, there are several American shooters who are just as bad... Jul 04 06 09:22 am Link SimonL wrote: So does Harley Davidson just so ya know.... Jul 04 06 11:37 am Link "All generalizations are false."  Fist off, I enjoyed reading all the replies on this. The whole ratio of good European photographers on here to American photographers on here..... understandable. Where are these American photographers getting published? Here or Europe?? Not better, but different? There is a difference in depth. There is a difference in individual expression vs. generic standard. There is a difference between natural and fake. There is a difference in appreciation. Schooling? Perhaps this is due to the undeniable pride in the nonexistant history of this country. They accent too much on it, leaving the history of the rest of the world barely touched. When you touch the subject of art being subjective.... You have to think about culture. There are cultures out there in which children are raised playing the piano (or some other instrument), reading poetry and novels, visiting museums.... being taught to appreciate the arts (visual, performing, liberal). Do they have a greater say on the subject? Or are their words equivalent to those that have been raised illiterate, never having the opportunities to do more than hope to have enough food to live? (If speaking in statistics, these make up most of the population.) How about the children that grow up doing nothing but playing video games? Rebutal, anyone? Jul 07 06 03:38 am Link The European style of shooting is what inspired me to become a photographer (namely Stephane Coutelle). To be frankly honest, I don't think our country truly appreciates art. Judging from the 5 or 6 cops that show up whenever I shoot in public, their actions truly communicate to me that they wish this whole country consisted only of concrete, glass, steel, THEM, prisons, and advertisments. Appreciation for the arts really starts with our children. We as a country don't encourage that enough in school. I can also say that our society as a whole has a lot of hurdles to overcome when it comes to our sexuality, and what we consider art versus pornography. Jul 07 06 04:07 am Link Anyutik69 wrote: Agree with you - lol - I'm european, how can I disagree Jul 07 06 04:12 am Link well, when you say "Europe", you are talking about variety of cultures, differences, lifestyle, places... Europe has several centers for photography when I America is dealing with all in one culture. I am Europian and living in America almost for a decade now. I love the world because one address is never enough for creativity. As you travel and see more, you can add more to your creations. On the other hand, as KM said, its lack of having so many internet models, photographers (mostly beginners) on these websites (for US). There are so many creative people in this country too but do not compare yourself to whole Europe, compare individually with Europian countries. Max V. Jul 07 06 04:34 am Link Markus Richter wrote: Yeah...I totally agree: WTF are you thinking guys??? Your work is great! No need to feel like Europeans are any better, seriously! Jul 07 06 04:49 am Link I am not sure about other fields but In terms of high fashion editorial and beauty images Paris has the highest number of top photographers shooting for the best magazines in the world bar none. It has been my observation that the competition here in terms of fashion photography is more fierce than even NYC. When models want to build a strong book quickly and cheaply they get sent to Europe. (Specifically, Paris/Milan) -Krischelle Jul 07 06 04:52 am Link Krischelle wrote: Strongly disagree! The photogs here on MM that I would like to work with would do TFP with me. If I asked someone in Germany with an equally strong portfolio, I wouldnt even get an answer because they are already "celebrity material". Just my personal experience. Jul 07 06 04:56 am Link Maja wrote: Many good photographers shoot with models on a case by case basis. The timing/relationship/agency/look of the model are a few factors that make a difference in getting a yes or a no. As I understand it Germany is not the best market for models in "development" anyway. Mostly commercial/cataloge work there so lot of the working models who shoot with the top photographers/get the best jobs already have a strong book so they are direct bookings anyway. Jul 07 06 05:16 am Link Maja wrote: Ahhwww - come on... I am celebrity material... Jul 07 06 05:26 am Link then again what is better!!??? should i say it better!!!! better at what...... portrait, landscape.....!!?? glamour!!?? what exactly... i mean i am confused..... i mean there is only one photographer that made me wanna pay $$$$$$ to to spend 3 days with him.... and he is american"" Matthew Jordan Smith"" now u csan see many style out there even on MM there are some fotog that are way pass me trhey good at what they do!!!!... i could just seat and watch them do what they do best..... so what makes euro fotog better american fotog Euro education is different from us education in all aspect i benefited from both with a french based aducation i appreciated being in college in america i mean its the dream for most french that can afford it.. among all my friend i am the onlyone who did not go to university in france... the way we study art and other stuff is different... but does that make us better ?? i think not.... its like comparing The NBA and The Euroleague so what make a euro photographer better than a US one!!!??? Jul 07 06 05:52 am Link I think everyone as a creative source has a little something to offer. ...But I do have to agree that that the models/photographers of europe do seem to have a lot more integrity & a much richer muse to their work than those of the U.S. Of course that's not to say that there are no good U.S ones... becuase there are indeed some who kick the ass of anyone! & Then again...I'm not saying we don't have bad stuff. (Blonde glamour girls on motor bikes anyone?) But as a general rule I do have to agree that Europe does it better :p xDDx Jul 07 06 06:18 am Link I've worked with both Americans and Europeans...and found both to be equally good. It's all about choosing to work with people who are creative, intelligent and skilled be it in America or in Europe. There are good and bad on both sides of the ocean. Jul 07 06 06:42 am Link I see that "Better" is still being treated as an objective standard when in this context it is probably the most subjective term we could use. The issue of varying genre has been brought up as well as the influence of culture and education as it applies to each individuals interpretation of quality of work. Herein lies the problem for me, I am resigned to the fact that there will probably be more people who think my work is crap than creative and it is not my primary source of income. I on the other hand am not particularly fond of Terry Richardson's work, however he seems to make a fairly good living at it and is judged by people who have the supposed subjective taste, influence, and pocketbooks to provide that living. Ergo his work is better, in fact since he is making a better living at it (or at least is more visible) than almost everyone here on MM, his work must be "better" than everyone's here at MM. This is my problem with using "better" in an attempted objective fashion. There is an interesting article in the July PDN talking to fashion editors and creative directors about who they think the hot photographers are right now, worth a read in the context of defining what a portion of the market considers "good" right now, emphasis on the right now since we know how rock solid trends for everything in the fashion market are. I will continue to be inspired by all the wonderful artists that I find here and on many other sources regardless of what side of the pond they are from. To the multitude of photographers that in my personal opinion have better work than me....please keep it up, you are an inspiration! Regards, Carl Jul 07 06 07:18 am Link I agree with those who said that the photography reflects the culture.. European women seem to be more comfy with themselves, so that translates into their ability to lose themselves in the work.. A photographer can capture no more than his subject provides for him.. All the photoshop in the world doesnt change that.. So are they anymore TECHNICALLY proficient than american photogs.. NO.. but creativity has nothing to do with technical proficiency and a great pic is a sharing experience between photographer and subject.. So give me women with a european ATTITUDES and I will put American technical skills up against anyone in the world.. Jul 07 06 07:42 am Link Photographers who spend time creating photographs are better than photographers who spend time dreaming about how much better they could be if they were somewhere else. Jul 07 06 07:50 am Link I`m an open minded person and I have worked with a lot of European photographer, but I have never in my carrer gotten better pictures then I did in NY. At least the photographer here in Norway are not that good, Sweden has some grate once, but I would put my money on the US once..but that`s only one country girls opinion!  Jul 07 06 07:56 am Link European models are WAY more beautiful than American models. No fake boobs fake lips padded bras ten tons of make up No posing like some bimbo on a street corner So with more naturaly beautiful models ( Euro) I would have to say EURO PHOTOGRAPHERS ROCK Jul 07 06 07:56 am Link Brian Hillburn wrote: Don't know the numbers...but two others I enjoy and seem to be sassy "chaps"...are Photofashion in Milan and Kenneth GG Niven in London. Can't forget Gavin O'Neil who I believe is hangin in Paris right now. Jul 07 06 08:11 am Link One has to wonder what level of experience you personally have with the photographers from the two geographic areas you listed. Are you influenced by hands on experience as a model in both areas or simply viewing pictures from MM sites or other media. Are you limiting your statement to our current place in time or are you encompassing the medium from the time of Talbot to today. Are you speaking primarily to the fashion crowd or photography in general. A few of my own observations; I find the work of average European photographers to be very sterile in all areas of the medium. Clinically correct but lacking in texture, atmosphere and humanity. Several of the art buyers at ad agencies I work with have said repeatedly they would rather use European photographers for ad work because of their uncluttered no-nonsense in your face style. It simply reads quicker when passing an OOH display at 60 MPH or perusing a rag at 1.3 seconds per page. This is about as close as you can get to professional point and shoot. Europeans have greater social freedoms than we do and this is reflected in their work, but it also has an effect on their work. I find the effect displeasing. You made a very broad based statement and I'm looking at the talent pool in a very broad way. There are exceptions to everything, and I believe the exceptions in this instance are the great photographers on both continents, and they nullify any credibility your statement contained. In other words, it was a silly statement. Jul 07 06 09:12 am Link NYC Photog wrote: *winds neck in..* Jul 07 06 09:19 am Link POINT ME TO SOME OF THESE EUROPEAN PHOTOGRAPHS. I'D LOVE TO LEaRN FROM THEM. MY PORTFOLIO DIRECTION IS in that direction. Jul 07 06 09:28 am Link Anyutik69 wrote: Idiots who make sweeping generalizations are idiots. Jul 07 06 09:34 am Link Marcus J. Ranum wrote: As are people who dismiss other peoples opinions.. Jul 07 06 09:36 am Link I am still very new to the world of photography, but I am super picky about my goal of where I want to be. I don't know if I will ever reach it or not, but I LOVE european photogs. The work is so what I am after. I get really tired of the run of the mill big boobs/happy blond smile/lingerie look no ofense to ANYONE. Some work very hard I am sure. Granted my work is NOTHING to write home about either, but thats what I want to produce down the road...even if it's just for me.. Jul 07 06 09:41 am Link modaphoto wrote: What a bunch of BS. I'm surprised you didn't blame Hollywood for global warming. You're like people who zero in on chocolate as the cause for obesity. I've spent years in Europe and your idea about having had to spend time there to understand what you're talking about is crap. Your comments are refutable with simple common sense by someone with a high school education who has never left their home town. Jul 07 06 09:43 am Link It's a little painful to hear such overarching generalisations in this thread. There are indeed many spectacular European photographers, but there are likewise Americans of equal power. Take for instance Richard Avedon, argueably the most seminal Fashion photographer of all time. Words fail to describe the power of his work. Of roughly equal caliber on the other side of the pond we have Nick Knight, who gives new meaning to the word creativity. They are different indeed, in this case I might go as far as to say that Avedon was able to convey more subtlety with his images than knight, but they are both so far ahead of most any of their competitors that we are dealing in very small degrees here. What matters about both of them is not their country of origin, but rather the strength of their vision and their execution of it. This talk of one region being inherently superior artistically is divisive and does nothing to further discourse on art or to encourage individual artists. I do think that a large factor in America is what the editorial and commercial markets will tolerate. We are very different cultures and America seems to be comparitively uncomfortable with sex. Sex happens to be a huge theme in art and one worth addressing, but much of the American market is really interested in a pubescent representation of sexuality as seen in Maxim, FHM, Stuff, Playboy, etc... I think that this is a reflection of American culture's attitude towards sexuality and youth. Europe seems to embrace a more adult (not explicit, I mean "grown up") representation of sexuality. This may come off as more sophisticated and subtle to many viewers, but it is not inherently so; just different. I personally dont care for the pubescent representation of sexuality and strive to defy it with my work, but time will tell wether the American market will support my work or whether it will demand that my skills be applied to publications overseas, where my representation of sexuality might be more saleable. Jul 07 06 09:47 am Link modaphoto wrote: OK, way to generalize but way wrong. I'm American and let's see...no fake boobs, no fake lips, no padded bra, no posing like a bimbo on a street corner..as far as makeup goes it's whatever is shot appropriate sometimes 10 tons sometimes not. Jul 07 06 09:47 am Link Ow and South american Photographers ??? Photographers from the 3rd World are good too : ) Look... it's all the same great talents here and there and bad professionals everywhere. The only thing I see in europe has more freedom on the media, Editors like to try new things, and americans editors are going more on the safe side. Jul 07 06 09:47 am Link SimonL wrote: Marcus J. Ranum wrote: As are people who dismiss other peoples opinions.. I would have no trouble dismissing the generalization that blue is a better color than green. That doesn't make me an idiot. This thread is basically the same thing. Jul 07 06 09:49 am Link |
