Wynd Mulysa wrote:
Yikes.  A photographer contacted me via an ad I placed on Craigslist [but is also on MM and OMP] in which I was looking for paid work.  He told me that he usually gets paid for shoots, but he thought he might want to pay me.  He asked me what my rates are and asked me separately if I would be interested in edited images as part of my compensation.

I realise that he was asking that because he was wanting to make a deal to pay me less than my rate and give me some photos.  I have always gotten photos back from paid shoots, but right now I'm in a lot of debt and have decided that if a photographer doesn't want to give me any photos, that's okay with me.  But, this guy asked.  So this was my reply:

"...To answer your second question, of course I would be interested in edited images, but when I get images from a paid shoot, it is in addition to my usual rate.  Sometimes the photographer gives me images and sometimes he/she does not [note: that was a lie, because I have always gotten photos.  I know that photographers don't always do that, though, and I didn't want this guy to think I was full of myself].. As a paid model, it is a bonus to get images from a shoot for me. I model mostly to just-get-by financially, so that's why I only accept paying gigs.  But, if you are asking because youthink my rate may be too high then maybe we can work something out. "

I feel like that was a good reply.  I explained exactly what I do.  I told him I would love some images.  I mentioned that, if that was why he was asking, we could work something out.  His reply was:

"About the edited photos, what you're saying is that you'd be happy to accept them for nothing. In other words, they have no value. That won't lead to a photo shoot with me."

It really bothers me when I put a lot of thought into what I write and make sure to answer a person's question very thoroughly and effectively, and they don't really read it the way they're supposed to.  Of course I'd be happy to accept images for nothing!  Who wouldn't?!  But I wasn't expecting that or asking for that!  Geez.

The end.

My suggestion is to reply back to him and restate what you were saying.

To be honest I had to read it twice to see you were not trying to come of as as snob. I think the problem line was "To answer your second question, of course I would be interested in edited images, but when I get images from a paid shoot, it is in addition to my usual rate." The way I read that the first time it came off as you were trying to inflate yourself. So if he read that line like I did what you wrote after that was ignored.

Just a little miscommunication, no big deal and I think the shoot can be salvaged.

James Jackson wrote:
Subject: Modeling Gig: Makeup/hair test

Hi XXX,

I got your email address from XXX after seeing you in his portfolio.  I have a shoot upcoming that I would like to find out if you're interested in being a part of.

The shoot will be a makeup/hair test shoot involving unique fashion hair and makeup designs which will be shot in close-up cropped images to echo scenes that we are shooting this coming week.  I'm planning the studio portion involving models for the second half of July, and would really like it if you would be willing to participate.

If you are interested please feel free to reply to this email or give me a call at 609 504 6762 and i'll be happy to discuss the project further with you.

Thank you,
James Jackson

Model wrote:
Sorry James, I dont do TFP work any longer. Good luck with your shoot

That was *IT* that was her whole reply!

(notice that I didn't mention TFP at all in my original message...but hey, why argue...)

James Jackson wrote:
Ok,

Well I do have another series that I am working on called the Geometry project.  You can see two of the images from the series thus far at http://www.raveneyes.com/geometry/

What are your rates?

-James

No response for the past five days to that last one...

James Jackson wrote:
It's a tough business...

We photographers get ignored, lied to, trashed for having opinions, we're never trusted, and every one of us is considered a pervy rapist in training.

Models get misunderstood, complained about, shafted for pay and pictures, yelled at, and poked and prodded.

every once in a while someone is going to over react...

I know.  Sometimes I over react, but only in the forums.  When I'm talking to someone about scheduling a shoot, I am very careful not to say anything that would change their mind about doing it.  If I take something the person said the wrong way, I think about it for a while before replying and usually I end up understanding that they meant it differently.  Or I just ask "what did you mean by... "
Granted, he is offering to pay me, but I would assume that since he is offering to pay me, he actually wants to work with me.  It surprises me how he would just terminate the idea like that.

WG Rowland wrote:
There is no communication that can not be infinitely misread..

Our ability to forget that helps forge the idea that there is common ground..

What are your rates, anyway?

What you said is very true.  I'm just a little upset right now, but I'll get over it.  What could make me feel better than discussing it with strangers on an internet bulletin board?
Most of the work I do is for $50 an hour.

Mike Cummings wrote:

My suggestion is to reply back to him and restate what you were saying.

To be honest I had to read it twice to see you were not trying to come of as as snob. I think the problem line was "To answer your second question, of course I would be interested in edited images, but when I get images from a paid shoot, it is in addition to my usual rate." The way I read that the first time it came off as you were trying to inflate yourself. So if he read that line like I did what you wrote after that was ignored.

Just a little miscommunication, no big deal and I think the shoot can be salvaged.

I did.  Thanks.  .

Jean-Philippe Martin wrote:
Wynd,

In general when it is a paid shoot, the model is the one asking for pictures and the photographer saying yes or no... not the contrary where the photographer tries to have you "buy" stuff from him.

Move on to the next photographer. Don't worry, you guys did not agree on the deal that's it.

Jean-Philippe

Thanks for the advice.  However, we did not disagree on anything.  I told him that we could work something out if he wanted to pay me less and include some photos!

James Jackson wrote:
P.S. it happens from the other side as well... Classic model/photographer exchange leading to unprofessionally ignored email:

James Jackson wrote:
Subject: Modeling Gig: Makeup/hair test

Hi XXX,

I got your email address from XXX after seeing you in his portfolio.  I have a shoot upcoming that I would like to find out if you're interested in being a part of.

The shoot will be a makeup/hair test shoot involving unique fashion hair and makeup designs which will be shot in close-up cropped images to echo scenes that we are shooting this coming week.  I'm planning the studio portion involving models for the second half of July, and would really like it if you would be willing to participate.

If you are interested please feel free to reply to this email or give me a call at 609 504 6762 and i'll be happy to discuss the project further with you.

Thank you,
James Jackson

Model wrote:
Sorry James, I dont do TFP work any longer. Good luck with your shoot

That was *IT* that was her whole reply!

(notice that I didn't mention TFP at all in my original message...but hey, why argue...)


No response for the past five days to that last one...

That's very interesting.  I guess it happens very often.  So, what's worse, someone responding without really reading your message or someone not responding at all?  Anyway.. I would say it's her loss, of course. 

Doug Mackay    DMP wrote:
it gets a little that way sometimes, i know i flew a model up to me, paid her hotel, her airfare, food and phone , and for the shoot, supplied a cd before she left of all images including 10 edited,got her a tearsheet, and when she arrived home first thing complained that i had not given her enough edited images. edited images never even got mentioned at any stage, and yes i got pissed as well, fab model but i do not even open her email now.

Wow!  I find myself at a loss of words trying to express how ridiculous she acted.  I'm glad you had a good time working together and the complaining was only after she got home.

Iona Lynn wrote:
*hands wynd a vegan cookie and a hug*
Don't worry about it at all.
Move on to the next shoot,

creative people can be a little touched in the head or in my case kicked hard.
miscomunications happen at times.

Thanks!
I know, you're right.  It just hadn't really happened to me before and something that's always upset me is when people assume things.. I guess I need to get used to it.

Iona Lynn wrote:
*hands wynd a vegan cookie and a hug*
Don't worry about it at all.
Move on to the next shoot,

creative people can be a little touched in the head or in my case kicked hard.
miscomunications happen at times.

A VEGAN COOKIE.. *smh*  I may have to rethink that invite to my kitchen.. LMAO

James Jackson wrote:
The shoot will be a makeup/hair test shoot...

James, that's where she stopped reading. As soon as the words "test shoot" crossed her eyes, she shot you the response - I'd lay money on it.

Doug Mackay    DMP wrote:
it gets a little that way sometimes, i know i flew a model up to me, paid her hotel, her airfare, food and phone , and for the shoot, supplied a cd before she left of all images including 10 edited, got her a tearsheet, and when she arrived home first thing complained that i had not given her enough edited images, so i emailed another twenty edited images,  not enough apparently , her response to this was to have some one else edit my images, edited images  never even got mentioned at any stage, and yes i got pissed as well, fab model but i do not even open her email now.  accurate written communication is the only way past misunderstandings , very carefully written of course.

My guess is that after doing everything, but carry her from her home to your studio on your back, she thought she could just slap you around whenever (and for whatever purpose) pleased her at the moment....

John

Wynd Mulysa wrote:
Yikes.  A photographer contacted me via an ad I placed on Craigslist [but is also on MM and OMP] in which I was looking for paid work.  He told me that he usually gets paid for shoots, but he thought he might want to pay me.  He asked me what my rates are and asked me separately if I would be interested in edited images as part of my compensation.

I realise that he was asking that because he was wanting to make a deal to pay me less than my rate and give me some photos.  I have always gotten photos back from paid shoots, but right now I'm in a lot of debt and have decided that if a photographer doesn't want to give me any photos, that's okay with me.  But, this guy asked.  So this was my reply:

"...To answer your second question, of course I would be interested in edited images, but when I get images from a paid shoot, it is in addition to my usual rate.  Sometimes the photographer gives me images and sometimes he/she does not [note: that was a lie, because I have always gotten photos.  I know that photographers don't always do that, though, and I didn't want this guy to think I was full of myself].. As a paid model, it is a bonus to get images from a shoot for me. I model mostly to just-get-by financially, so that's why I only accept paying gigs.  But, if you are asking because youthink my rate may be too high then maybe we can work something out. "

I feel like that was a good reply.  I explained exactly what I do.  I told him I would love some images.  I mentioned that, if that was why he was asking, we could work something out.  His reply was:

"About the edited photos, what you're saying is that you'd be happy to accept them for nothing. In other words, they have no value. That won't lead to a photo shoot with me."

It really bothers me when I put a lot of thought into what I write and make sure to answer a person's question very thoroughly and effectively, and they don't really read it the way they're supposed to.  Of course I'd be happy to accept images for nothing!  Who wouldn't?!  But I wasn't expecting that or asking for that!  Geez.

The end.

I think you are overreacting.

Look for ways to make money-not have problems making money.

Remember-the customer is always right.

Keep the attitude out, and the accomodation in...if you want the revenue.

studio L wrote:
I think you are overreacting.

Look for ways to make money-not have problems making money.

Remember-the customer is always right.

Keep the attitude out, and the accomodation in...if you want the revenue.

I don't really understand your comments, as it's clear to myself and all but one person, other than you I suppose, who has replied to this thread, that I had no "attitude" while dealing with this person, and I was trying to accomodate him.  See: "we can work something out."
..I was waiting for his reply to that, which ideally and reasonably would have been him making an offer that I more than likely would have accepted.

[edit] Also.. he didn't give me links to his portfolio here or anywhere else until AFTER the e-mails mentioned had been exchanged.  He could have been lying for all I knew.  And when he declined my offer, he sent me examples of his work.  It was too late to be even more kind, reasonable and professional once I saw how great his work is.

Scott Evans wrote:
I pay a model I do not give images.  A model pays me I give images.  I always hold the copyright.

There is nothing wrong with that.  I don't expect images from everyone who pays me.

Scott Evans wrote:
I pay a model I do not give images.  A model pays me I give images.  I always hold the copyright.

Well, that's you, and as someone who has done this gig from several different sides I must say there are as many varied responses to whether or not a model gets copies of the pics as there are models and photographers.... Heck, the answer sometimes changes model to model with some photographers!

Wynd Mulysa wrote:
So, what's worse, someone responding without really reading your message or someone not responding at all?

Well, since this was both I couldn't honestly tell you which part cheesed me off worse.  I try to keep it a little professional and not lay it all out directly to the model in question in a scathing fiery retort comparing her to some part of a pig's anatomy, but every once in a while it feels good to vent.

I suppose the no response at all is a bit worse though.  If someone asks me does a girl who responds model I'd have to say yes. If my email about a same gig goes completely ignored then my only guess is that those models don't actually model at all.

Wynd Mulysa wrote:
Anyway.. I would say it's her loss, of course.

Mind if I take that as a compliment?

Wynd Mulysa wrote:

I don't really understand your comments, as it's clear to myself and all but one person, other than you I suppose, who has replied to this thread, that I had no "attitude" while dealing with this person, and I was trying to accomodate him.  See: "we can work something out."
..I was waiting for his reply to that, which ideally and reasonably would have been him making an offer that I more than likely would have accepted.

[edit] Also.. he didn't give me links to his portfolio here or anywhere else until AFTER the e-mails mentioned had been exchanged.  He could have been lying for all I knew.  And when he declined my offer, he sent me examples of his work.  It was too late to be even more kind, reasonable and professional once I saw how great his work is.

Wynd...your attitude (which is not the subject of my response btw) is in your thread title:

"Photographers and quick tempers."

"Quick temper"? um.....where?

All I read was his displeasure with your correspondence. Pretty simple that.

Your labeling of him illustrates the "attitude" to which I partly refer.

He didn't like your approach, and he exited. You clearly have a problem with that.

That is attitude.

Your thread title speaks a volume (to me anyway), and you have decided to place it in a public forum...the context on the photographer is clearly negative.

That is attitude.

And listen, it does not matter if I am the only one saying so (an interesting response attitude of your choosing in itself)...you didn't ask for opinions consistent with the norm here....you asked for discourse on the subject. You have mine accordingly. Ignore it if you like-and all the power to you! But taking the tack of 'it is clear to everyone except studio L" (loose paraphrasing=mine)...is exemplary of the very attitude of which I speak.

Read Dale Carnegie on the subject of customer's (him) and vendors (you).

You might be amazed at what you learn, and it is the basis for my original comments to you, which you state you do not understand.

As you know, I think you are quite worth hiring-and I am trying to help you here, not bust your chops. I wish you only success.

But good advice isn't always common, fun to hear, or cheap.

Read Carnegie-he wrote the book on what besets you in this situation.

You'll see.

Peace.

Wynd Mulysa wrote:

There is nothing wrong with that.  I don't expect images from everyone who pays me.

Scott Evans states my ethic cleanly and simply.

I don't think you should be "expecting" them from anyone, unless it is part of the prenegotiated deal.

Simple.

studio L wrote:
I think you are overreacting.

Look for ways to make money-not have problems making money.

Remember-the customer is always right.

Keep the attitude out, and the accomodation in...if you want the revenue.

Bingo!

The way I read into the conversation it indicates that she balked at his offer, and he said nevermind. Basically, he just said "Next". He probably found another model who was more accomodating and less of a hassle.

This is what happens when you try to play hardball.

Perhaps a better response would have been, "I'm open to your ideas. What do you have in mind?" Instead of going into a long spiel.

Instead, you tried to wiggle more out of him than he was willing to give and now you've lost the gig. Now you get to sit at home and make no money. But, while you're sitting at home making no money, perhaps you can search for your next paying shoot.

Welcome to the wide world of sales.

studio L wrote:

I think you are overreacting.

Look for ways to make money-not have problems making money.

Remember-the customer is always right.

Keep the attitude out, and the accomodation in...if you want the revenue.

I think you have read too many self help gurus.

She said, "if you think my rate may be too high then maybe we can work something out."

How much more accomodating should she be short of bending over?