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Cops Took my Camera!!
I was shooting with a model today and this evening, age 17, in her bikini, thong bikini, jeans and bikini top. A ladt in the park got pissed this evening and yelled at us, thinking my model was nude. I explained to her from the distance that she had on a bikini. She did not believe me and threatened to call police. I said go ahead and continued shooting. The office came and I was shooting as he walked up, thinking all was OK. I offered to show him the pics and he looked, saying some were questionable. Borderline is what he said. He checked all of our ID's, and one of our party was a local girl who runs 2 model websites of bikini models, so she was used to this kind of thing. She had been along to watch a photo shoot. In the end he asked if I knew she was 17, I said yes. He said because some of the images were questionable they could be construed as pornography! Told me the legal age was 18. Now I was under the impression that pornography involved more than one person or solo sexual acts and/or nudity. There was NONE of that here. He stated that the lace panties showed through a "little." WTF?? So, he said they had to log my camera in with my memory card. I asked to remove the card and he tried to get the Seargent to accept that but was told they felt better if the whole camera was logged in to avoid any possible damage on their part to my camera. There are NO nude images on my card or any "porno." I am not really worried about that, but I would like my images that we got that are REALLY good. And I have a shoot tomorrow and would like to photograph my daughter Sunday, but now they have my camera!!! They want to make sure I am not one of those predators, which they will find out I am not. So.... now what??? A little pissed Jun 16 06 11:08 pm Link Seek a ACLU lawyer.. You are going to be a rich man your rights were violated. Cheers Jun 16 06 11:11 pm Link Hence the reason why I don't shoot underaged models. No matter how tame the shoot, and no matter what their mother allows them to do. If you aren't old enough to make a legal decision and sign your own release then you aren't old enough to shoot (with me). Too much hassle. Jun 16 06 11:12 pm Link Doug Jantz wrote: I realize the shooting a model age 17 was no big deal to you.....but under most state laws.....you're in trouble if you do....even "suggestive" photos can land you in hot water..... Jun 16 06 11:14 pm Link I think you have to just sit back and wait until cooler minds prevail. My comment though is that you could have handled the woman better. Whether or not you are right, it would have been easier to retreat than try to invoke your rights. I don't know enough to make a judgement as to what will ultimately happen here, I would hope nothing because it all sounds innocuous. That having been said, my impression is that it all could have been avoided. I suspect it will all turn out fine. Perhaps it is time to buy a backup camera. Jun 16 06 11:15 pm Link The other girl with us was a third party. Jun 16 06 11:23 pm Link RNG studio wrote: How so, since the police obviously have a right to do this? Jun 16 06 11:24 pm Link Doug Jantz wrote: Really? Would you be so kind as to quote the law that gives them the right to take his camera? Jun 16 06 11:25 pm Link Christopher Ambler wrote: They want to look at the pics to detemine nothing was wrong, which I know isn't. So you are telling me they don't have a right to do this? Jun 16 06 11:28 pm Link Doug Jantz wrote: No, you just told me that they did. I understand what they want, but I've asked you to show me the law that substantiates your claim. Would you do so, please? Jun 16 06 11:33 pm Link (double post. sorry.) Jun 16 06 11:33 pm Link Jeez, it's a state law and may not apply to Washington. Or even exist. Hire a lawyer and find out for your self. Jun 16 06 11:36 pm Link Michael Longeneker wrote: Please quote me that State law, then. This isn't rocket science, calm down. The gentleman made a clear claim that the police had the right to take his camera and memory. I'm merely asking him to substantiate that claim. Jun 16 06 11:37 pm Link Christopher Ambler wrote: WEll, I was just uder the impression that they could confiscate it if it was considered a source of any evidence they might want to go over. Jun 16 06 11:40 pm Link I'm perfectly calm, you want the answer you find it. Not rocket science either. Jun 16 06 11:40 pm Link Well you know what? Shooting a 17 year old in see through lingerie isn't really a great idea. And you can save the ACLU lawyer... if the cop had grounds (which it sounds like he did) then they had the right (as much as it does suck I agree). Thing is, with all the "decency" talk in the US right now... and a public complaint in particular in this instance... they obviously had grounds so now it will be up to a prosecutor to make a decision. Probably a good chance that there will be no charges proceeded with.... but the cops are just doing their job. Jun 16 06 11:45 pm Link Doug Jantz wrote: A source of evidence for what crime? Were you arrested? Were you charged? Jun 16 06 11:47 pm Link That's Crazy.....Hope It All Turns Out Well For You....And You Still Get To Photograph Your Daughter...It's Sad What The World Has Come To. ! P.S. Be Careful Sunday Photographing Your Daughter...They might Really Think You're A Pedophile ! But You Can't Blame The Police, They Run Into A Lot Of Crazy Sh*t ! Buena Suerte ! (Good Luck) Jun 16 06 11:51 pm Link "Pornography" is still a community standard. It is SUBJECTIVE. There are no hard fast rules. If any of those shots are sexually suggestive or depict nudity you may be in very hot water. It's illegal in some states to even have a sexually explicit drawing of a child. For the purposes of creating images...a child is anyone under 18. That's Federal Law. I really think you need to consult an attorney immediately and discuss what the police have, and also, whether he or she thinks leaving up this thread is a good idea. Statments by the accused are an exception to the rules against hearsay. I'm not afraid to shoot someone under 18 as long as a parent or guardian is present. I don't know about women but on young men I'd be afraid to shoot them in anything less than regular cut men's briefs in poses like you'd see in a Sear's Catalog. Again, I think you need to consult an attorney admitted to both State and Federal Courts from your jurisdiction immediately. Perhaps everything will be okay...but this is something I would not try to screw around with on my own. Brian Sloane, Esq. Jun 16 06 11:52 pm Link 10-7 Photography wrote: Actually it wasn't see through, which is why I offered to let them look and take the memory card, which I would have been fine with. The pic he referred to really showed nothing. The funny thing was a buddy of mine is one of the Park Rangers here, who also came out. He thought they were all just borderline and shoots nudes himself. He has watched me shoot in some parks downtown. Jun 16 06 11:53 pm Link 10-7 Photography wrote: Pray tell, what grounds would those be? What charge? Surely not indecent exposure, because even in his state, it was not violated by any stretch. Creating a public nuisance? No, probably not - and even if so, the best the police could have done would have been to ask him to stop and leave or face tresspass charges, depending on where he was. Jun 16 06 11:53 pm Link 10-7 Photography wrote: Oh, the public complaint was while she had on a bikini. Jun 16 06 11:53 pm Link Jai er wrote: I can't photograph her now, they have my camera! Jun 16 06 11:56 pm Link I don't think the police have the right to take the camera without a warrant. You should have insisted on one. I would never give mine up without one. I would rather get arrested than to give it up. At some point we are all going to have to make a stand. I also agree with Alan, it probably could have been avoided. Jun 16 06 11:57 pm Link male-portfolios wrote: I will be contacting someone, but there is nothing on the images anyway. I am not worried about those, I am mad about my camera Jun 16 06 11:58 pm Link the guy that says get a lawyer is right they have no grounds to to take your equipment.. did you have a model release?? and was it signed by the parent as well as the model.. if so then your good to go and get a million bucks.... they police can not take your images nor your equipment no matter they would have to arrest you and they didnt so i would go and pick up your camera and card no telling who they are showing at the statino which violates your right of publication as well.. so there are many grounds for you win,, although was the area you where shoot in public or private prop?? Jun 16 06 11:58 pm Link I don't know if the police had the right to take away your camera, but they diffentaely had the right to take the memory card & view the images. As for the images themselves I know you may think your in the clear, but there is a chance that you are not. Under child porn laws images can be concidered porn if they "graphic or simulated lascivious exhibition of the genitals or pubic area of any person". The courts have interpurted this to include images where the pubic area is covered (by a bikkini, panty, etc.). It's all on the way the area is displayed & the focus of the photo. If it focuses on the genital region, even if it's covered it can be considered "porn". Nudity is not a requirement. hence the police officer feeling some of your photos were questionable, ecspecially the one showing the bit of lace panty. Believe or not there have been several nonude "pereteen/child model" sites that have been closed down, because they featured such photos. Your situation is unique, in my mind, as the model was 17 where most of the models in the sites I mentioned were preteens or younger. The police, however, are taking this kind of thing more serious than ever before. I'm not prepared to pass jugdment on your photos with out first having seen them. I'm just letting you know what has happemned in the past & what the law says. If you'd like to read the actual law & deffinations heres a link: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html … -000-.html I sincerely hope nothing comes of this & that you get your camera back! Thanks for listening! -Jason (PhotoMageia) Jun 16 06 11:59 pm Link EXACTLY the reason I do NOT shoot with minors!! It is just not worth the trouble at all. You are lucky all he did was take your camera! Jun 17 06 12:01 am Link Oh, holy hell. I give up. This place is obviously full of people hiding their law degrees in their closet and choosing to be photographers, instead. Best of luck to you, sir, I sure hope you get yourself a good attorney and don't rely on anyone around here (especially me). Jun 17 06 12:03 am Link ⢠Illegal Search and Seizure READ http://www.krages.com/bpkphoto.htm Better yet, call or HIRE this guy.. Jun 17 06 12:03 am Link PhotoMageia wrote: They need a warrant to confinscate media that is all media including memory cards. Get a atorney and call the ACLU. Jun 17 06 12:03 am Link The police are not required to have a warrant to seize potential evidence if there are exigent circumstances, such as the immediate risk of removal or destruction of evidence during the delay required to procure a warrant. If the officer was not familiar with digital cameras and the facts and circumstances would lead a reasonable and prudent person to believe a crime MAY be being comitted, he was well within his right to seize the potential evidence. And he MAY VERY WELL BE getting a warrant to search the camera. If this 17 year-old is in a few poses like the one's I've seen on this poster's profile...I'm seriously worried what may happen to him here. Brian Jun 17 06 12:07 am Link IF no guardian was present and since the model was under 18 the cop can take the camera and film or card and investigate if they was anything inappropriate. If she was wearing a see thru thong. he would be suspicious. If nothing turns out to be wrong then you will get your property back. ITs never a good Idea to become an activist when being questioned by a cop. Just be polite and find out what can be done afterward. As for the written law, its probably in the same section as the one that says they can come to your home and take your computer if they suspect you are viewing child pornography. charges come later. Jun 17 06 12:07 am Link Wake up people! We have no rights in the United States of America any longer!!!! The cops can pretty much do whatever the fuck they want to do. All you have to do is go to the Police Station in the morning and talk to the person in charge with the girl and her mother preferably and get your camera back. Shit happens, you can't fight it, don't waste your time trying to get a lawyer because if you do you will NEVER get your camera back, they will hold it LEGALLY as evidence and your case will get soooo bogged down with paperwork it will be YEARS before you eventually go before a grand jury much less a trial and get the whole incident thrown out. What you can do is sue the lady who reported you for slander, she claimed you were a predator by calling the cops and you can actually sue her in civil court... but do that ONLY after you kiss ass like it's going out of style at the local police station with the model and her mother in tow... Take your portfolio with you... What is good about this happening is that now the local police will know you are NOT a predator and you are a Legit Photographer and won't bother you EVER again for fear of lawsuits... Jun 17 06 12:07 am Link Christopher Ambler wrote: The police do have the authority to seize 'evidence' if it's in plain sight, and if they believe a crime has been committed. It's then up to the county/city/state attorney to determine is a crime has indeed been committed. My guess is that nothing will become of this, the camera will be returned, with some form of appology, however insincere. Jun 17 06 12:09 am Link Doug Jantz wrote: You ASKED for trouble and you got it. Jun 17 06 12:09 am Link Moda Photographic wrote: Um no, thats still illegal search and siezure.. They still must obtain a court ordered search warrant.. Jun 17 06 12:09 am Link male-portfolios wrote: I don't think he could distroy evidence while standing in the park with the police. They must arrest him to take his media, but otherwise must get a court order. If they are made to get a warrant every time they might think twice about it next time. Down load the photographers rights pamplet someone left a link to. Jun 17 06 12:13 am Link "What you can do is sue the lady who reported you for slander, she claimed you were a predator by calling the cops and you can actually sue her in civil court" Citizen's have absolute immunity from suit for slander for making a good faith report to the police if they believe a crime is afoot. Only if they were malicious and knowingly lied can they be sued...and even then only after ALL charges have been dismissed on the merits. I'm goin to bed...g-nite people... brian Jun 17 06 12:14 am Link Tim Baker wrote: I do have a signed model release by her and her mother. Jun 17 06 12:15 am Link |
