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JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
Some commentators are talking about a surprise attack on Israel which invites comparisons to the 1973 war, but in this instance the people doing the attacking are citizens of territories controlled by Israel. It's a civil war, the obvious comparisons would be with the ongoing conflict in Syria or perhaps Algeria in the 1950s to 1960s, where the French built a defensive barrier, the Morice line with the aim of keeping out the FLM militants who were trying to overthrow their colonial rule. This was less than totally effective; https://www.historynet.com/algerian-quagmire/ US recognition is Israel in 1948 was probably based partly on an assumption that the world would accept it's annexation of territory as a fait accompli and eventually forget about it. It appears that they were mistaken on both counts. Today, the US government has a problem; it cannot easily support Israel politically and financially without also being seen to support the apartheid policy of the Israeli government of Benjamin Netenyahu towards the Palestinians. Even to say, "the Jewish people have a right to self determination" isn't very different philosophically from saying "the Aryan people have a right to self determination", and it sounds a lot like "the Jewish people have a right to brutalise and displace Palestinian people" when that is what it means in practice. According to international law, all states have a right to defend themselves. But people like UK foreign secretary James Cleverly are being quite selective in their criticism of HAMAS rocket attacks, when both sides are indiscriminately killing civilians. In the Israeli case they are are doing it US supplied warplanes to bomb residential areas in Gaza. This has become their usual response to acts of terrorism, and it is not usually a very effective one, as has been proved recently by the failure of the Russian Air Force to terrorise the Ukrainian population. Israel is destroying itself rather than defending itself.
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JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
It's quite interesting how the US and UK Governments, along with some elements of the media seem to be trying to respond to this as though it's a repeat of the 1973 war in which Israel was attacked by Egypt and Syria, possibly because they don't know what else to do, they don't have any contingency plans for this specific situation, which is neither an invasion or a terrorist attack, it's a guerrilla insurgency of a kind that HAMAS weren't considered capable of putting into effect.
The US government should be careful to avoid repeating Ronald Reagan's ill-judged intervention in Lebanon in 1982 which served mainly to demonstrate the inapplicability of conventional military power in unconventional warfare situations. Air strikes and bombardment from the battleship USS New Jersey did not have a decisive effect on Hizbollah because of the difficulty of locating targets.
It's worth remembering that the Gaza Strip came into existence as a result of the 1948 war and that around 3 million people now live there in conditions that most of us would probably find intolerable, 50% are unemployed and 75% are under the age of 25. It would hardly be possible to imagine a more ideal recruiting ground for Palestinian militant organisations.
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Bob Helm Photography
Posts: 18907
Cherry Hill, New Jersey, US
When it happened, and the savage nature of the attack was a surprise but not that it happened or the Nation State behind it.
I disagree that it is a civil war, it is a proxy war and a massacre where the victim is already being blamed
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GSmithPhoto
Posts: 749
Alameda, California, US
JSouthworth wrote:
Some commentators are talking about a surprise attack on Israel which invites comparisons to the 1973 war, but in this instance the people doing the attacking are citizens of territories controlled by Israel. It's a civil war, the obvious comparisons would be with the ongoing conflict in Syria or perhaps Algeria in the 1950s to 1960s, where the French built a defensive barrier, the Morice line with the aim of keeping out the FLM militants who were trying to overthrow their colonial rule. This was less than totally effective;
https://www.historynet.com/algerian-quagmire/
US recognition is Israel in 1948 was probably based partly on an assumption that the world would accept it's annexation of territory as a fait accompli and eventually forget about it. It appears that they were mistaken on both counts. Today, the US government has a problem; it cannot easily support Israel politically and financially without also being seen to support the apartheid policy of the Israeli government of Benjamin Netenyahu towards the Palestinians. Even to say, "the Jewish people have a right to self determination" isn't very different philosophically from saying "the Aryan people have a right to self determination", and it sounds a lot like "the Jewish people have a right to brutalise and displace Palestinian people" when that is what it means in practice.
According to international law, all states have a right to defend themselves. But people like UK foreign secretary James Cleverly are being quite selective in their criticism of HAMAS rocket attacks, when both sides are indiscriminately killing civilians. In the Israeli case they are are doing it US supplied warplanes to bomb residential areas in Gaza. This has become their usual response to acts of terrorism, and it is not usually a very effective one, as has been proved recently by the failure of the Russian Air Force to terrorise the Ukrainian population. Israel is destroying itself rather than defending itself.
It's quite interesting how the US and UK Governments, along with some elements of the media seem to be trying to respond to this as though it's a repeat of the 1973 war in which Israel was attacked by Egypt and Syria, possibly because they don't know what else to do, they don't have any contingency plans for this specific situation, which is neither an invasion or a terrorist attack, it's a guerrilla insurgency of a kind that HAMAS weren't considered capable of putting into effect.
The US government should be careful to avoid repeating Ronald Reagan's ill-judged intervention in Lebanon in 1982 which served mainly to demonstrate the inapplicability of conventional military power in unconventional warfare situations. Air strikes and bombardment from the battleship USS New Jersey did not have a decisive effect on Hizbollah because of the difficulty of locating targets.
It's worth remembering that the Gaza Strip came into existence as a result of the 1948 war and that around 3 million people now live there in conditions that most of us would probably find intolerable, 50% are unemployed and 75% are under the age of 25. It would hardly be possible to imagine a more ideal recruiting ground for Palestinian militant organisations. ...spoken like a card-carrying member of the British Neo-Nazi party.
Your conclusions are based on lies and conjecture. Perhaps you have forgotten your own history, no?
Just curious - If you put a single lion in the savannah, and surround him with a hundred jackals, who do you have your money on to survive? Now give that lion a CIWS, a couple of teams from the SAS and SBS, and see how the odds change?
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JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
To be clear, the surprising thing about the events of the last three days is the level of technical capability displayed by HAMAS in breaching the Israeli defensive systems, I think they had help from Iran and Russia. It would make sense for Russia to enable HAMAS to do this in order to divert military assistance from Ukraine to Israel and it appears they have been successful in that with some help from Joe Biden. If you confine three million people in what is effectively a prison and then bomb it, you cannot expect anything better than what we have seen in the last few days. There is a racist double standard running through the policy of Western governments and the Western media which says in effect that when the Israelis bomb Gaza as they do every other week, inevitably killing innocent people, that's acceptable but when Palestinian militants kill Israelis, it isn't acceptable because then it's "people like us" who are the victims, and so we throw up our hands in horror at the realisation that our illusion of security is just that. Like NATO Air forces, the Israelis have trailed behind the state of the art in developing and deploying armed drones, also called UCAVs, preferring to rely on the traditional manned tactical fighter. This is disadvantageous in the present situation when the armed drone with it's stabilised magnifying optical system is the weapon that can locate a rocket launcher and attack it immediately, whereas the pilot of a fighter has essentially no chance of spotting such a small target amid smoke and rubble using his or her unaided vision. They do possess some armed drones but these are inferior to the US Predator series in terms of payload. https://drones.rusi.org/countries/israel/
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JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
Just curious - If you put a single lion in the savannah, and surround him with a hundred jackals, who do you have your money on to survive? So you think the Israelis are lions and everyone else in the Middle East is a jackal, do you? That certainly is crassly racist.
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JQuest
Posts: 2450
Syracuse, New York, US
GSmithPhoto wrote:
...spoken like a card-carrying member of the British Neo-Nazi party.
Your conclusions are based on lies and conjecture. Perhaps you have forgotten your own history, no?
Just curious - If you put a single lion in the savannah, and surround him with a hundred jackals, who do you have your money on to survive? Now give that lion a CIWS, a couple of teams from the SAS and SBS, and see how the odds change? +1 QFT
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JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
The Israelis were bombing Gaza and killing civilians last week, and the week before that as well if I remember correctly, anywhere else in the world these attacks would be considered acts of war, if they bombed Cairo or Tehran or New York that would be an act of war. So I don't think it's credible in this instance for Israel or the US to accuse HAMAS of starting a war or carrying out an unprovoked attack, that's ridiculously hypocritical and stupid. You could easily characterise their actions as retaliation for Israeli aggression if you chose to do so, even though it's clear that this was an attack carefully planned over a period of months.
Some of Joe Biden's recent statements underline the basic double standard in US policy, he tells us that HAMAS are guilty of evil terrorism for killing Israeli civilians with rocket attacks, he doesn't criticise Israel when they randomly kill civilians in Gaza using US supplied combat aircraft. When a bomb hits a concrete building the flying debris can easily kill and injure people at a distance of half a mile or more, this is often how people end up in hospital or dead.
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JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
Going back to the example of Algeria, history has generally justified the terrorism of the FLN as part of a process of ending French colonialism, one day it may justify the HAMAS action as helping to end Zionist neo-colonialism. Or it may regard it as being merely part of a chain of events leading to a destructive regional conflict, that's another possibility. The danger for US foreign policy is that of being slowly dragged down to the level of day-to-day expediency by way of a series of misjudgements and compromises as in Vietnam.
The immediate lesson seems to be the inadvisability of over-reliance on technology for security, it's clear that HAMAS were able to defeat the physical barriers, surveillance systems and the Iron Dome anti-rocket defense system that were supposed to guarantee the safety of Israel's citizens. Early on it was being claimed that these were disabled using electronic countermeasures, ECM or radar jamming, this suggests that there may have been Russian assistance but no detailed information is available at present.
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Model Sarah
Posts: 40987
Columbus, Ohio, US
JSouthworth wrote:
The Israelis were bombing Gaza and killing civilians last week, and the week before that as well if I remember correctly, anywhere else in the world these attacks would be considered acts of war, if they bombed Cairo or Tehran or New York that would be an act of war. So I don't think it's credible in this instance for Israel or the US to accuse HAMAS of starting a war or carrying out an unprovoked attack, that's ridiculously hypocritical and stupid. You could easily characterise their actions as retaliation for Israeli aggression if you chose to do so, even though it's clear that this was an attack carefully planned over a period of months.
Some of Joe Biden's recent statements underline the basic double standard in US policy, he tells us that HAMAS are guilty of evil terrorism for killing Israeli civilians with rocket attacks, he doesn't criticise Israel when they randomly kill civilians in Gaza using US supplied combat aircraft. When a bomb hits a concrete building the flying debris can easily kill and injure people at a distance of half a mile or more, this is often how people end up in hospital or dead. Mhmm. Because according to the WEAKEST argument I have ever heard, you are anti semitic for criticizing the actions of Israel. Israel carries their balls in wheelbarrows thanks to our support. It is absolutely ghastly what they have done to the Palestinian people over the years. No one agrees with the actions of HAMAS, but it isn't all that different from the actions of Israel yet America blindly supports them.
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rxz
Posts: 1091
Glen Ellyn, Illinois, US
When the English overlords left Palestine in 1948, there wasn't a stable government left in control. Jewish immigrants unwelcome in Europe (or almost anywhere else) after the NAZIs were immigrating back to their ancestral homeland that dated back over 3000 years. The Muslims who had spread out from Saudi Arabia 1500 years ago, didn't want them there. So instead of peace with the Jewish folk, the Muslims chose war and lost. And they are still fighting after 75 years still hoping to kill all the Jews.
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JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
I was reading the book, The Eleventh Plague; The Politics of Biological and Chemical Warfare by Leonard A. Cole who describes how at the beginning of the 1991 Gulf War, all Jewish Israeli citizens were issued with gas masks, many also received atropine injectors to counter the effects of nerve agents, these became a cause of hospital admissions when some people used them prematurely. The Palestinians didn't get either, officially because there weren't enough to go round, in reality because their lives weren't considered important. In the event Saddam Hussein did not attack Israel with chemical weapons.
The attitude of Israelis towards the Palestinians can be characterised as colonialist, they basically regard them as being inferior culturally and racially and the Israeli government and state systematically discriminate against them in all respects, they are for practical purposes treated as helots. Your tax dollars at work.
South Africa made the transition from apartheid to an inclusive society, so I wouldn't rule out that possibility completely.
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LightDreams
Posts: 4440
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
THE OFFICIAL DEATH TOLL (so far)
- as per the Wall Street Journal
After 5 DAYS of fighting and bombardments:
2,717 Dead
9,250 Wounded
The breakdown:
Israel: 1,300 Dead and 3,000 Wounded
Gaza: 1,417 Dead and 6,250 Wounded
FAR too many innocents (on all sides) end up being the ones that pay the price.
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JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
rxz wrote:
When the English overlords left Palestine in 1948, there wasn't a stable government left in control. Jewish immigrants unwelcome in Europe (or almost anywhere else) after the NAZIs were immigrating back to their ancestral homeland that dated back over 3000 years. The Muslims who had spread out from Saudi Arabia 1500 years ago, didn't want them there. So instead of peace with the Jewish folk, the Muslims chose war and lost. And they are still fighting after 75 years still hoping to kill all the Jews. Having conducted a campaign of terrorism against the British authorities, the Jewish leaders never had any intention of accepting the UN partition plan, but this is how it was supposed to work out;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na … _Palestine
The 1948 war was basically a campaign of "ethnic cleansing" of the kind seen more recently in Bosnia-Herzegovina, consisting more of guerrilla warfare and terrorism than conventional maneuver warfare involving large units. Combat casualties on all sides totalled about 10,000 killed while around 13,000 Palestinian civilians disappeared, presumed killed. There appears to be documentary evidence of crimes committed by IDF members in the 1948 war;
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/202 … 9772340000
More evidence of war crimes committed in 1948 can be seen here;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ … s-car-park
This conflict represented an escalation of the terrorism and sectarian killing that had been going on for years in Palestine but which the British authorities had previously been able to control to a limited extent. It should be said that the Jewish immigrants were victims as well as perpetrators in this violence. Some of the details are very unpleasant, the victims were often sadistically killed and mutilated, it was not unlike the Colombian Violencia or the Nicaragua-Contra War in some respects.
Recent events in Israel are not unprecedented, they represent the continuation of a cycle of racial and sectarian violence. Reconciliation is only likely to become possible when there a full accounting for the events of 1948 and the crimes committed at that time and since by both sides.
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JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
Meanwhile in Ukraine, the Russian Army have just launched their biggest offensive in months; https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ru … 6&ei=9 In a circumstantial sense this seems to support the theory of Russian involvement in the HAMAS offensive.
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Focuspuller
Posts: 2756
Los Angeles, California, US
JSouthworth wrote:
Meanwhile in Ukraine, the Russian Army have just launched their biggest offensive in months;
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ru … 6&ei=9
In a circumstantial sense this seems to support the theory of Russian involvement in the HAMAS offensive. No, it does not.
In a circumstantial sense, this seems to support the theory that this thread is just yet another vanity post for the dumping of irrelevant, unsupported, nonsense.
Link goes nowhere pertinent, as usual.
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LightDreams
Posts: 4440
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Israel has ordered Northern Gaza's 1.1 Million residents to leave within 24 hours
They can't leave Gaza as they are sealed in, and they have to rely on word of mouth to get the word out to everyone (electricity has been turned off to all of Gaza, as well as all water, food, medical supplies and fuel, etc). So the logistics are quite difficult to try and rapidly move 1.1 million people to a somewhat "safer" part of Gaza.
It's the same issue that we've seen from both sides, repeatedly. The political / military leaders do not distinguish between the regular population (see the music festival slaughter, etc) and those who are military combatants or violent terrorists. As I've said before, all too often it's the "innocents" (on both sides), that end up paying the price.
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LightDreams
Posts: 4440
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Update:
Israel MAY allow a 5-hour window for Foreign Nationals (and only foreign nationals) who are trapped in Gaza, to be allowed to leave.
It's not confirmed yet, but if it's confirmed there will be one exit point in South Gaza temporarily opened for that purpose. Apparently, there's been incredible pressure by other countries on Israel to at least allow their particular citizens, who have been trapped there (with the constant bombardment before the expected major attack force) to be allowed to safely leave.
Tentatively set for tomorrow afternoon. That's assuming that Israel officially agrees and that the foreign nationals can be reached with the news, and that they can find a way to get to the designated exit point in Southern Gaza by then.
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GSmithPhoto
Posts: 749
Alameda, California, US
JSouthworth wrote:
So you think the Israelis are lions and everyone else in the Middle East is a jackal, do you? That certainly is crassly racist. Given your ignorance, you're not worth my time to discuss this subject.
Perhaps MI-5 might want to have a chat with you.
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JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
This is a war, and it isn't a private party, anybody can join in so the US government needs to consider military options if they want to have a decisive influence on events. Joe Biden could order the US Marines into Gaza to impose order and assist the UN in the distribution of food and medical aid. That would probably involve them in armed confrontations with both Islamist militants and the Israeli military, which if nothing else would help them to project impartiality, which is what they need to do because they need to be able to engage with the whole region, including Egypt and Iran, not just Israel, the US doesn't need to be seen supporting a cowardly, Guernica-like bombardment of a mainly civilian population.
What we're seeing now is Benjamin Netanyahu trying to salvage whatever is left of his political reputation and in the process dragging the international reputation of Israel through the gutter along with those of it's principal allies, the US and the UK.
One carrier battle group in the Eastern Mediterranean is not enough, they would need to have three or four with the Marines and additional ground forces available as well, along with the willingness to kick butt with anyone who tries to interfere with US and UN humanitarian assistance operations. It might come to that; military intervention carries risks but the alternative is to have this same thing happening over and over every ten years.
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JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
JSouthworth wrote:
Meanwhile in Ukraine, the Russian Army have just launched their biggest offensive in months;
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ru … 6&ei=9
In a circumstantial sense this seems to support the theory of Russian involvement in the HAMAS offensive. The Russian ground offensive is unlikely to be opportunistic because of the time required for preparation. After the planning and prior reconnaissance, the units taking part have to be moved into position along with the supplies of fuel and ammunition required, if possible without alerting the enemy. Units taking part may need to be re-equipped and re-trained for specific tasks, the commanders have to be briefed, detailed plans have to made for artillery and air support. This preparation usually takes weeks, sometimes months.
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Focuspuller
Posts: 2756
Los Angeles, California, US
JSouthworth wrote:
This is a war, and it isn't a private party, anybody can join in so the US government needs to consider military options if they want to have a decisive influence on events. Joe Biden could order the US Marines into Gaza to impose order and assist the UN in the distribution of food and medical aid. That would probably involve them in armed confrontations with both Islamist militants and the Israeli military, which if nothing else would help them to project impartiality, which is what they need to do because they need to be able to engage with the whole region, including Egypt and Iran, not just Israel, the US doesn't need to be seen supporting a cowardly, Guernica-like bombardment of a mainly civilian population.
. Preposterous. Exactly the kind of nonsense one would expect from an uninformed amateur posing as an expert, the platform for which obviously the purpose of this vanity thread.
"That would probably involve them in armed confrontations with both Islamist militants and the Israeli military, which if nothing else would help them to project impartiality..."
Sophomoric fantasizing. Just unbelievable. Does ANY knowledgeable person seriously believe the US would engage in armed conflict with the IDF?
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Focuspuller
Posts: 2756
Los Angeles, California, US
JSouthworth wrote:
The Russian ground offensive is unlikely to be opportunistic because of the time required for preparation. After the planning and prior reconnaissance, the units taking part have to be moved into position along with the supplies of fuel and ammunition required, if possible without alerting the enemy. Units taking part may need to be re-equipped and re-trained for specific tasks, the commanders have to be briefed, detailed plans have to made for artillery and air support. This preparation usually takes weeks, sometimes months. Interesting gambit; proposing, then refuting your own baseless speculations.
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JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
Focuspuller wrote:
Does ANY knowledgeable person seriously believe the US would engage in armed conflict with the IDF? They already have, although it was more a case of the Israelis engaging the US Navy in armed conflict;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
In the 1970s there were also incidences of the Israelis attempting to shoot down unarmed USAF SR71 Blackbird reconnaissance aircraft.
Israel is a recipient of US military aid, it has never been an ally of the United States or any other country. They don't allow use of their military facilities, they don't share intelligence, they sell US military technology to countries hostile to US interests;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl … 10406.html
Here's something else that's interesting, documentary proof that Israel has nuclear weapons and that they offered to sell them to the apartheid regime of P.W. Botha in South Africa. Evidence of deception and institutional racism.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/ … ar-weapons
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JQuest
Posts: 2450
Syracuse, New York, US
JSouthworth wrote:
Israel is a recipient of US military aid, it has never been an ally of the United States or any other country. They don't allow use of their military facilities, they don't share intelligence, they sell US military technology to countries hostile to US interests; Israel and the Unites States aren't Allies? I wonder if anyone has notified them of that yet? I would link to the quote below, but it's just too easy to google your prevarications.
"Israel is designated as a major non-NATO ally by the U.S. government. A major purchaser and user of U.S. military equipment, Israel is also involved in the joint development of military technology and regularly engages in joint military exercises involving United States and other forces." Then there is this from last July; US and Israel start joint military exercise
We get that you're not a fan of Israel, however dredging up articles from 1993 and off topic rants about South Africa do not bolster your position, they only reinforce the continued intellectual laziness and the penchant for mendacity in your offerings. As such I will no longer be engaging with your posts, and I would urge others to do likewise.
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GSmithPhoto
Posts: 749
Alameda, California, US
JQuest wrote:
We get that you're not a fan of Israel, however dredging up articles from 1993 and off topic rants about South Africa do not bolster your position, they only reinforce the continued intellectual laziness and the penchant for mendacity in your offerings. As such I will no longer be engaging with your posts, and I would urge others to do likewise. +1
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Mark Salo
Posts: 11725
Olney, Maryland, US
JQuest wrote:
We get that you're not a fan of Israel, however dredging up articles from 1993 and off topic rants about South Africa do not bolster your position, they only reinforce the continued intellectual laziness and the penchant for mendacity in your offerings. As such I will no longer be engaging with your posts, and I would urge others to do likewise. Why do people insist on feeding the trolls?
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JQuest
Posts: 2450
Syracuse, New York, US
Mark Salo wrote:
Why do people insist on feeding the trolls? It's a mistake I will no longer be making.
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Focuspuller
Posts: 2756
Los Angeles, California, US
JSouthworth wrote:
They already have, although it was more a case of the Israelis engaging the US Navy in armed conflict;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
In the 1970s there were also incidences of the Israelis attempting to shoot down unarmed USAF SR71 Blackbird reconnaissance aircraft.
Israel is a recipient of US military aid, it has never been an ally of the United States or any other country. They don't allow use of their military facilities, they don't share intelligence, they sell US military technology to countries hostile to US interests;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl … 10406.html
Here's something else that's interesting, documentary proof that Israel has nuclear weapons and that they offered to sell them to the apartheid regime of P.W. Botha in South Africa. Evidence of deception and institutional racism.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/ … ar-weapons Refer to as many sources that fail to support your claim as you want, the US military will NOT be getting into armed conflict with the IDF in Gaza no matter how you redefine terms and move goalposts, or enlist irrelevant events.
Check your e-mail. Your dorm room philosophical/political debating club wants its bong back.
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Focuspuller
Posts: 2756
Los Angeles, California, US
JSouthworth wrote:
More evidence of war crimes committed in 1948 can be seen here;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ … s-car-park
. And just so we aren't being a colossal Brit hypocrite apologist for the original colonialists who fucked up the Middle East in the first place, a little balance:
UK APOLOGY SOUGHT FOR BRITISH WAR CRIMES IN PALESTINE
"The petition, involving a 300-page dossier of evidence, asks for a formal acknowledgement and apology for abuses during the period of British rule in Palestine from 1917 until 1948, after which Britain rapidly withdrew and the State of Israel was declared."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63145992
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JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
JQuest wrote:
Then there is this from last July; US and Israel start joint military exercise Israel is a major user of US military equipment, true. They get about $3 billion in US military aid every year, which they have to spend on US made equipment. Not Russian equipment.
To quote a line from that article;
The Israeli military said in a series of tweets that the exercise is aimed at achieving “aerial superiority in the region and cyber defense in the face of a variety of threats and challenges”.
The exercise involved some co-operation between the USAF and the Israeli Air Force but US ground forces were not deployed to Israel on any scale. Even this degree of co-operation is rare, the Israeli military are extremely secretive.
Iran is the only obvious military rival to Israel in the region, but the distances involved make a threat to Israel from the Iranian Air Force unlikely. The real purpose of the exercise may have been to rehearse a possible Israeli attack on nuclear facilities or other targets in Iran with USAF air refuelling support.
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JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
The Israeli military have no capabilities that the US lacks, so if the US chooses to assist Israel in air operations against Iran it's for political reasons, they don't want direct US involvement. The trend towards covert action (called Black Ops in the USAF) is basically undesirable, for two reasons. Firstly, it undermines the credibility of US foreign policy; if something has to be hidden or disguised, it may be unethical. Secondly, the requirement for semi-secrecy makes military operations seem more exciting but in practical terms it also limits their scale and consequently their effectiveness. The USAF and the Israeli Air Force have a mutual affinity because they share certain ideas about the central importance of air power in warfare, they think that if you have air superiority that gives you victory. This is basically pre- World War Two thinking. The situation in Gaza shows how useless manned tactical fighters actually are in some situations. The IAF knows that they can't do much damage to HAMAS in their tunnels, so they target civil infrastructure, killing a lot of civilians. The employment of these supposedly sophisticated aircraft in bombing missions is nevertheless mandatory because if they stayed on the ground, their uselessness would be even more apparent and then people would question whether they were really worth funding. Such is the internal logic of the dog and pony show. The timing of the recent bombing of the Al Ahli Baptist hospital in Gaza suggests a deliberate act by the Israelis to prevent Joe Biden from meeting Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas. I don't think they want Biden in Israel at this time, because his visit underlines Israel's dependence on the US at a time when Benjamin Netanyahu wants to look like Moses. The video from the scene of the attack shows no large crater, rocket parts or anything else to prove that a large rocket hit the car park, it looks like an air bursting bomb or a missile warhead, possibly of a fuel-air explosive type as used for example in the US AGM114N thermobaric Hellfire missile, first deployed in 2004 and used with the Predator series of UAVs; https://www.globalsecurity.org/military … m-114n.htm The warhead contains fluorinated aluminium powder which creates very high temperatures when ignited by the explosive charge, with lethal effects on personnel. The Israeli Defence Force uses the Hellfire missile with it's AH64 Apache helicopters and also with armed drones; https://powerbase.info/index.php/Hellfire_Missile More information can be found on these sites; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114_Hellfire https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/li … r-AA1hZ1Dm The Israeli explanation that the blast was caused by a "misfired" rocket appears to be opportunistic, based as it is on the fact that rockets were being launched from Gaza at the time. The evidence of the telephone conversation could be very easily fabricated. Artillery rockets do sometimes misfire. If the rocket is left exposed to the sun, it can heat up on one side and this can lead to uneven and excessively rapid burning of the propellant. In this case we can rule that out. If the Israelis carried out this attack using a US supplied weapon, then that of course gives the US government an additional incentive to go along with the Israeli explanation.
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LightDreams
Posts: 4440
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
JSouthworth wrote:
The timing of the recent bombing of the Al Ahli Baptist hospital in Gaza suggests a deliberate act by the Israelis to prevent Joe Biden from meeting Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas. For the benefit of everyone else...
Ignore JSouthworth's made-up bullsh*t and conspiracy theories. As usual.
First, they're still trying to sort through the conflicting claims as to whether a Palestinian extreme terrorist group launched a missile towards Israel that went VERY wrong, or whether it came from the Israel side as claimed by Hamas. I suspect that we will see more conclusive evidence, one way or the other, before too long.
Second, regardless of which side originally launched the missile, there's the separate issue of whether the missile strike on the hospital was a mistake or (according to JSouthworth) a deliberate act.
But JSouthworth supposedly knows the "truth", unlike everybody else, including the latest U.S. intelligence analysis (released this morning, after yesterday's urgent order to investigate it by President Biden). It was, JSouthworth claims, a deliberate conspiracy orchestrated by Israel to stop Biden's visit. One that would make Israel look stunningly bad (attacking a hospital full of "innocents") and greatly inflame the situation with its neighbors.
Judge the Troll's conspiracy theories using some basic common sense, and taking into consideration his (rather extensive) history of conspiracy claims.
Besides, if he really is revealing the "truth" to everyone with his conspiracy theories, then his supposed "undercover cops" disguising themselves as models "to get him" (in addition to yet another, supposed, "undercover cop" posting here on MM), then they will REALLY be out for him now!
Photographer
JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
LightDreams wrote:
I suspect there may be a large difference between what we know about this incident, and what the Israeli, US and UK governments know. I think it was probably an intentional act on the part of the Israelis, that's my opinion at this time.
Photographer
LightDreams
Posts: 4440
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
New updates on the U.S. intelligence analysis about the Hospital explosion.
They do NOT believe that a missile STRUCK the hospital from the air, based on their aerial surveillance records, etc.
They believe that the Palestinian Islamic Jihad group was trying to launch a rocket (presumably towards Israel) FROM the "protected" area around the hospital (the parking lot), but the rocket failed / exploded when they tried to launch it.
Apparently, the aerial images show no evidence of any AERIAL based impact or explosion (no missile cratering, etc). The visible location damage is outside the hospital in the parking lot where there are lots of indications of an explosion and burning (without any missile impact crater).
Their investigation continues.
Photographer
Focuspuller
Posts: 2756
Los Angeles, California, US
LightDreams wrote:
New updates on the U.S. intelligence analysis about the Hospital explosion.
They do NOT believe that a missile STRUCK the hospital from the air, based on their aerial surveillance records, etc.
They believe that the Palestinian Islamic Jihad group was trying to launch a rocket (presumably towards Israel) FROM the "protected" area around the hospital (the parking lot), but the rocket failed / exploded when they tried to launch it.
Apparently, the aerial images show no evidence of any AERIAL based impact or explosion (no missile cratering, etc). The visible location damage is outside the hospital in the parking lot where there are lots of indications of burning (and no missile impact cratering).
Their investigation continues. The OP has, in a rare moment of candor, revealed the purpose of this thread: Disseminating unsupported opinions, despite lack of credible proof, as if his non-expert, uninformed speculations are somehow of interest.
"I suspect there may be a large difference between what we know about this incident, and what the Israeli, US and UK governments know. I think it was probably an intentional act on the part of the Israelis, that's my opinion at this time."
This is his vanity thread. It should be left to him.
Photographer
JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
JSouthworth wrote:
I suspect there may be a large difference between what we know about this incident, and what the Israeli, US and UK governments know. I think it was probably an intentional act on the part of the Israelis, that's my opinion at this time. I've seen the Israeli video, I don't think it shows a rocket "misfiring". It shows some particles of unburnt propellant being ejected from the rocket as the solid motor burns out after a few seconds, which is not unusual or a serious problem.
https://intothebackwards.tumblr.com/pos … nomenon-is
Photographer
LightDreams
Posts: 4440
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
JSouthworth wrote:
I've seen the Israeli video, I don't think it shows a rocket "misfiring". It shows some particles of unburnt propellant being ejected from the rocket as the solid motor burns out after a few seconds, which is not unusual or a serious problem.
https://intothebackwards.tumblr.com/pos … nomenon-is Go back and read the ACTUAL U.S. Intelligence analysis claim (posted here) yet again.
Your response has nothing to do with the claimed series of events. Let alone your "twilight phenomenon" link.
Photographer
JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
JSouthworth wrote:
The Israeli military have no capabilities that the US lacks, so if the US chooses to assist Israel in air operations against Iran it's for political reasons, they don't want direct US involvement.
The trend towards covert action (called Black Ops in the USAF) is basically undesirable, for two reasons. Firstly, it undermines the credibility of US foreign policy; if something has to be hidden or disguised, it may be unethical. Secondly, the requirement for semi-secrecy makes military operations seem more exciting but in practical terms it also limits their scale and consequently their effectiveness.
The USAF and the Israeli Air Force have a mutual affinity because they share certain ideas about the central importance of air power in warfare, they think that if you have air superiority that gives you victory. This is basically pre- World War Two thinking.
The situation in Gaza shows how useless manned tactical fighters actually are in some situations. The IAF knows that they can't do much damage to HAMAS in their tunnels, so they target civil infrastructure, killing a lot of civilians.
The employment of these supposedly sophisticated aircraft in bombing missions is nevertheless mandatory because if they stayed on the ground, their uselessness would be even more apparent and then people would question whether they were really worth funding. Such is the internal logic of the dog and pony show.
The timing of the recent bombing of the Al Ahli Baptist hospital in Gaza suggests a deliberate act by the Israelis to prevent Joe Biden from meeting Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas. I don't think they want Biden in Israel at this time, because his visit underlines Israel's dependence on the US at a time when Benjamin Netanyahu wants to look like Moses.
The video from the scene of the attack shows no large crater, rocket parts or anything else to prove that a large rocket hit the car park, it looks like an air bursting bomb or a missile warhead, possibly of a fuel-air explosive type as used for example in the US AGM114N thermobaric Hellfire missile, first deployed in 2004 and used with the Predator series of UAVs;
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military … m-114n.htm
The warhead contains fluorinated aluminium powder which creates very high temperatures when ignited by the explosive charge, with lethal effects on personnel.
The Israeli Defence Force uses the Hellfire missile with it's AH64 Apache helicopters and also with armed drones;
https://powerbase.info/index.php/Hellfire_Missile
More information can be found on these sites;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114_Hellfire
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/li … r-AA1hZ1Dm
The Israeli explanation that the blast was caused by a "misfired" rocket appears to be opportunistic, based as it is on the fact that rockets were being launched from Gaza at the time. The evidence of the telephone conversation could be very easily fabricated.
Artillery rockets do sometimes misfire. If the rocket is left exposed to the sun, it can heat up on one side and this can lead to uneven and excessively rapid burning of the propellant. In this case we can rule that out.
If the Israelis carried out this attack using a US supplied weapon, then that of course gives the US government an additional incentive to go along with the Israeli explanation. Initially the Israelis were saying that Palestinian Islamic Jihad, aka The Other Team were launching rockets from the car park of the Al Ahli Baptist hospital, using the civilians there as human shields when a rocket exploded and caused the casualties. You could interpret that as an admission that they targeted the car park. Then when they realised their story wasn't credible, they changed it to the present version.
Photographer
JSouthworth
Posts: 1769
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
LightDreams wrote:
New updates on the U.S. intelligence analysis about the Hospital explosion.
They do NOT believe that a missile STRUCK the hospital from the air, based on their aerial surveillance records, etc.
They believe that the Palestinian Islamic Jihad group was trying to launch a rocket (presumably towards Israel) FROM the "protected" area around the hospital (the parking lot), but the rocket failed / exploded when they tried to launch it. What are the problems with this explanation? If it were true, there would be witnesses to the use of the car park park by Islamic Jihad and possibly video evidence. The hospital staff would have objected to it, the UN personnel would have seen it and protested to the Gaza authorities.
In addition it's unlikely that all those people would have just sat around waiting to be killed by the Israelis or by the back blast from the rockets.
We need to know whether the Israelis have been supplied with this missile;
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military … m-114n.htm
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