Photoman754 wrote:
Damm it Click! I have a MM model set for a shoot Monday and I was thinking about a shaving thing. Now it will look like a stole your idea. LOL

Original stuff is difficult isn't it?

Great minds think alike.

What do you plan to shave?

REPhotography wrote:
[Also, as a rule, on sites like this I check out the last date the model logged in.  If its been a long while, I'll just keep moving along.
-Rob

Good point!

It is important to distinguish between inactive models who ignore everyone vs. those that specifically ignore you.

As far as the big picture, the problem is that people who can't tell good photography from bad are a nickel a dozen!

Johns Photoart wrote:
Go back 100 years and artists DID NOT consider photography to be art. It was a "disgrace" to a painter to see a guy with a box click a shutter and get an image instead of working hard using paints and brushes and canvas.

Hee hee, not as so as you state.

Go back a touch further-and you'll find painters (Johannes Vermeer anyone?) that used cameras to "see" in order to improve their paintings/technique...

As for: "artists DID NOT consider photography to be art"...hmmmmm, and a way back then many classical painters did not consider impressionists to be painters (yawn) and on and on...

Change scares and confuses most people.

But it is the engine of the universe........

Eloise wrote:
Try to avoid request like 'You look great. Wanna tfcd?'. Professionnal behaviour is a must. Get a make-up artist and mention him in your offer. Be concise but precise in your ideas. State what you have in mind in a short way. Something like this should be good:

Hi Model X,

I am looking for someone like you to participate in my victorian doll project. You have very nice angular features and the very fair, flawless skin tone I need. A stylist and make-up artist will be there, so you do not have to worry about clothes, hair and make-up. I had in mind to shoot outside in XYZ park, in about two weeks.

I'll give you a copy of the photos on a cd, and I'll retouch 3 for you for each outfit. Are you interested? What would be the best time for you?

Drop me a line,

Photographer X

That way, they have a pretty good idea of what you want to do. Enough for them to see if they are interested, anyway. If you have trouble finding models for tfcd, try offering paid jobs. This should get you started.

Excellent Advice.

Johns Photoart wrote:
Go back 100 years and artists DID NOT consider photography to be art. It was a "disgrace" to a painter to see a guy with a box click a shutter and get an image instead of working hard using paints and brushes and canvas. Eventually photography did earn it's place in art when the public realized there was an incredible amount of skill needed to create wonderful images- especially when it came to the darkroom. Today, I chuckle when I read posts of "establish photographers" in film putting down digital photographers (GWC). Things change and yet they remain the same. The same thinking continues.
ANYONE can take a photo. And-if wanted- ANYONE can develop film and print images in a darkroom. BUT it takes an accomplished photographer to master it- to develop his/her own style.
The same is true of digital work. ANYONE can use Photoshop or any of the other numerous pieces of software out there BUT not everyone will master it and make it their own. Some photographers put down digital because they can't do it. Some because they haven't tried it. And others because they think it is "hip" to claim you're a film user. I even know some who secretly use digital and CLAIM it is film!
But the times they are-a-changin'. I know- I fought CD's tooth and nail in preference of LP's and 45 records. I lost. Records are the past. Cd's are the current trend and new modes are on the way. The same holds true for photography. Film is becoming more scarce as is photo paper and the chemicals. It's a digital world and you will adjust or become extinct.

Fifteen years ago I went to the Jacob Javis Civic Center in NYC to trade show....one of the exhibits was "digital imaging station"....where a techician was cutting flower flower out of a scanned print....(the scanner was a HUGE drum type)...and pasting them on the other side of the photo....is was so basic but everyone was ooohing and aaahing.....my original thought was ....jeezz...I better learn this....so I sidled up to the reb and inquired about the price of the "digital work station"......"oh!...I can get you into one for about $35,000"...yes, that's right $35 with a thousand......needless to say...I couldn't afford it....but always kept that "digital stuff" in the back of my mind as priorty.....a majority of the photographers around me were laughing and calling this a "gimmick"..."flash in the pan" and "today's must have".........almost all said that film will never die.....

Skip ahead to today....most of the those guys are out of business!....like the painters before them who scoffed at photography .......so take a look at some of today's figures.....9 out of every ten cameras sold in the US is digital.....Agfa a long time film producer no longer produces film......Kodak, the Great Yellow Father in Rochester has scaled back film production 85%......and no longer produces film cameras at all.....

I barely managed to sell off my traditional film cameras both 35mm and medium format before the market dropped out.......I sold all my darkroom equipment to a "novice" who still enjoys the smell of chemicals....stained hands....and squinty eyes from long hours in the darkroom.....

Digital is the only way I shoot.....and it's a pure pleasure.....it increases your profit margin, in my case, 85% over the use of film.....especially medium format....I can do all my own imaging via PhotoShop and no longer have to wait weeks for proofs....enlargments or special orders......couple that with my graphic arts background it has opened up whole new areas that I would never have entered....it has made me so competitive price wise I don't understand how studios that still use film can stay in business.....

Eloise wrote:
Professionnal behaviour is a must. Get a make-up artist and mention him in your offer.

Women are ga-ga over "makeup artists"

I think it's something primal or about affirming their self worth.

My first thought is ... why waste money, time and the distraction of an MUA at a simple photo shoot that's TFP?

What's important for good photos is rich lighting, lines, shadows, expressions, message, composition, impact, etc.

Personally, I would rather a model show up with light makeup. Fresh and clean is better. Heavy foundation, etc., slows me down in photoshop post processing and it does not respond to the richness of light and changes of light like natural skin does.

Furthermore, women continually fussing with makeup and makeup touchups when I'm trying to shoot photos drives me nuts. Then they sweat under the makeup and it looks worse as they layer more on.

In photos all this makeup makes nearly no positive difference at all, and it can really get in the way. The last girl who came here and lathered it on prints out orange and opaque. For the life of me I can't figure out how to compensate for that. She looks like a piece of plastic at a halloween party.

Anyway, try telling that to a woman who wants to be a model.

Women really stress out about makeup. And shoes. And outfit changes. I think that it's more that they want to be pampered like they are at a day spa. It makes them feel beautiful and glamourous.

Frankly, I think it's better to offer a massage therapist than an MUA and perhaps a bottle of champagne with strawberries to motivate the wannabees.

Why not get to the point.

FKVPhotoGraphics wrote:

OUCH!.....I'm in Ocala...but the rocks go far!

Seriously....it's the digital world comming at ya!.....now anyone who picks up do everything, automatic, whiz bang 100 million MEGA PIXEL camera considers themselves a "photographer"......little things like rule of composition....depth of field...learning lighting....f-stops, shutter speeds....and all the million thing you learn as a PROFESSIONAL....go out the window.....all you have to do is spend a few bucks for business cards....have a good rap and BINGO!.....you're a professional photographer.....

And we wonder why models are so skeptical!

I think you need to look at it this way. Some of us study photography and some just wing it. You can tell the difference and I hope the real models can also. This is the same thing that go's on in every line of work. So I think it is better to say there are alot of  Guys With Cameras and then there are a few photographers.

Mike

Click Hamilton wrote:
Women are ga-ga over "makeup artists"

I think it's something primal or about affirming their self worth.

My first thought is ... why waste money, time and the distraction of an MUA at a simple photo shoot that's TFP?

Well said!

The KISS principle should apply to most TFCD shoots.

MUA's have their place in TFCD shoots when they initiate them and provide models that they are familiar with. Then, the point of the shoot is to showcase the MUA's work, with the models being "second fiddle" to a point.

I recently had a very successful shoot of this type with Divine Creations MM# 133006:



In this example, the use of makeup is obvious, and leads to a very distinct image in which the MUA is the "star".

Eloise wrote:
Try to avoid request like 'You look great. Wanna tfcd?'. Professionnal behaviour is a must. Get a make-up artist and mention him in your offer. Be concise but precise in your ideas. State what you have in mind in a short way. Something like this should be good:

Hi Model X,

I am looking for someone like you to participate in my victorian doll project. You have very nice angular features and the very fair, flawless skin tone I need. A stylist and make-up artist will be there, so you do not have to worry about clothes, hair and make-up. I had in mind to shoot outside in XYZ park, in about two weeks.

I'll give you a copy of the photos on a cd, and I'll retouch 3 for you for each outfit. Are you interested? What would be the best time for you?

Drop me a line,

Photographer X

That way, they have a pretty good idea of what you want to do. Enough for them to see if they are interested, anyway. If you have trouble finding models for tfcd, try offering paid jobs. This should get you started.

Wow- this is a pain in the %ss.  This is what amatuer models looking to develop their portfolio expect?  For free? 

-Jose

Jose Luis wrote:

Wow- this is a pain in the %ss.  This is what amatuer models looking to develop their portfolio expect?

-Jose

This is the "dream TFCD request" from a model's point of view. If it was a waterside shoot, I'm sure Cecil B. DeMille would be expected to invoke a dramatic parting in the background.

Eloise wrote:
Try to avoid request like 'You look great. Wanna tfcd?'. Professionnal behaviour is a must. Get a make-up artist and mention him in your offer. Be concise but precise in your ideas. State what you have in mind in a short way. Something like this should be good:

Hi Model X,

I am looking for someone like you to participate in my victorian doll project. You have very nice angular features and the very fair, flawless skin tone I need. A stylist and make-up artist will be there, so you do not have to worry about clothes, hair and make-up. I had in mind to shoot outside in XYZ park, in about two weeks.

I'll give you a copy of the photos on a cd, and I'll retouch 3 for you for each outfit. Are you interested? What would be the best time for you?


Drop me a line,

Photographer X

That way, they have a pretty good idea of what you want to do. Enough for them to see if they are interested, anyway. If you have trouble finding models for tfcd, try offering paid jobs. This should get you started.

While this sounds great you are talking about someone with a big budget.
Certainly beyond most of the admited hobbists here.  Most could not afford
both a MUA, clothes and a stylist.  This for a model who might not even show.
I think if someone wants to really work with someone they will.  Whats offered
via a TFP is usually just the images and with a model getting sometimes the
high quality shots I see thats a great deal.  We continue to see the same comments about models not coming to shoots, no call and even no response
to e-mails.  What does that suggest?  It really isn't your work, its not about
what you are offering.  Its more about the models.  A model really serious
about shooting will.  I've had models drive hours to work with my average ass
so I know they will do it with other people if they want.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
We continue to see the same comments about models not coming to shoots, no call and even no response
to e-mails.  What does that suggest?  It really isn't your work, its not about
what you are offering.  Its more about the models.  A model really serious
about shooting will.

I think you just nailed it!

This explains a lot, especially to the gung-ho photographers who produce good-quality work and can't understand why more model's aren't interested!

The gung-ho tend to assume that others must be as gung-ho as they are, setting themselves up for disappointment.

In case anyone hasn't noticed, I'm describing myself to a large degree.

rp_photo wrote:
MUA's have their place in TFCD shoots when they initiate them and provide models that they are familiar with. Then, the point of the shoot is to showcase the MUA's work, with the models being "second fiddle" to a point.

Exactly. Same for outfit changes ... only if we are advertising the outfits, and not the model. Same for a lot of things that distract us from the main point, which should be to make the best images we can.

It used to amuse me to see women name their gallery sets as "little black dress" ... or "purple lingerie" etc., or "my this" and "my that"

We should keep our eye on originality, concept, message, presentation, impact, and standing out amongst all the other image and advertising clutter that bombards us every day from all directions.

On the other hand, lots of us do this for fun, so who cares what we do?

Back to my original premise of providing a massage therapist rather than an MUA

Click Hamilton
www.pbase.com/click_hamilton

PS, eyes are the windows to the soul.