-Titania- wrote:

I know very VERY few pro models that will take you up on profit-splitting or other sort of "you'll get paid when WE get paid" sort of ventures, unless they are very very close to the photographer and believe in it.  Those sorts of offers tend to find the response to be a "thank you, but no thank you".

I am invested in every shoot to produce quality, money generating work on my end for the person paying me. How they market it and make money is up to them.

I have nude models coming out of the woodwork and not asking for money. If a model comes to me with a way to actually MAKE money, believe me I'm much more willing to pay her.

It still amazes me that you gals haven't figured this out. Nudity is everywhere here. Marketing ability? Now THAT is a rare quantity and worth a hell of a lot more to me.

If you want to get paid, help me find the money to do so.

Lumigraphics wrote:

I have nude models coming out of the woodwork and not asking for money. If a model comes to me with a way to actually MAKE money, believe me I'm much more willing to pay her.

It still amazes me that you gals haven't figured this out. Nudity is everywhere here. Marketing ability? Now THAT is a rare quantity and worth a hell of a lot more to me.

If you want to get paid, help me find the money to do so.

Haven't been following the whole thread, but read this last post and had to comment.
SO agree.

If you come to me for trade or something - well, it might happen.

Come to me with a business venture proposal, and you really have my attention.
Know a magazine/website, etc. that is in need of submissions and pays decent?
Have an "in" with some kind of publication, band, etc. Who wants you, is willing to pay and you need a photographer and a makeup artist to round out the package?
I'm all ears.

In fact, models can sometimes have an easier time putting together these deals because the client already knows the face/body of the person who's putting together the team.

In fact, one model just approached me about such a project.
She's great, and will always get priority with me.
There's a lot of pretty faces on MM, but pretty faces with business acumen - that's something!

Shandra Stark wrote:
With so many people up in arms about the economy and its relation to art/hobbies, I thought now would be a great time to share ideas about budgeting, planning...etc.

I will share ideas about the most frequent thing most people complain about on this site.  Feel free to  add clever solutions to other problems.  I have five solutions to one problem.  What problems can you help clear up for people, regarding budgets?:

P: Oh my gosh, your rates are too high.  I can't afford them.  We'll never work together!!!  *cry*  *pout* *bitch*

S:

1- Send an offer anyway. 

If all you have to offer is a sandwich and $50, tell the model/photographer/whatever that exact thing.  You never know!  I am more insulted when someone throws a pity party, and says "You'll never work with little old me.", than I am if someone says "Hey, listen, money is really tight, but I really respect your work and was wondering if you'd accept such and such."

2- Get someone to split the cost.

Just because a model doesn't say "I'll work with more than one person at once" on his or her profile, does not mean that person isn't willing to make exceptions.  I'd be more than happy to shoot with one or two extra photographers, for my same rate.  Split it and save yourself money.  Some models may not be cool with that, but you'll never know if you don't ask.

a- I don't have any friends!  How can I get someone to split the cost, omgz!   
           

*Get on model mayhem and start networking!  It's what you're here to do! "Hey, Jerry, I've admired your work for a while.  I see that Susie Nudie Pants is  visiting soon, and was wondering if you'd want to shoot her with me.  Awesomesauce studios is only $30 an hour, and we could go out for drinks after to talk about the shoot.

*Put up an event thread.  Have a get together at a studio or restaurant, and get to know your fellow photographers.  Talk, shoot landscapes, hang out.  Start a club...whatever you need to do.  Then when Susie Nudie Pants is coming your way, you have a pool of people to choose from.  If Susie already lives near you, or has no plans for travel- ask!!  "Hi, blah blah day of shooting, blah blah, split cost...blah blah what is your rate.  Sincerely, Jerry"

*Join meet-up.com

3- Host a workshop

Whatever this means for you, do it.  If you don't know how, ask the model; you'd be surprised how many of us know how to pull an event together. 

Don't have anything to teach?  GET CREATIVE!  Take photographers on a hiking trip, with model en-tow.  Take them boating, take them around your land, have a crazy shooting party at your studio.  Get people together to give you money and shoot the model, and pay the model his or her day rate from those earnings.  Negotiate how much time said model will shoot with you exclusively.

4- Barter

What do you have that this model may want? 

Examples:

clothes
food
transit passes
room and board (have hotel points?  send a model instead of yourself)
books
gift cards
furniture
electronics
web site
concert/movie/theatre tickets

...etc

Own a bowling alley?  A hair salon?  Pastry shop?  Have your own nightclub or restaurant?

Do you teach skydiving lessons?  Guitar?  Salsa dancing?

Use what you've got.

5- Plan ahead

I never contact a photographer spur of the moment, if I know that they are paid only.  I've always asked WAY before I ever expected to be in their area, or even if I had NO PLANS of being in their area ever.  That way I know how much I'd need to save, should the opportunity present itself, or should I decide to take charge and go now.

Start a shooting fund, for any necessary photography-related stuff. 

Start saving the way that works best  for you, even if you have NO model/mua/project in mind. 


Maybe for you this means $10 week.  Maybe it means never spending your five dollar bills.  Maybe it means saving all your tips from your restaurant gig.

Make it happen.  Some of you are getting in your own way.

All of that is great, I like your thoughts, but on this site most people can't pick up a phone and call, which is the most important thing when trying to get something done.

Mercy wrote:
Amazing. Just Amazing

~Rachael Jeanne

Seriously- somebody needed to say this!

Ms Susie B wrote:
Seriously- somebody needed to say this!

Ms Susie, you are just who I thought of when Shandra mentioned Susie Nudie Pants. And that is a compliment!

OP, kudos to you. That was a well-executed and thought-out post.

-Titania- wrote:

I know very VERY few pro models that will take you up on profit-splitting or other sort of "you'll get paid when WE get paid" sort of ventures, unless they are very very close to the photographer and believe in it.  Those sorts of offers tend to find the response to be a "thank you, but no thank you".

I am invested in every shoot to produce quality, money generating work on my end for the person paying me. How they market it and make money is up to them.

+1

traveling/pro models do not have the time to market images.
that is not our realm of work.

i made the mistake of shooting under this sort of agreement once and have seen NOTHING from it, and it was a 4 hour shoot, with 3 hours of commute time! that's a day of my valuable time wasted for nothing, no thanks.

///Leah

-Titania- wrote:
I know very VERY few pro models that will take you up on profit-splitting or other sort of "you'll get paid when WE get paid" sort of ventures, unless they are very very close to the photographer and believe in it.  Those sorts of offers tend to find the response to be a "thank you, but no thank you".

I am invested in every shoot to produce quality, money generating work on my end for the person paying me. How they market it and make money is up to them.

-velocity- wrote:
+1

traveling/pro models do not have the time to market images.
that is not our realm of work.

i made the mistake of shooting under this sort of agreement once and have seen NOTHING from it, and it was a 4 hour shoot, with 3 hours of commute time! that's a day of my valuable time wasted for nothing, no thanks.

///Leah

Well, I can think of at least one way that it might work. 

More generally, I see both sides of this issue, which is an unfortunate side effect of the economics right now.

In my mind, there are basically three reasons a photographer would pay a nude model.

1. The best reason is that the work will be sold for enough to cover the model's fees and leave a good profit margin.  Unfortunately, this is rarer and more difficult than ever before, it seems.  Especially if one's area of interest is "artistic nudes" rather than porn.  Of course, photographers in this category typically can get very talented models to do trades with them, due to the quality of the images, and the appeal of publication and gallery exhibitions.

2. To buid a portfolio (or for personal artistic expression in the case of those with significant other resources).  Many of us have chosen this path; paying good to great models as a way to get better portfolios quicker.  But, at a certain point, it has accomplished what it can.  In addition to serious novices, I have the opportunity to work with a lot of models who typically get paid, on a trade basis.  Overally, I haven't found that the ones who still insist on pay are more capable than the models I do work with.  That, combined with significant financial stress, makes my decision for me.  Also, for lack of a better way of putting it, I prefer working with models who are interested in creating art with me, rather than only interested in the pay.

3. To see a woman naked.  Obviously, in some cases, this reason is the whole basis for someone's being a "photographer"; but I missed out on it.  I enjoy the beauty of the female form, but I'm too focused on the image I'm trying to create to get "turned on" by a nude model.  I know that for many paid models, carefully selected "GWC" types are a useful part of a business model.  As long as the model understands what she's dealing with, I can't see why that choice would be critisized.

Ultimately, I believe, some models will continue to command payment, by being so skilled, reliable, attractive, and marketable that the investment is justified.  Many others will likely be able to make money, but will have to make some adjustments, as photographers have needed to.  Others will find that few if any serious photographers are willing to pay them.  None of those categories are new, of course, but sadly, the later ones are growing.

Art of the nude wrote:
2. To buid a portfolio (or for personal artistic expression in the case of those with significant other resources).  Many of us have chosen this path; paying good to great models as a way to get better portfolios quicker.  But, at a certain point, it has accomplished what it can.  In addition to serious novices, I have the opportunity to work with a lot of models who typically get paid, on a trade basis.  Overally, I haven't found that the ones who still insist on pay are more capable than the models I do work with.  That, combined with significant financial stress, makes my decision for me.  Also, for lack of a better way of putting it, I prefer working with models who are interested in creating art with me, rather than only interested in the pay.

+++1.

My position on paying models is if I have to pay I'm going to get the most experienced model for my money.  In other words if you been modeling for 3 months don't expect to get paid the same as someone who's been modeling for 3 years.   After all if its going to cost me the same amount of money it only make sense to work with the more experienced model.   
Also I don't believe it has to be all or nothing IE TFCD only vs Pay only rather I've found that a nice balance can be reached between the two depending on skill level of the individuals involved and each individual's needs.

Shandra Stark wrote:
P: Oh my gosh, your rates are too high.  I can't afford them.  We'll never work together!!!  *cry*  *pout* *bitch*

S:
1- Send an offer anyway. 
2- Get someone to split the cost.
3- Host a workshop
4- Barter
5- Plan ahead

All good ideas.  Here's another:

Learn negotiation techniques.  There is no set price until there is an agreement.  The first offer is usually not the best offer.  Learn to negotiate a better price.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

All good ideas.  Here's another:

Learn negotiation techniques.  There is no set price until there is an agreement.  The first offer is usually not the best offer.  Learn to negotiate a better price.

I wouldn't include that on the list. In the OP's original list, everyone benefits.  The negotiating tips listed in this thread don't guarantee that.  I'd say negotiating is a different thread.

S de Varax wrote:
good post

perhaps even a great post

Shandra Stark wrote:
bump.

Ms Shandra Stark,
If  your  going introduce common sense,  and  logic into these posting your gonna have  to  leave.

Very well written, and though out...BRAVO

Mcary wrote:

+++1.

My position on paying models is if I have to pay I'm going to get the most experienced model for my money.  In other words if you been modeling for 3 months don't expect to get paid the same as someone who's been modeling for 3 years.   After all if its going to cost me the same amount of money it only make sense to work with the more experienced model.   
Also I don't believe it has to be all or nothing IE TFCD only vs Pay only rather I've found that a nice balance can be reached between the two depending on skill level of the individuals involved and each individual's needs.

choose your words a little more wisely, as experience is a weird concept in this field. as with in any other profession, it's determined by how much work you do, not how long you've been doing it, and i know there are TONS of models out there who shoot once or twice a month that have been doing it "for years." comparably, there are young models (such as myself) who have done 50+ shoots in less than half a year, due to a high demand and success rate.

experience is relative and has nothing to do with actual time. however, i think you probably have good enough taste to pick out both the experienced AND talented, even though i think the latter is way more important in decision making like this than the former.

///Leah

J Henry wrote:
Thanks for starting this thread, there's some really good advice here.    Makes me think there's more I could be doing.

That's the point. 

Some people give up so quickly, and...why would I want to work with an unambitious quitter?

Go get that model!!

JSVPhotography wrote:
Shandra, you are too cool. Come back and have some pizza and a half of a sandwich sometime.

PIZZA!

Nomnomnom.

Andrew Thomas Designs wrote:
6 - Get a Day job or look for a day job.

Sometimes we have to provide an income to support our hobby, or add income to supplement our hobby, or find a second job to support ourselves.

Just because someone wants to model dosen't mean they can drop everything else and feel they have a right to get paid for it. Same goes if someone wants to take pictures it doesn't mean we have to give them business. If someone tries to do either of those things and can't make it then it dosen't mean we have to feel sorry for them.

I agree, kind of;

I work at a restaurant 2-4 shifts a week, just so I have something taxable and can pick up shifts if business is really slow; I'm one of the top 3 employees and my manager has no problem putting me on 40 hours a week if I need to.

This makes it easier to deal when I can't book enough modeling or dancing work, and makes taxes a LOT less painful. Just deduct extra so you don't owe the IRS an arm and a leg

Also, learn how to take time off so you don't burn out and/ or stop loving what you do.

Awesome awesome thread, that's all I could think of adding that was of any use.

Shandra Stark wrote:
With so many people up in arms about the economy and its relation to art/hobbies, I thought now would be a great time to share ideas about budgeting, planning...etc.

I will share ideas about the most frequent thing most people complain about on this site.  Feel free to  add clever solutions to other problems.  I have five solutions to one problem.  What problems can you help clear up for people, regarding budgets?:

P: Oh my gosh, your rates are too high.  I can't afford them.  We'll never work together!!!  *cry*  *pout* *bitch*

S:

1- Send an offer anyway. 

If all you have to offer is a sandwich and $50, tell the model/photographer/whatever that exact thing.  You never know!  I am more insulted when someone throws a pity party, and says "You'll never work with little old me.", than I am if someone says "Hey, listen, money is really tight, but I really respect your work and was wondering if you'd accept such and such."

2- Get someone to split the cost.

Just because a model doesn't say "I'll work with more than one person at once" on his or her profile, does not mean that person isn't willing to make exceptions.  I'd be more than happy to shoot with one or two extra photographers, for my same rate.  Split it and save yourself money.  Some models may not be cool with that, but you'll never know if you don't ask.

a- I don't have any friends!  How can I get someone to split the cost, omgz!   
           

*Get on model mayhem and start networking!  It's what you're here to do! "Hey, Jerry, I've admired your work for a while.  I see that Susie Nudie Pants is  visiting soon, and was wondering if you'd want to shoot her with me.  Awesomesauce studios is only $30 an hour, and we could go out for drinks after to talk about the shoot.

*Put up an event thread.  Have a get together at a studio or restaurant, and get to know your fellow photographers.  Talk, shoot landscapes, hang out.  Start a club...whatever you need to do.  Then when Susie Nudie Pants is coming your way, you have a pool of people to choose from.  If Susie already lives near you, or has no plans for travel- ask!!  "Hi, blah blah day of shooting, blah blah, split cost...blah blah what is your rate.  Sincerely, Jerry"

*Join meet-up.com

3- Host a workshop

Whatever this means for you, do it.  If you don't know how, ask the model; you'd be surprised how many of us know how to pull an event together. 

Don't have anything to teach?  GET CREATIVE!  Take photographers on a hiking trip, with model en-tow.  Take them boating, take them around your land, have a crazy shooting party at your studio.  Get people together to give you money and shoot the model, and pay the model his or her day rate from those earnings.  Negotiate how much time said model will shoot with you exclusively.

4- Barter

What do you have that this model may want? 

Examples:

clothes
food
transit passes
room and board (have hotel points?  send a model instead of yourself)
books
gift cards
furniture
electronics
web site
concert/movie/theatre tickets

...etc

Own a bowling alley?  A hair salon?  Pastry shop?  Have your own nightclub or restaurant?

Do you teach skydiving lessons?  Guitar?  Salsa dancing?

Use what you've got.

5- Plan ahead

I never contact a photographer spur of the moment, if I know that they are paid only.  I've always asked WAY before I ever expected to be in their area, or even if I had NO PLANS of being in their area ever.  That way I know how much I'd need to save, should the opportunity present itself, or should I decide to take charge and go now.

Start a shooting fund, for any necessary photography-related stuff. 

Start saving the way that works best  for you, even if you have NO model/mua/project in mind. 


Maybe for you this means $10 week.  Maybe it means never spending your five dollar bills.  Maybe it means saving all your tips from your restaurant gig.

Make it happen.  Some of you are getting in your own way.

ChloeA wrote:
i can only afford to do this on the side and to build up my portfolio i've got to negotiate and work TFP where i can but otherwise photographers can be expensive.

Actually I looked at your profile and you have pretty good height and measurements, you can walk into a few agencies and see what they tell you. No doubt your age is a hurdle, but it's worth a try anyway. You do not need a portfolio to walk into an agency.